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Part I Revisions (Haku, Neji, Naruto), and Tobirama was there too
- Thread starter LordTracer
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- #42
Except it’s not. You’ve given no proof to say it’s wrong, you’re just claiming it is despite the series itself saying otherwise.
Headcanon. Hiashi did not say “A member of the cadet branch has surpassed the main house entirely, except for me.” He said “A member of the cadet branch has surpassed the main branch entirely.” Neji is stronger than Hiashi. Hiashi himself said so, and he said so in an inner monologue. If he was stronger than Neji, why would he lie in his own inner thoughts?
Once again, headcanon ignoring what the actual series says. Lee literally said Neji was the strongest, and he was saving the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus for Neji specifically. If Neji was weak physically, there would be no need for that.
You’re providing no evidence and trying to take that over what the actual manga says and shows.
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- #43
Actually, the Viz translation has Guy say; “When he came to,” referring to Lee. So no, Lee fighting Kimimaro would still be an outlier.
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I didn't say he is weak physically, I said "Neji is not even that strong physically" and he is not as strong as Lee physically. He is strong but not strong enough physically to be above others in AP in your scaling with few exceptions.
You don't need to be stronger than them in AP to defeat someone.
"A member of the cadet branch has surpassed the main branch entirely" - that was for his fighting prowess, not for his physical striking strength.
This is what I got from Viz.
You don't need to be stronger than them in AP to defeat someone.
"A member of the cadet branch has surpassed the main branch entirely" - that was for his fighting prowess, not for his physical striking strength.
This is what I got from Viz.
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@LordTracer, In your scaling chain you wrote that Neji > Kakashi. I would agree only if you are refering to casual Kakashi with no sharingan. Kakashi with sharingan and going all out would still be stronger than Neji.
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- #46
Proof?
I’m well aware of this fact. Except Lee explicitly said stronger and that he was saving the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus just to content with Neji.
Then he would’ve said that Neji surpassed the main branch in skill. Not that he surpassed the main branch entirely.
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- #47
If that’s what you wanna say, sure, that would still be 7-C. Kakashi’s Sharingan is always active, remember, he just can’t use its abilities while it’s covered.
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Fighting prowess and skill don't = to AP. Someone from a lower tier could beat someone from higher thanks to their figthing sytle, techniques, skills or powers. Same situation is here for Neji. His Gentle fist is helping him to get over higher in AP characters.
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I think this is a great point. Rock Lee points out that Neji doesn't need to hit his opponents with great force to have a serious effect on them. With his Gentle Fist he just needs to graze them.
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- #50
I literally never said that fighting prowess and skill are equal to AP. And no, Neji is not in the same situation. You’re ignoring what the manga directly says. Lee says that Neji is stronger than him. He was saving the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus, two things that amp AP and speed, specifically for Neji.
Hiashi says, in his own inner thoughts, that Neji has surpassed the main branch entirely. Not just in skill, not just in fighting prowess, entirely.
The definition of entirely is; “to the full or entire extent.” If Neji was only superior in fighting skill, he would not have surpassed them to “the full or entire extent,” and therefore would not meet up with what Hiashi said.
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- #51
Yes, and Lee also blatantly says that Neji is stronger than him and that he needs the Fifth Gate/Reverse Lotus for him. Nobody here is arguing that Neji’s higher skill means he should have higher AP. It’s that the manga is blatantly referring to strength as well, not skill.
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Stronger doesn't need to be in the literal sense of striking power. Should we also take the case of Kakashi saying that Haku is younger and stronger than him as another example then?
Stronger doesn't need to be in Ap. Someone with a simple technique could defeat them all and be called stronger because he can defeat them.
Stronger doesn't need to be in Ap. Someone with a simple technique could defeat them all and be called stronger because he can defeat them.
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"Strength" doesn't just have to refer to physical strength.
If one of the Chunin had an instant-death ability that killed whoever they looked at, then it might be fair to describe them as the "strongest Chunin in existence." But that doesn't mean their stats are higher than everybody elses.
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- #54
You do realize that I’m literally upgrading Haku to that level, right? You aren’t helping your case.
Defeating someone =/= stronger, you literally said that yourself. Are you going back on your own point now?
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- #55
And as I said earlier, if Lee didn’t mean physicals, then why would he need to use the Fifth Gate, a technique that amps AP and speed, and the Reverse Lotus, a technique where you physically beat the crap out of your opponent, to even contend with Neji?
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I was sarcasting on that Haku and Kakashi comparation....
Lee needs that because he can't content in melee in a serious fight with Neji without having the speed and physical prowess advantage because of the Gentle Fist who strikes directly the organs and chakra nervous system ...tenketsu. For Lee that would be fatal as he is close range fighter. Its logic.
Lee needs that because he can't content in melee in a serious fight with Neji without having the speed and physical prowess advantage because of the Gentle Fist who strikes directly the organs and chakra nervous system ...tenketsu. For Lee that would be fatal as he is close range fighter. Its logic.
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- #57
Congratulations, your sarcasm just helps my point. Which should’ve been obvious if you looked at the OP.
Except Lee literally never says that he’d have the strength or speed advantage against Neji. All he said was that he was saving the Reverse Lotus for a fight with him. That implies that Fifth Gate Lee and Neji are comparable, or Neji is superior going by Lee’s earlier statement that Neji is the strongest genin in Konoha. There is literally nothing in the manga supporting Lee > Neji, to claim that Lee is stronger is ignoring what Lee himself says and is headcanon.
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Being the strongest genin doesn't need to be in AP, is hard to understand? Its canon that Gentle fist is what people fear about Neji and the Hyuuga Clan. It's their ability to ignore durablity and attack the inner organs.
It doesn't impilies that 5th Gate Lee is = Neji but that that technique is needed to fight him. Being able to fight someone doesn't need to be in the same tier in AP. One could be 7-C and another 7-B and winning because of a technique/power/etc.
Anyway, that's my stance Neji is the stongest genin at that point in story but not thanks to his AP but to his fightning style.
I will await more inputs from more users on this subject as just my opinnion or just yours won't change the much.
It doesn't impilies that 5th Gate Lee is = Neji but that that technique is needed to fight him. Being able to fight someone doesn't need to be in the same tier in AP. One could be 7-C and another 7-B and winning because of a technique/power/etc.
Anyway, that's my stance Neji is the stongest genin at that point in story but not thanks to his AP but to his fightning style.
I will await more inputs from more users on this subject as just my opinnion or just yours won't change the much.
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I agree with Zara and Damage. Neji being "stronger" is just because of his skill and broken dura neg
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- #61
Naruto one-punching Neji is a blatant outlier, Neji was casually dunking on Naruto and his clones throughout the fight. And again, Neji has 7-C scaling of his own, he is not just scaling to KN0 Naruto.
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- #62
Even if you don’t say he’s on par with Lee (even though that’s what Lee himself says), that doesn’t change Neji’s tier. At all. That would’ve just given Lee a 7-C/MHS+ stat with the Fifth Gate.
There’s still the fact that several jōnin had to restrain him from killing Hinata, and Hiashi says (in his personal inner monologue) that Neji surpasses the main branch of the Hyuuga Clan entirely. Neji’s still 7-C/MHS+.
There’s still the fact that several jōnin had to restrain him from killing Hinata, and Hiashi says (in his personal inner monologue) that Neji surpasses the main branch of the Hyuuga Clan entirely. Neji’s still 7-C/MHS+.
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Several jonin restraining Neji (seemingly casually) does not mean Neji is stronger than multiple Jonin. What was the context again for the surpassing statement? Wasn't it right after Neji unveiled one of his techniques which had created independently of the Main Branch?
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The Jounin crossed the distance and arrived to him faster than he could strike Hinata. The idea was obviously just that they all were in sync, not that they were afraid of not being able to restrain him.
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- #65
You have no reason to assume they’re casual though. And again, Hayate already had the right to intervene with the fights and the other jōnin knew that. If only one was necessary, then Hayate would’ve just done his job as proctor and jumped in on his own. Guy, Kakashi and Kurenai’s help would’ve been totally unnecessary in that case.
And yes, but as I already explained, Hiashi said that he surpassed the main branch entirely. That doesn’t mean just in skill, that doesn’t mean just in intelligence, it means in every single way.
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- #66
Uh, no. That is not implied anywhere in the manga. If only a single jōnin was needed to stop Neji, then the one who’s job it was to step in, would’ve just done that without help.
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That is what you think. There is absolutely no proof of that.
The very fact that they casually crossed tens of meters faster than he could the two meters between him and Hinata already goes against that. Likewise, Kakashi grabbed his hand without any problems, Kurenai was just... dabbing, Hayate just put his fingers on Neji's forehead, and Gai put his arm around his throat (he wasn't actually putting neji in a chokehold).
Hell, Neji even complains that the other jonins jumped in just because Hinata is important.
The very fact that they casually crossed tens of meters faster than he could the two meters between him and Hinata already goes against that. Likewise, Kakashi grabbed his hand without any problems, Kurenai was just... dabbing, Hayate just put his fingers on Neji's forehead, and Gai put his arm around his throat (he wasn't actually putting neji in a chokehold).
Hell, Neji even complains that the other jonins jumped in just because Hinata is important.
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- #69
You mean it’s what is literally shown?
Kurenai has Neji’s arm too, actually.
Again, jumping in is literally Hayate’s job as the proctor. If he was all that was necessary, why did the other jōnin feel the need to step in on his job. None of you have addressed that point.
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What is shown is the three jounin blitzing him, two of which are absolutely casual about it in looks, one being angered because Neji promised to not get too worked up over family stuff, and Kurenai doing whatever she is supposed to be doing.
In no way is it implied that he is stronger than Gai or Kakashi.
And what do you mean we didn't give a reason? Neji himself complains about the reason. Unless of course the a direct statement that isn't challange by anyone is worth less than an assumption that goes against the statement.
In no way is it implied that he is stronger than Gai or Kakashi.
And what do you mean we didn't give a reason? Neji himself complains about the reason. Unless of course the a direct statement that isn't challange by anyone is worth less than an assumption that goes against the statement.
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- #71
Kakashi always looks casual, first of all. Hayate doesn’t look casual at all.
If he wasn’t, they could’ve restrained him without help. Or, just let Hayate do his job.
Neji’s reason is bias towards the main Hyuuga house. Do you really think that the jōnin only jumped in because they have a bias towards the main Hyuuga house? Because that’s what Neji’s reason is. I will repeat, it was Hayate’s job to step in to the fight if necessary. So the other jōnin had no need to step in if Hayate on his own was strong enough to stop Neji.
If he wasn’t, they could’ve restrained him without help. Or, just let Hayate do his job.
Neji’s reason is bias towards the main Hyuuga house. Do you really think that the jōnin only jumped in because they have a bias towards the main Hyuuga house? Because that’s what Neji’s reason is. I will repeat, it was Hayate’s job to step in to the fight if necessary. So the other jōnin had no need to step in if Hayate on his own was strong enough to stop Neji.
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If all four of them were actually required to restrain him, Neji wouldn't question the other Jonin jumping in to stop him.
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I disagree with that. Kakashi when actually strained is something you can notice. Likewise, Hayate does not at all look strained at all.
Ah, so your personal interpretation should be taken over a direct statement then? Well, occam's razor, assuming Neji is right takes less assumptions than saying that Neji is wrong due to bias, and that his attack would be too hard to stop for Hayate, and that he somehow also scales above characters that, once again, moved over five times the distance he had to fast enough for him to not even be able to change his position before he was restrained.
Ah, so your personal interpretation should be taken over a direct statement then? Well, occam's razor, assuming Neji is right takes less assumptions than saying that Neji is wrong due to bias, and that his attack would be too hard to stop for Hayate, and that he somehow also scales above characters that, once again, moved over five times the distance he had to fast enough for him to not even be able to change his position before he was restrained.
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- #74
He didn’t really question it, he literally said that he thinks it’s because of the main house getting special treatment, which is obviously false.
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- #75
When you can’t really see his face up close, he looks casual and lazy.
Neji thinking the main house gets special treatment is personal interpretation? Ooooooookay... And saying Neji is right would imply that all four of those jōnin have a bias for the main house and against the branch house. But y’know what, yeah, sure, Kakashi and Guy care enough about the internal workings of the Hyuuga clan to gain a bias towards main house members like Hinata and against branch house members like Neji, sure.
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Why is it obviously false though.
Gai directly brings up the main branch ordeal as the first thing to Neji, and none of the four deny it, and they didn't react like that to Gaara nearly killing Lee despite him being a volatile jinchuuriki who has let Shukaku loose enough times to give the Kazekage renown for how many times he subdued the Ichibi.
Gai directly brings up the main branch ordeal as the first thing to Neji, and none of the four deny it, and they didn't react like that to Gaara nearly killing Lee despite him being a volatile jinchuuriki who has let Shukaku loose enough times to give the Kazekage renown for how many times he subdued the Ichibi.
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And again, they completely blitzed him.
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- #78
Neji struck Hinata’s tenketsu at speeds that Hiruzen, Kurenai and Kakashi didn’t notice until the end of the fight so...
I never argued Neji to have MHS+ movement speed, only combat speed. So you’re not making any point here. I said in the OP that his speed would be ‘Hypersonic+, Massively Hypersonic+ combat and reaction speed.’
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- #79
Guy took Lee, a kid that couldn’t use genjutsu or ninjustu, under his wing. Him being biased against a group of Hyuuga that just happened to be born later is completely out of character.
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What do you mean they didn't see it?
Saying "what a guy" and "no wonder he is considered a genius" does not mean he blitzed them. It means they are impressed with him. Kakashi was impressed with Sasuke as well, but that doesn't mean much for scaling at all.
And... Gai made Neji promise to not do exactly what he was doing. It's not out of character for him to stop Neji when his student broke their promise and attempts to kill someone. He'd be as likely to step in if Lee attempted to abuse the eight gates.
Saying "what a guy" and "no wonder he is considered a genius" does not mean he blitzed them. It means they are impressed with him. Kakashi was impressed with Sasuke as well, but that doesn't mean much for scaling at all.
And... Gai made Neji promise to not do exactly what he was doing. It's not out of character for him to stop Neji when his student broke their promise and attempts to kill someone. He'd be as likely to step in if Lee attempted to abuse the eight gates.
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