Part I Revisions (Haku, Neji, Naruto), and Tobirama was there too

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

The Neji thing has been dealt with, so there’s no need to talk about that. Otherwise, go ahead.

k

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Tracer, this is the post responding to a few things in the OP-
Haku - Zabuza's statement is unreliable. He had severely underestimated kakashi already iirc, not to mention that sasuke was already a match for haku. haku only had hax and durability of his jutsu over sasuke. aside from that, they were even. he didnt want to kill them, but its not like he wasnt going all out. holding back is different from that. his 4th war showings are complete outliers. in fact, his war self is an edo, making him overall weaker than normal. him blocking an attack from guy and lee is like saying that he is physically stronger (by far) than gaara's sand. humongous outlier. not even a consideration. not to mention speed. he is CLEARLY below KN0 naruto, even if just by a little bit. kakashi tho, was fighting obito who could react to KCM naruto, who could blitz kisame and base killer bee. see the problem here? He is not 7C (for one, nothing even warrants this in the first place. he has no jutsu to put himself there at all, so even if he fought 7C characters like that (and it wasnt an outlier) he wouldnt scale to them). his AP is barely 8B, since the only thing he has on him is his ice tanking sasuke's fireball. he cannot even use that for an actual attack, so that by itself is iffy. he is also about as fast as sasuke, with KN0 lvl reaction time. him reacting to lee and guy yet again makes him faster than gaara's sand. guess what, he isnt.
KN0 Naruto- ngl, he has the same problem as haku here. he has the chakra amount, the speed (kinda) and the strength, but literally no jutsu to put him in 7C by this point. he simply cannot do anything aside from punching and kicking by now. now, him using kurama's chakra later in the series is different, since naruto himself is way stronger than he was when he fought haku. the one who fought kimimaru >>> the one who fought haku. not to mention, the kurama chakra amp is also stronger since the seal is weaker. u cant just fuse him into one KN0 key lmao wtf
Neji- i heard what u said, but neji isnt stronger than lee, lee just could never beat him. and neji is not > hiashi. he was matching hiashi by the time of the 4th war. in fact, in part 1, hiashi casually 1 shot one of the strongest jonin's alive by that point. neji is far from that, considering the fact that he barely beat kidomaru, who is half as strong as a normal jonin himself. and it didnt TAKE 4 jonin to stop neji. we just saw 4 of them doing it. u wanna tell me that neji > kakashi, or neji > guy? nah
Naruto- i love how we ignore the fact that he can make 200 or so clones that are equal to him in strength, just with less chakra. he can land 200 8C punches in a second, but nobody seems to add that to his key. how do u think he beat transformed gaara?
Tobirama- yeah, he is factually faster than even sage mode hashirama too, whom madara is likely as fast as. madara then gains sage mode amps, and an EDO tobirama (considerably weaker than normal) could still match him in speed.

please read this with on open, instead of being in denial just cuz i dont agree with everything. thanks.

 

[LordTracer]

Zabuza's statement is unreliable. He had severely underestimated kakashi already iirc, not to mention that sasuke was already a match for haku. haku only had hax and durability of his jutsu over sasuke. aside from that, they were even

Yes, Haku is inconsistent. That is why the proposal is to give him two tiers.

that. his 4th war showings are complete outliers.

He has more feats of being 7-C/MHS+ than he does of being 8-B/Supersonic. So...

him blocking an attack from guy and lee is like saying that he is physically stronger (by far) than gaara's sand. humongous outlier. not even a consideration

What does Gaara have to do with anything here?

he is CLEARLY below KN0 naruto, even if just by a little bit. kakashi tho, was fighting obito who could react to KCM naruto, who could blitz kisame and base killer bee. see the problem here?

Are you... are you trying to equate War Arc Kakashi to Part I Kakashi?

He is not 7C (for one, nothing even warrants this in the first place. he has no jutsu to put himself there at all, so even if he fought 7C characters like that (and it wasnt an outlier) he wouldnt scale to them)

That’s not how scaling works.

but literally no jutsu to put him in 7C by this point. he simply cannot do anything aside from punching and kicking by now

That doesn’t prevent him from being 7-C, that’s not how scaling works.

the one who fought kimimaru >>> the one who fought haku.

Based on? He was completely feral and had more Kurama-like features against Haku than against Kimimaro.

u cant just fuse him into one KN0 key lmao wtf

Literally nobody said this, I don’t know what you’re laughing at.

how do u think he beat transformed gaara?

He didn’t beat him. Gaara was literally unable to move when Naruto and his clones attacked him, and he was amped.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Yes, Haku is inconsistent. That is why the proposal is to give him two tiers.

He has more feats of being 7-C/MHS+ than he does of being 8-B/Supersonic. So...

What does Gaara have to do with anything here?

Are you... are you trying to equate War Arc Kakashi to Part I Kakashi?

That’s not how scaling works.

That doesn’t prevent him from being 7-C, that’s not how scaling works.

Based on? He was completely feral and had more Kurama-like features against Haku than against Kimimaro.

Literally nobody said this, I don’t know what you’re laughing at.

He didn’t beat him. Gaara was literally unable to move when Naruto and his clones attacked him, and he was amped.

1- k, still disagree
2- k, still disagree
3- scaling. if Edo haku is strong enough to block lee's attack, then he is physically stronger than gaara's sand. gaara's sand < PTS lee < shippuden lee < 4th lee < edo haku < alive haku - thats what we would get out this scaling chain. and its wrong.
4-, no it was a continuation of the scaling thing. if haku had all those feats, he would be pretty much on par with kakashi regarding speed, and thats impossible, since haku < KN0 naruto. 4th war kakashi tho, was fighting an obito who could react to KCM naruto, who could blitz kisame and base bee. KCM naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KN0 naruto in speed. period.
5- hmm, actually yeah, it does. its just that its something the site uses, but nobody says anything about. how can he be 7C if he cannot perform anything to dish out that energy? its really simple, but the site is God to yall, so it is what it is.
6- he was more feral than when naruto was using bijuu mode too. is KN0 > bijuu mode now? be smart now please. i dont want this to keep dragging on, im trying to make the scaling better, not worse.
7- he beat a gaara who was covered in his sand while amped by shukaku's chakra. same sand that could **** a forest up btw.

 

[LordTracer]

and its wrong

Okay, says you. Based on actual feats, it’s correct. And you’re trying to argue scaling against a character that has been determined to be inconsistent as if it’ll change anything. Although you apparently disagree with the idea of Haku being inconsistent so I don’t know why you’re even trying to have this conversation.

he would be pretty much on par with kakashi regarding speed

With Part I Kakashi, yes. War Arc Kakashi, no. Only his ice mirrors would scale to War Arc Kakashi.

be smart now please

Cool it with the sarcasm, alright. Your opinion is not the end all be all here. Also Bijuu Mode makes Naruto look damn near exactly like Kurama, it is by far more feral looking.

i dont want this to keep dragging on

He says after writing a massive brick of a post after basically everyone was in agreement.

he beat a gaara who was covered in his sand while amped by shukaku's chakra

So you’re just gonna ignore the fact that A. Naruto was amped. B. He had to use literally of his chakra. C. Gaara was incapable of moving.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm on LordTracer's side with this one.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Okay, says you. Based on actual feats, it’s correct. And you’re trying to argue scaling against a character that has been determined to be inconsistent as if it’ll change anything. Although you apparently disagree with the idea of Haku being inconsistent so I don’t know why you’re even trying to have this conversation.

With Part I Kakashi, yes. War Arc Kakashi, no. Only his ice mirrors would scale to War Arc Kakashi.

Cool it with the sarcasm, alright. Your opinion is not the end all be all here. Also Bijuu Mode makes Naruto look damn near exactly like Kurama, it is by far more feral looking.

He says after writing a massive brick of a post after basically everyone was in agreement.

So you’re just gonna ignore the fact that A. Naruto was amped. B. He had to use literally of his chakra. C. Gaara was incapable of moving.

1- yeah, cuz there is no need for two keys since haku isnt there at all lol
2- wait, so he is equal to sasuke, can barely react to KN0 naruto, but is equal to part 1 kakashi in speed? oof alright
3- no no, feral =/= kurama. bijuu mode doenst look feral at all. it looks glowy, with slit eye lids. KN0 looks more wild and mounter like... u could say, almost feral in a sense.
4- i mean, do u know of any shorter ways to reply to something that is also a brick post? do tell, im listening. ps i dont care is the pope agreed, still wrong in my eyes.
5- did i say that? damn, my old man memory attacks again. i could sworn i didnt say that at all. oh well. but anyhow, do any of those things change what i said?

 

[LordTracer]

wait, so he is equal to sasuke, can barely react to KN0 naruto, but is equal to part 1 kakashi in speed? oof alright

This is literally the point of him having two ratings. He is ‘At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+.’ Supersonic is for keeping up with Sasuke and Naruto (while holding back) and MHS+ is for the various examples of him keeping up with people on that level. This should’ve been obvious.

no no, feral =/= kurama. bijuu mode doenst look feral at all.

It looks like a giant fox. The definition of feral is “resembling a wild animal.” A giant chakra fox resembles an animal more than a twelve year old boy on his hands and feet.

ps i dont care is the pope agreed, still wrong in my eyes.

Good for you, all of your points were either addressed in the OP or in the discussion thread where I first brought this up.

did i say that? damn, my old man memory attacks again. i could sworn i didnt say that at all.

I literally didn’t claim that you said anything, you can stop being sarcastic now.

do any of those things change what i said?

Yes. Base Naruto still doesn’t scale to PT Gaara. At best, maybe Naruto can get a key for his amp that let him (and his thousands of clones) fight a PT Gaara that was incapable of defending himself.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

This is literally the point of him having two ratings. He is ‘At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+.’ Supersonic is for keeping up with Sasuke and Naruto (while holding back) and MHS+ is for the various examples of him keeping up with people on that level. This should’ve been obvious.

It looks like a giant fox. The definition of feral is “resembling a wild animal.” A giant chakra fox resembles an animal more than a twelve year old boy on his hands and feet.

Good for you, all of your points were either addressed in the OP or in the discussion thread where I first brought this up.

I literally didn’t claim that you said anything, you can stop being sarcastic now.

Yes. Base Naruto still doesn’t scale to PT Gaara. At best, maybe Naruto can get a key for his amp that let him (and his thousands of clones) fight a PT Gaara that was incapable of defending himself.

1- i explained how 'holding back', and 'not going for the kill' are two different things, but somehow, u still brought this up. holly molly. u didnt consider anything i said, whatsoever. astounding.
2- oh, i call bijuu mode him with the chakra mode, but not in his kurama avatar. i call his kurama avatar kurama mode. its from my comicvine days lol thats how they used to name it there.
3- somehow u couldnt even counter the 'holding back' thing above, but u still want me to read the whole discussion? bruh
4- problem solved then, since i didnt claim that.
5- i didnt say base naruto, i said 200 or whatever the **** amount of punches can scale to gaara's sand, since he 100% damaged a shukaku amped gaara (moving or not doesnt matter, since the sand is the same, and its just as amped by shukaku as it was before or after). actually, iirc, in the anime, he wasnt even amped. the chakra he used was blue, so its his own power lol

 

[LordTracer]

holly molly. u didnt consider anything i said, whatsoever. astounding.

If this is how you’re gonna act, why should I even bother with you at this point. Why should I address your claim that doesn’t have actual evidence behind it? If Haku isn’t going for the kill, then he’s not trying his utmost since he’s holding himself back from killing.

but u still want me to read the whole discussion? bruh

If you intend to deliver input, then yes, you should read the discussion so you don’t do what you’re doing now, aka, making points that were already addressed.

i didnt say base naruto, i said 200 or whatever the **** amount of punches can scale to gaara's sand

I reiterate, Naruto was amped, using every last drop of his chakra and had thousands of clones against a Gaara that couldn’t defend himself. If you want to give Naruto a key for his amp, you can make your own thread later. But as the keys are now, Konoha Crush Naruto, aka, the one that was getting dunked on by Neji, should not scale to PT Gaara.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

If this is how you’re gonna act, why should I even bother with you at this point. Why should I address your claim that doesn’t have actual evidence behind it? If Haku isn’t going for the kill, then he’s not trying his utmost since he’s holding himself back from killing.

If you intend to deliver input, then yes, you should read the discussion so you don’t do what you’re doing now, aka, making points that were already addressed.

I reiterate, Naruto was amped, using every last drop of his chakra and had thousands of clones against a Gaara that couldn’t defend himself. If you want to give Naruto a key for his amp, you can make your own thread later. But as the keys are now, Konoha Crush Naruto, aka, the one that was getting dunked on by Neji, should not scale to PT Gaara.

"if this is how ur gonna act" ngl, u couldnt sound any more motherly right now. i mean, if u wanna not address them, go ahead. there's a reason that this is the first CRT i even commented in, in like, a year lol every time is the same insane ass ideas. the clear idea in the manga is that KN0 naruto >> Haku, but somehow, u want to scale him to someone who is far above said KN0 naruto.

he was amped by his own power? wow, ok. see, this isnt fairy tail. there is no love/friendship amp here. never was. he just focused his chakra. he didnt make anymore of it. he didnt acquire any more chakra than what he already had.
i kinda find it funny that u said that, because neji, when pissed, used all his might to counter naruto using kurama's chakra, and he kinda won the clash contest there. i could easily say that it was the same amount that he was using when he fought haku. u could say "lol no, he had no marks, no kurama eyes, no nothing" and i will say "neither did KCM naruto" this would put neji instantly above haku, by a lot. thing is tho, its not the case at all, now, is it? neji is not strong enough to stop lee's kicks (likely much stronger than PTS lee's kicks, mind u), much less strong enough to take them head on, when naruto himself could knock him down with a single one. this also instantly disproves the idea that neji is more powerful than lee in the first place. he just knows how to stop chakra flow, and without chakra flow, lee's gates simply cant be used. it seems to be very simple to me. not to mention, the idea that lee used the gates (anything around 3rd or higher) is honestly very ridiculous to me. he wouldve gone to a hospital, or wouldve been out of commission if he were to seriously fight while using them without having mastered them yet. i think that we are to assume that neji > first or so gated lee, and nothing more than that. i can already hear the "hur dur no proof" lol

anyhow, this will be my last post here, so ill reiterate my first shit:

for haku-
zabuza is not reliable. he underestimated kakashi before, and did the same thing for literally every other member of team 7, iirc.
haku used almost fatal attacks on them, and couldve let sasuke bleed to death if he wanted to, but because he didnt want to kill them, it means he was holding back his strength? i disagree. he was not holding back, he was just not going for the kill.
every single 4th war edo showing of his is a huge outlier. if it werent, then it would be something like this: Haku > edo Haku ~ 4th war kakashi ~ obito ~ reaction speed on the level of KCM naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KN0 naruto > haku > edo haku ~ 4th war kakashi ~ obito, and on and on and on.

KN0 naruto-
people need to understand that:
A) naruto grows stronger as the show progresses, so him using KN0 by his fight with kimimaru is much more powerful than him KN0 against Haku, for example
and
B) because the seal weakens with time, more of kurama's chakra is leaked when he uses KN0, making it stronger every time he uses it. him using it against kimimaru is much more powerful than him using it agaisnt haku, for example.
Therefore, if we are to have a KN0 key, lets not fuse it into 1, but maybe make one for each of his arcs.

Neji-
Neji is not more powerful than lee, he just beat lee beforehand. both have gotten much stronger since their last fight (i.e. neji learned kaiten, literally his most powerful jutsu yet). there is also the fact that the likelihood that lee used any of the stronger gates is very low. he wouldve been injured in a fight, maybe even severely. in fact, guy punched him the face and knocked him out just for trying to show the lotus to team 7, so him using anything aside from the 1st against neji in a fight is very impossible to me, specially in a training fight, and not a serious one.
Neji is also not jonin level. just because we saw 4 jonin holding him, doenst mean he is equal to, or close to any of them. jiraya had to stop 4 tailed naruto in his ranpage, but that doesnt mean that 4 tailed naruto = sage mode jiraya. not to mention the fact that he almost died trying to beat kidomaru, who was half as strong as any of them jonin who stopped neji against hinata.

thats it. good luck guys. be smart when doing this shit please.

 

[LordTracer]

Haku > edo Haku ~ 4th war kakashi

It’s literally only Haku’s ice mirrors that scale to Kakashi, not Haku’s base reactions.

KN0 naruto >> Haku, but somehow, u want to scale him to someone who is far above said KN0 naruto.

Nobody said Haku > KN0, and Haku isn’t being scaled to anybody above KN0.

Therefore, if we are to have a KN0 key, lets not fuse it into 1, but maybe make one for each of his arcs

Nobody ever suggested to make KN0 one key. What you are suggesting (giving a KN0 key for each arc), is what the profiles already do.

he was amped by his own power

The manga narration literally says, and I quote; “To protect someone important... Naruto becomes even stronger!”

 

[LordTracer]

Anyways, this thread is basically over. All that’s needed is a staff member to approve the Haku, Naruto and Tobirama changes.

 

[Metalija]

Naruto was getting amped by the Will of Fire in his fight against Gaara.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, everyone pretty much agrees on Tobirama, Haku (which is already a compromise anyway, so that's good), and the KN0 stuff.

I wanna point out that the Tobirama upgrade is quite consistent with his feats that Tracer already pointed out in the OP. He consistently kept up with Juubito, even more than Minato and Naruto on average. He tagged and reacted to Juubito multiple times, which involved movement speed as well such as when he placed the tag and the explosive tags on Obito, even before anyone could react. Or how he saved Naruto, Sasuke, and Minato from Obito's TSO before they could properly react.
I also think Madara's statement should be taken seriously due to Madara having zero reasons to lie about Tobirama or overly praise him, because as we all know Tobirama is probably the person Madara hates the most lol. He's also not exactly prone to praising people, so I really don't think he was exaggerating here.
For all these reasons, and what Tracer already went over, I really don't think the Tobirama upgrade should be controversial at all.

As for Haku, I would like to point out that he technically has more Jonin level feats and statements than he does for scaling to Genin Sasuke, so technically the genin scaling is the outlier imo. That being said, due to the controversial nature of Haku's upgrades in the past, and the somewhat inconsistent nature of his portrayal, I think the compromise suggestion that Tracer made is fair.

 

[Metalija]

Not only does Haku have more Jonin level feats and statements, but his genin level feats are when he is holding back severly. So if it was up to me I would just have him at 7-C and MHS+ period. But I guess that we can compromise and have 2 keys.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Not only does Haku have more Jonin level feats and statements, but his genin level feats are when he is holding back severly. So if it was up to me I would just have him at 7-C and MHS+ period. But I guess that we can compromise and have 2 keys.

I agree.

 

[LordTracer]

@Damage3245 Are these upgrades good to go?

 

[Damage3245]

The ones for Haku, Naruto and Tobirama, sure. I'd be against it if it was a 100% upgrade, but the compromise will do.

 

[LordTracer]

Alright then. Editing is still locked for normal users, so you’ll have to apply the changes (unless you could just unlock the pages so I could do it).

 

[Omimi]

About Neji. He was portrayed as superior to base Lee, so Lee developed gates in order to defeat Neji, and you can see that Neji was ******* himself when he saw Lee using gates. So I think that 5th gate Lee is superior to Neji. Also LordTracer you said that Neji clashed with KN0 Naruto, but that Naruto was only using a small amount of Kyuubis chakra, he wasn't in full KN0 like he was against Haku. So I think that Neji should scale to Low 7-C feat that forest of death Naruto performed, while full on KN0 Naruto should be 7-C.

i think Neji was ******* himself when he saw Lee using front lotus ? anyway i probably wrong
and front lotus multiplier>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>first gate multiplier

 

[LordTracer]

It was actually the Reverse Lotus, which Lee only does in the Fifth Gate. And that’s fair, Lee made it pretty clear that he hadn’t actually used it against Neji and had been saving it for him.

 

[Omimi]

I think that drunk Lee fighting base Kimimaro is not an outlier since Guy stated that Lee gains an enormous amp when he is drunk, so much that it took both Guy and Neji in order to restrain him in the past.

if its true than drunk Lee>> 5th gates(?) lee
since neji can help in stooping drunk Lee and not getting stomp by lee he should scale above 5th gate

 

[Metalija]

Neji and Guy restraining Lee was anime only, I though that it was in the manga too, so I made a mistake.

 

[KingTempest]

i think Neji was ******* himself when he saw Lee using front lotus ? anyway i probably wrong
and front lotus multiplier>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>first gate multiplier

It was stated to be a "dozens" of times multiplier, so minimum 24x which is stacked on the first gate 5x multiplier. So that's a 120x multiplier from base, but only from the front lotus.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with Damage's conclusions.

 

[LordTracer]

I am personally fine with Damage's conclusions.

If I can edit them then, I’d need these pages unlocked:

Haku (Naruto)
Naruto Uzumaki (Part I)
Tobirama Senju
Neji Hyuuga
Kimimaro
Sasuke Uchiha (Part I)
Gaara

The main Neji upgrade wasn’t accepted, but he would need to be upgraded to Massively Hypersonic+ in combat speed and reactions for keeping up with KN0 Naruto.

 

[Damage3245]

@LordTracer; since KN0 Naruto is getting a "likely MHS+" speed rating, Neji's would be likely as well.

 

[LordTracer]

@LordTracer; since KN0 Naruto is getting a "likely MHS+" speed rating, Neji's would be likely as well.

Yeah, true. Same with Kimimaro, Gaara and Three-Tomoe Sasuke.

 

[KingTempest]

What would that put their adult versions (for Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara, and Neji)? Sub-rel? Or they stay at the same speed in their growth. Because if they improve, it would cause a long chain of upgrades for the verse.

 

[LordTracer]

What would that put their adult versions (for Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara, and Neji)? Sub-rel? Or they stay at the same speed in their growth. Because if they improve, it would cause a long chain of upgrades for the verse.

No, they’d stay at MHS+.

 

[LordTracer]

Although I believe @Damage3245 wanted to do something about the current speed scaling, which I think is necessary since we have stuff like Part I Kakashi scaling to Kabuto, who is then scaled to Tsunade (even though he’s not on her level at all), who is then scaled to Orochimaru, who is then scaled to Jiraiya, who is then scaled to Konan, so on and so on. The scaling chain is way too long.

 

[LordTracer]

Bump

 

[LordTracer]

Oh, the pages are unlocked now. I will apply the changes.

 

[LordTracer]

All the revisions are done. This thread can be closed now.