Official Perception Speed Separation

[Agnaa]

Currently our instruction pages are inconsistent on whether or not perception speed is a thing. Our Speed page doesn't include it under the 5 speeds it lists, but Reactions says that a perception timeframe, for characters who don't move, can be included on profiles, and it also includes a table detailing the tiers of perception speed.

Outside of instruction pages, a fair few people seem to draw that distinction. Within this thread, @KLOL506, @DontTalkDT, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan, and @Damage3245 seemed to draw a distinction between reaction speed (requiring movements) and perception speed (which has no associated movements).

So I think perception speed deserves official recognition. The Speed page should list perception speed as a separate category. The Reactions page should have its table moved (either to its own page, or the Speed page), and its heading should be changed from "Reaction Tiers for Reaction Timeframes Only" to something along the lines of "Perception Speed Levels". Plus, the Reactions page should have its second bullet point reworded to indicate that characters with only a timeframe would get an associated perception speed.

On actual profiles, this won't require any immediate changes, as all speed ratings besides combat speed are optional (at least, according to the Standard Format for Character Profiles). Some pages would need to turn any listed timeframes (as the Reactions page, under its second bullet point, currently recommends it be added to profiles in that way) into speed ratings demarcated as perception speed.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

You as well, @Damage3245 .

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, the perception times are a reaction thing but specifically not really a speed thing. So the separation we have makes sense in my head.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, the perception times are a reaction thing but specifically not really a speed thing. So the separation we have makes sense in my head.

But the suggested places for that are the speed section (which kinda goes against "it's not really a speed thing"), the "skills section" (I don't know what the Reactions page means by this), or the feats section (this is kind of tucked away, anything important is usually somewhere else on the profile as well). Also, the Reactions page lists speed ratings for these perception timeframes, which is a bit strange if we're not gonna give a speed rating for it.

It seems like the best place (and a currently allowed place) is the Speed section of a page, and we already have the speed ratings listed for it, so I don't think there's much of a separation right now. And since there isn't, we should make it a proper speed rating.

One could suggest to cull this info; not allow perception timeframes in the speed section, and to get that reaction timeframes table removed, but I think that's a worse idea.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I agree with this, considering many profiles already recognise such distinction. Although it will take time to edit "reactions" to "perception" on profile pages I suppose.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with this, considering many profiles already recognise such distinction. Although it will take time to edit "reactions" to "perception" on profile pages I suppose.

Yeah but that sorta thing would be necessary anyway; since we're not meant to give reactions when the character doesn't physically move.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

Makes sense to me

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well perception is the ability to see something happen while reaction is the ability to do something in response to something else

They are in fact different

 

[Mr._Undetected]

I guess that makes sense.


But what about putting it at Reaction speed instead?

I mean in the Reaction section it's like

Reaction Speed

is a speed etc. And this speed is divided by two (or whatever)

Perception Speed:...

Reaction Speed:...

So accepted, but just put it on Reaction Speed?

(Just a few ideas, and sorry for the comments in the Staff Thread)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

We still never determined whether or not if Reaction Speeds can be used for speed blitzing calcs BTW

 

[Agnaa]

@Mr. Undetected I don't understand your suggestion. It seems overly cumbersome to list reaction speed, then perception speed, then reaction speed. I'd think it better to just list reaction speed and perception speed once each.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree Perception is worth listing on the speed section of certain character profiles if there's a note worthy and/or consistent distinction between that and reaction speed and/or combat speed. I think the system of just using reaction time with no needed movement is fine.

As for what to do with the reactions speed page, I agree the ratings list should either be moved to the speed page or be moved to a new Perception page.

 

[Mr._Undetected]

@Mr. Undetected I don't understand your suggestion. It seems overly cumbersome to list reaction speed, then perception speed, then reaction speed. I'd think it better to just list reaction speed and perception speed once each.

Ouhh, if that really makes it complicated, Then it's better with your idea.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Generally speaking I'm against overcomplicating things. and adding this seems like it doesn't add much benefit. So I'm more in DT's camp at the moment, maybe a clarification could be given? I think that's all that'd be necessary.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with separating perception speed from reaction speed

 

[DontTalkDT]

But the suggested places for that are the speed section (which kinda goes against "it's not really a speed thing"), the "skills section" (I don't know what the Reactions page means by this), or the feats section (this is kind of tucked away, anything important is usually somewhere else on the profile as well). Also, the Reactions page lists speed ratings for these perception timeframes, which is a bit strange if we're not gonna give a speed rating for it.

It seems like the best place (and a currently allowed place) is the Speed section of a page, and we already have the speed ratings listed for it, so I don't think there's much of a separation right now. And since there isn't, we should make it a proper speed rating.

One could suggest to cull this info; not allow perception timeframes in the speed section, and to get that reaction timeframes table removed, but I think that's a worse idea.

Well, I would much rather have it on a separate page than putting another table unto the speed page.
And the reactions place seems appropriate as far as separate pages are concerned.

I guess we could also move it to an entirely separate page... Although at that point what is left of the reactions page? Basically, the entire page deals with perception time and reactions vs perception time.

 

[FinePoint]

Objectively, perceiving something and reacting to it in the context are very different.
I think it would clear up confusion on what someone is actually capable of in battle.

If there's already a page for reactions, then it seems reasonable to include this distinction there, but not including it on the speed page seems like a good way for people to completely overlook it.

I share Bamb's concern that the benefits seem minor, and so I think that merely clarifying there is a difference rather than creating an entirely new category could be enough to stop confusion in certain cases, but personally I'd rather make the distinction more official than that so it's more likely to be included on relevant profiles.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, I would much rather have it on a separate page than putting another table unto the speed page.
And the reactions place seems appropriate as far as separate pages are concerned.

I guess we could also move it to an entirely separate page... Although at that point what is left of the reactions page? Basically, the entire page deals with perception time and reactions vs perception time.

I can't quite tell what your position is. Are you just talking about the idea of moving the perception speed table to another page? Or are you talking about treating "perception speed" as a separate category at all?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with this separation, as perception is simply perceiving something while reaction is actually being able to perform a quick movement in response to what you perceived.

 

[KLOL506]

Actually, I don't see any keeping the Reactions Page anymore, since Reactions rely on a distance component now like any other ordinary speed calc (Only difference being that full-blown speed is for moving your entire body large distances, Reactions would be akin to combat speed but over a shorter period of time and usually involves less complex actions than actual full-blown combat maneuvers and occasionally also covering less distances).

I guess giving Perception its own page would be better while getting rid of the Reactions page and merging it with Speed instead.

 

[Antvasima]

As usual, I strongly trust DontTalk's sense of judgement. Let's see if he figures out some good solution here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I can't quite tell what your position is. Are you just talking about the idea of moving the perception speed table to another page? Or are you talking about treating "perception speed" as a separate category at all?

I mean, "perception" as stat for reaction times already exists and is separate from regular reactions. So it's not that I'm against maintaining the existing separation.

I just think that putting the reaction times (i.e. perception) table unto the speed page isn't a good idea, as the speed page is already quite full and the perception times are no speed in the common sense of the word.
One could move the information from the reactions page into a separate page, but those information are basically the entirety of the reaction page.

So I guess what I'm saying: Link to the perception time table and explanations on the speed page, but just leave those information on the Reactions page. That makes the most sense to me.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, "perception" as stat for reaction times already exists and is separate from regular reactions.

The thread is mainly meant to address that it isn't truly separate; we don't have a name/description for it on the Speed page, for instance.

So I guess what I'm saying: Link to the perception time table and explanations on the speed page, but just leave those information on the Reactions page. That makes the most sense to me.

While not ideal, that seems workable to me. I'd also like to toss out another suggestion for consideration; renaming "Reactions" to "Reactions/Perceptions", and leaving a redirect behind.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like you have reached a conclusion here then. Is somebody here willing to apply the agreed change?

 

[Agnaa]

I would still like DT to consider my last suggestion over his.

 

[Antvasima]

I would still like DT to consider my last suggestion over his.

Okay. No problem.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, "perception" as stat for reaction times already exists and is separate from regular reactions.

The thread is mainly meant to address that it isn't truly separate; we don't have a name/description for it on the Speed page, for instance.

So I guess what I'm saying: Link to the perception time table and explanations on the speed page, but just leave those information on the Reactions page. That makes the most sense to me.

While not ideal, that seems workable to me. I'd also like to toss out another suggestion for consideration; renaming "Reactions" to "Reactions/Perceptions", and leaving a redirect behind.

Seems fine, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. That can probably be applied then.

 

[Agnaa]

So, I'd suggest something along these lines for a Perception Speed section on the Speed page.

The timeframe it takes for character to notice an event or reaction. But crucially, this does not grant any movement; at most, it allows the user to activate a thought-based ability.

More information, and a table of which timeframes grant which speeds, can be found on the [[Reactions/Perceptions]] page.

And as before, I'd suggest renaming the table on the Reactions page to "Perception Speed Levels".

 

[KLOL506]

So, I'd suggest something along these lines for a Perception Speed section on the Speed page.

And as before, I'd suggest renaming the table on the Reactions page to "Perception Speed Levels".

Sure, but what about renaming the Reaction Page into Perceptions Page and shifting all "Reactions" related stuff to the Speed page as per my reasonings?

 

[Agnaa]

I'd be fine with that, but DontTalk was against that, so I suggested something else.

 

[KLOL506]

I'd be fine with that, but DontTalk was against that, so I suggested something else.

Hmmmm, didn't notice that.

Wait, this is about reaction times, but... reactions... aren't timeframes anymore. They need a distance component now as per a recent CRT, which basically makes reaction feats the exact same as calculating speed feats via the projectile dodging formula.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmmmm, didn't notice that.

Wait, this is about reaction times, but... reactions... aren't timeframes anymore. They need a distance component now as per a recent CRT, which basically makes reaction feats the exact same as calculating speed feats via the projectile dodging formula.

Going from the page, they've always needed a distance component, but the timeframe table describing itself as "reactions" is a contradiction with that. I pointed out that issue back in April, and I made this thread now to try and resolve it.

 

[KLOL506]

Going from the page, they've always needed a distance component, but the timeframe table describing itself as "reactions" is a contradiction with that. I pointed out that issue back in April, and I made this thread now to try and resolve it.

Wait, wasn't that supposed to be done within that very thread itself?

 

[Agnaa]

It wasn't gaining any traction when I bumped it, and the thread was initially about something else (causing people to come in answering the OP, instead of the suggested change from midway through), so I figured I'd start a new one.

 

[KLOL506]

It wasn't gaining any traction when I bumped it, and the thread was initially about something else (causing people to come in answering the OP, instead of the suggested change from midway through), so I figured I'd start a new one.

I see.

So anyway, I assume the "Reactions" and "Rules Regarding Reaction Speed and Scaling" sections will remain on the page? Or should we shift them to the Speed page instead, given that they've always required a distance component to begin with?

 

[Antvasima]

So, I'd suggest something along these lines for a Perception Speed section on the Speed page.

And as before, I'd suggest renaming the table on the Reactions page to "Perception Speed Levels".

@DontTalkDT

Do you think that this seems fine to apply, and if so, are you willing to handle it please?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, I'd suggest something along these lines for a Perception Speed section on the Speed page.

And as before, I'd suggest renaming the table on the Reactions page to "Perception Speed Levels".

Wouldn't "Perception Time Levels" be more accurate? I'm fine with renaming it in any case.

Btw. despite the name I wouldn't define the perception time as only seeing the event, but as the time to make any kind of mental response to it. That's kinda the primary purpose of the rating IMO.

 

[KLOL506]

Wouldn't "Perception Time Levels" be more accurate? I'm fine with renaming it in any case.

Btw. despite the name I wouldn't define the perception time as only seeing the event, but as the time to make any kind of mental response to it. That's kinda the primary purpose of the rating IMO.

Ah, one more thing.

What will happen to the "Reactions" and "Rules regarding Reaction Speed and Scaling" sections? Will they get shifted to the Speed page?