Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Overlord_Darkness]

Outer Gods? You mean the beings that were explicitly stated in GO to not actually be metaphysical, conceptual or immortal? lol.

Chaos shoots lightspeed beams, which are not going to tag someone way faster than Aoko, who could fight the sentient will of the cosmos. Araya reaching him could be difficult because of the space alteration stuff, so idk on his KnK iteration.

But Araya at his peak can apply boundaries and Stillness on an abstract level and blink:

Spoiler

Araya's Origin is Stillness/Suspension. It makes him specialized in equilibrium/balance and boundaries/division:


This Origin is also beyond Death's reach, as it represents the ultimate equilibrium and cessation of motion. Because of this, Stillness is considered "already dead" and "stopped", which makes it logically unable to be killed:


Ryougi could only kill Araya's physical body. Since, unlike his essence, it still participated in reality and had a faint thread that allowed its interaction with space-time:


His Soul, however, has achieved true immortality. Even after Shiki killed his last spare body, both him and Touko noted that he will simply wait into Akasha until he is cycled back into the material world in the next generation:


This is important, because Death is one of the most fundamental principles in TM, to the point that Void Shiki equated it with Akasha:


It can kill "all things without exceptions" by looking at the floor-plan of reality, and is the power that aligns the most with Ryougi's nature, as her Origin wishes for the death of all creation:


Furthermore, during their final conversation, Touko described Araya's Origin as "Zero" (Having no clear end or beginning) and noted that his desire was "Nothingness", bringing about a perfect realm of Death:


This means that Araya is fundamentally empty at his core, and his desire mirrors Void's desire in bringing about the death of all creation. In fact, Paradox Spiral features a noticeable Yin-Yang symbolic representation of him and Ryougi:


Almost as if Araya acted as some form of counterpart to her.

So we know that Araya's Origin is beyond Death's scope, and is depicted as an emptiness intertwining with Ryougi's Nil, which is aligned with the One itself. From this, we can gather that Stillness corresponds to the finality of Death and the Nothingness where all things are in potential, with no clear starting point or end. This ties into the name of "Zero" mentioned by Touko, as it represents the ground for all things to arise, and is, as a number, found both at the beginning and at the end of a numerical sequence. In many philosophical and spiritual traditions, Zero is seen as a representation of potentiality and wholeness. It is the state of nothingness from which everything emerges and to which everything returns.

Moving on his abilities, Araya studied the nature of the soul and recorded Death, taking in the countless suffering into the world, to the point he became the physical manifestation of Hell itself:


He has also been outright compared to Yama:


Yama is the God of the underworld and the ruler of Hell:


This comparison makes sense once you consider Araya's role in recording Death and being able to read someone's Origin, deciding their worth. This parallels Yama's role in keeping watch over the cycle of Death and Rebirth and dealing out judgement and karmic retribution. This is further backed up by Kishima Kouma referencing Araya in MB Act Cadenza:


Notice how he described him as the embodiment of Hell like in KnK, meaning that he doesn't disagree with it. This is significant, as Kishima's own power is derived from Hell:


With his Last Arc being named after Yama himself at that:


If we go back to Red Demon God, Kiri Nanaya realized that he couldn't match up to Kishima, who innately possessed "Death" within him. Kiri, despite his talent and fascination with killing, could only ultimately pursue Death, without actually achieving it. The only thing that could match Kouma would be something born broken, like him, a "master of Death." :


This reference directly points to Shiki Nanaya/Tohno, whose innate ability to perceive death is exclusive to him, as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are an innate Origin power possessed through birth:


And Tohno was actually stated to have MEoDP as a natural ability, with his near death accident being merely the trigger for it:


Add the fact that the Nanaya personality only showed up after Tohno's pseudo death, him describing himself as the "guiding principle" of Tohno's body and as his "foundation", and Tohno being able to surpass the limits of his body when being guided by his mind and killing instincts, and it's clear that Tohno (And by extension Kouma) are Origin awakened beings.

Kiri also makes an interesting distinction: the Kishimas specialized in Destruction, whereas the Nanayas specialized in killing:


Kouma was a "master" of Destroying (innately wielding its power through his Origin), while Kiri only "pursued" killing. The one who could fight Kouma would be the one that was a "master" of killing, aka Shiki. This suggests that while Shiki's Origin is Death (hence his innate Death Perception), Kouma's Origin is Destruction, both being different types of "Death."

This explains the comparison with Araya: Kishima is simply an agent of Hell, bringing about its destructive potential and the breaking down of old forms allowing for new ones to take their place. Araya, on the other hand, is Hell itself/its ruler due to acting as a judge-like figure and embodying the static, endless suffering associated with Hell. Touko even went as far as saying that maybe it would be better to compare his apartment complex (Which is an extension of Araya's will) as Purgatory:


So Araya is also a "Master of Death" like Kishima and Tohno/Nanaya, but he is the most superior variation of such a title, being the very embodiment of suffering and judgement. He is a static constant that controls the very framework under which both Death and Destruction operates.

Moving on to his barriers, they are a representation of his internal world, constructed from his soul and imposing his will and nature upon the external world:


They are described as "worlds" contructed from his body/Origin. They are conceptual constructs that casts stasis, suppression, existential dread, reverse physical damage and distort perception to make Araya impossible to sense. They are, for all intents and purposes, actual "worlds" separating Araya Souren from the outside, untouched by conventional rules and only imposing Araya's own rules and will upon anything that enters their domain. They are even called after the six heavenly realms in Buddhism:


Meaning that they symbolize Araya's ability to control and impose judgement on all of creation and its souls, just on a very localized scale.

Now, how did Araya unlock this barriers? Well, he quite literally mastered them by accident, without even being aware of it:


This makes perfect sense if you look at other Origin awakened characters: The more they align with their true nature or gain knowledge about their Origin, the more powerful and versatile they become. By absorbing death and suffering as an immortal monster transferring his soul from body to body, and studying the origin and soul, Araya acted as a fundamental constant mirroring the static suffering of Hell and the role "cosmic" judge of Yama. This, overtime, resulted into Araya gaining an understanding of the cycle of transition and the fundamental truths governing existence. This understanding eventually manifested as his bounded fields, as the most basic pratical application of his Origin powers. It allowed Araya to exert his understanding of suffering and reality onto the external world.

This also means that the more Araya understand existence and its mechanics, and the more his power grows. This is precisely what he did in KnK when constructing his apartment complex. It acted as an extension of his will and a representation of his internal world:



This building not only took over Araya's role as an Hell that recorded Death and suffering in a closed loop, but it was also a temple of the Taiji, representing duality and balance. It also acted as a separate world untouched by natural physical laws:


The building even reached True Magic:


This, once again, proves the importance of Araya's Origin, as his inner landscapes qualifies for True Magic. We also know that it represents Taiji, further expanding into his role as a cosmic judge bringing balance into the world:


The building was structured by starting to replicate the 64 possible types of Death, which represents all the possible interplay of fundamental forces:


This eventually allowed Araya to trace from this 64 hexagrams to the 8 Trigrams (The fundamental building blocks for the 64 hexagrams), then the 4 phenomena of Yin-Yang theory, and finally Yin-Yang itself (The Ryougi), represented by the building's two halves containing activity/life and stillness/death. The complex on itself could have then gone even further and opened a path to the One. Araya only refrained due to the Counterforce's interference:


To sum it up, the complex has the same function of Araya's barriers to separate the inside from the outside, suspend conventional rules, enforcing Araya's own will and record and manage the cycle of life and death, but on a far larger scale. The building also encapsulated every possible interaction between the fundamental forces of Yin and Yang, acting as a microcosm of creation. This enhanced Araya's understanding of reality, on top of him gaining an understanding of how to manipulate spatial boundaries by merging his body with the structure of the building:


This greater understanding of the structure of the world, on top of the building being isolated from the outside (Meaning that the Counterforce and Gaia could not override his attempts at altering their domain) allowed Araya to experiment and finally delve into abstract reality warping. This resulted into him creating an infinite dimension, and set up abstract laws to define its working:


Before anyone points it out, no. The dimension being described as a "closed loop" and "enclosed" does not disproves its infinity. The space itself is boundless and limitless, but is governed by abstract rules that function to isolate its contents from the outside world. The infinite nature of the space means there are no physical boundaries, while the functional rules, such as the Möbius Ring structure and the concept of spatial isolation, create an environment where escape is impossible.

However, Araya still lacked significant insight into abstract manipulation and still had a long way to go, as seen when he underestimated Ryougi's MEoDP:


However, when Ryougi killed him, Araya had no more spare bodies to anchor his soul to the material world. This means that he will go into Akasha with his self awareness and mind intact due to his immortality. KnK actually mentions that Araya had never actually experienced death prior to that:


This is important, as remember that even Tohno and Ryougi could only actually unlock their MEoDP by experiencing death with their mind through their near-death experiences. Ryougi was capable of reading abstract concepts like time during her experience, and she eventually became able to grasp Death with her brain:


Likewise, Araya, by reading abstract concepts with his mind and being in direct contact with Zero, will almost definitely be able to gain full mastery of Stillness, applying it to an abstract level.

For context, Type Moon clearly derives its metaphysical system from Neoplatonism but with some modifications from Taiji, with the Root being often called the One with the same terminology. When taking into account everything we have seen so far, Stillness can be easily equated to the Dyad, which is the principle of differentiation and multiplicity. The One by itself cannot create something outside of its essence, as it is pure unity and undividedness, it must first generate the Dyad. The Dyad then create boundaries and distinctions, deciding which of the boundless possibilities of the One are actualized and which are not. It structures the logical framework under which the One's essence can be expressed, setting up the rules of all creation. This is why Araya is often compared to a judge-like figure and hell: The Dyad is the ultimate cosmic judge, deciding what can and cannot exist, all souls upon death are either returned to potentiality or cycled back into reality according to its judgement. This is also why Araya is described as symbolizing the paradoxical spiral:


Stillness is the balance and the empty boundary between contradicting dualities such as life and death, destruction and creation, etc. Ensuring that the cosmic order remains intact. This further ties into the number Zero being the transitional state between positives and negatives values, while Stillness is the transition between potential and actualization. This also explains the Yin-Yang parallel between Ryougi and Araya: The One (Ryougi-Yang) is the active source of existence and the underlying unity behind all things, while Stillness (Araya-Yin) is the passive backdrops under which the One operates and that regulates its infinite potential, allowing for its expression under a logical system, rather than being everything and nothing at once.

This is why Kara no Kyoukai (Boundary of Emptiness) is stated to be his story, because he is literally the Empty Boundary dividing the inside from the outside:


So TLDR: Araya started by being able to read Origins, and his constant quest to study reality and absorbing suffering allowed for the subconscious mastery of his bounded fields. To make an easy comparison, this is like when Tohno Shiki just got his MEoDP and became able to read the Lines of living beings and enact their Death, but still struggled with non-living objects. This barriers are the starting point of Stillness' power, making the user a world of its own that can impose boundaries and structure the rules of existence.

The more Araya gains knowledge of reality's inner workings and "complete himself" the more versatile and significant the worlds he can construct from his body becomes. After making his complex, Araya brought the same concept of his bounded fields to a much larger scale, encompassing the physical world and gaining a glimpse of the abstract world. He became able to manipulate space to an extreme extent and create a new, infinite reality and set up its abstract laws. This was a basic manifestation of the Dyad's principles of structuring something boundless, just on a smaller scale.

And while, at this point in time, Araya had just gotten a hold of merely the basics of "coding" realities, Ryougi killing him actually sped up his learning massively. This is because he can now directly perceive how the Dyad, Nothingness and the abstract concepts works with his mind. This will complete his knowledge and understanding, allowing him to use Stillness at its full potential to create or dissolve distinctions between all things, change potentiality into actuality or vice versa, and just generally express the One's possibilities into any type of logical framework he wishes.

Now, remember when Araya's complex was stated to have reached True Magic? Well, KnK in its guidebook actually hints at the First Magic with this entry:


So the First is hinted to be capable of creating "Nothingness", as in, creating shapeless and raw potential that can be later guided and shaped into anything. This mirrors the Dyad allowing for the actualization of potentials and manipulating or creating this primordial state from which all forms arise.

Ether as described here is similar to Zero or Stillness in that it is a fundamentally empty substance that serves as the ground for all creation. Just as Ether is formless and can be shaped into any of the Four Elements, Zero represents the undifferentiated potential that can be shaped into all possible forms or distinctions. Mahoyo further backs this up:


"...At the beginning, the First changed all." clearly refers to the Dyad, at the beginning of creation, changing "all" (The One's wholeness and infinite potentiality) into something definable, which are then recognized by the Second as all different possible parallel worlds etc.

So yeah, Araya's Stillness is the First Magic. And when he will grasp it at its fullest in the next generation, he will easily be the second strongest TM character by far. Before you mention it, Yumina and all of that shit has only showed up in Grand Order and recent times, no proof it applied to the older canon. And even if it did, it just means it was a subordinate lower aspect of Stillness. The broader point about its capabilities does not change.

And in case the Fate Clown Squad decides to butt in (God forbid), no. This does not apply to KnK Araya like you have dishonestly tried to make out to avoid addressing the argument. Araya in his prime powers hasn't appeared in KnK. It was Ryougi killing him that allowed him to reach either full mastery or very close to it. We know that Araya will never die, so he will achieve it eventually regardless.

Outer Gods were stated to be completely beyond human comprehension (this is about your words about conceptuality e.t.c.) and beyond principles of magecraft, which includes magic, beyond laws of the universe (which Araya abides by default) and beyond logic. Imo Valthuum solos. I think that even All-in-One and One-in-All will not be necessary to destroy Araya.

EDIT: top-tier Outer Gods (like Yog-Sothoth) can end whole universe/existence at some point, so let's talk about lesser of them for now

 

[KingNanaya]

Fake

er

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

er

Faker > Gil.........

 

[Huesito88]

Faker > Gil.........

So Gil > Counterfeit > Faker > Gil

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

So Gil > Counterfeit > Faker > Gil

Gil > Faker > Gil > Faker > Gil e.t.c.

 

[Violatas]

Why the hell does this verse have so much more discourse compared to others

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes, I did. Feel free to cite that.

i’ll check again, but i am 95% sure a statement like this exists.

regardless, araya needed the original pattern of the soul. void would not be any use, as she is the body.

So? Oh wait, are you saying that this somehow implies Shiki is as weak as a normal girl?

i’m focusing less on that, and more on the fact that she’s seriously harmed by an attack hyped to smash concrete. statement could just mean she’s relatively fragile,which is why im focusing on the second half.

But don't you see something that does not add up already under this interpretation? It supposedly claims that Shiki is as durable as a normal girl, yet it describes the attack she took as capable of shattering concrete walls and large trees, something that no normal human could actually survive. Humans can be fatally injured by attacks that wouldn't scratch concrete walls. A bullet can pierce a human but not a tree, and a shotgun blast can split a human while merely damaging a tree. Even within the Type-Moon universe, Kirei Kotomine needed three strikes to break a tree, despite using a technique that utilised his full body weight even while being bound to said tree. So even isolated, this passage doesn't logically follow if we take it as attributing Shiki the durability of a young girl, even though she survived something 3x stronger than the force that even Kirei can output.

see above.

Furthermore, this also find itself in stark contrast with the rest of the novel, which remarks in no uncertain terms that Shiki's body is superhuman when it comes to resilience and recovery. Here is an example from the same Chapter 5 already:


Not only is her body explicitly stated to be more resilient than most, but she also healed broken ribs and ruptured organs in just over a week, which shows that not only she is superhumanly resilient, but that even her healing capabilities are far from human level. This is supported once again later in Chapter 7:


Despite suffering extensive and potentially fatal injuries ("legs, wrist, and body all torn"), Shiki has the ability to extend her life significantly and fully recover with treatment. This once again demonstrates an advanced healing capability far beyond normal human limits. On top of advanced bodily control techniques to manage and mitigate her injuries, like extending the time between her breaths and cuts off the nerves near her wounds, showing a level of bodily awareness and control beyond normal human capability.

But if you want examples of outright durability, Chapter 3 has that covered:


As you can see, the text does not indicate that Shiki sustains any injury from the fall. Surviving such a fall unscathed strongly suggests that she possesses superhuman durability or agility. Any bridge should be high enough for a human to splatter instantly, or at least cripple them. It also mentions the sound of a window breaking, indicating that Shiki not only survived the fall but also had enough control and force to break through a window upon landing. This requires considerable strength and precision, further indicating superhuman physical capabilities.

argument from silence.

The corpse leaps at Shiki straight away and the two get tangled up in the lightless hospital room.

The corpse's body is that of an adult human, two heads bigger than Shiki. No matter how she struggles Shiki is pushed back. With both arms trapped Shiki slowly pulls back. It's a small hospital room so she soon reaches the wall. Whack, the moment she touched the wall Shiki made up her mind.

She voluntarily fled so that there would be a window behind her.

She calculated how she would fall back.

The problem --- how many floors up it is.

"--- Don't hesitate."

Scolding herself she removes the arms that were holding the corpse back.

The corpse stretches its hands towards her neck, but faster than that --- she opened the window with her freed hands and the two fell out as if they were getting tangled up.



◇

The instant I begin to fall.

I grab the corpse's head and reverse who is above and who is below.

(spin - SoundFX), after the arrangement changed so that the corpse was on the ground side and I was on top riding it, I jumped by sense alone.

The ground already seems to be right in front of my nose.

The corpse's body gets hurled against the ground, and I was jumping horizontal to the ground before my body could roll over.

(Ururu - SoundFX), scattering the dirt of the hospital lawn I land with both arms and legs.

The corpse fell on the hospital flower beds --- and it happened that I slipped and fell on the lawn which is a fair distance from there.

I had just executed a miraculous fall, the likes of which I hadn't done once in the dojo --- but the weight of that great height of three floors was paralyzing my body.


It's only natural. When the mage who appeared in the garden looked up at the night sky, what he saw was Shiki Ryougi jumping down from the tenth floor.

At the very moment when the mage attempted to spatially transfer from the mansion to the garden, this opponent leaped off the corridor on the tenth floor without hesitation.

What kind of conviction did she have to do such a thing? It's simply incomprehensible.

Even if one had predicted that the mage would indeed appear in the garden, who would think of jumping off the tenth floor?

That's beyond reckless—it's the kind of thing that would be called a miracle.

Jumping from the tenth floor, aiming at a single human being? How is that different from dropping a needle from the tenth floor and hitting a target?

Yet, without any hesitation, this opponent jumped down.

Even though the mage's presence still remained on the tenth floor, Shiki Ryougi leaped towards Araya Souren, who had not yet materialized in the garden.

Thus, the instant the mage appeared in the garden, his body was severed.

In an attempt to shield himself, he thrust his left arm, meant to crush the mansion, but his arm, along with his body from shoulder to waist, was bisected. Apparently, not even the protection of the relics embedded in his left arm could withstand the impact of a slash imbued with the force of a fall from ten floors up.

Shiki’s body remains suspended without touching the ground.

Ironically, one of the mage's barriers that still held the power of suspension was activated.

Caught by this barrier, Shiki didn't experience the full impact of the fall. Nevertheless, the pressure from falling over forty meters must have worsened her injuries.

Shiki’s head remained lowered.

The sword she held in her hand was embedded deep in the mage’s body, refusing to come out.

With a face still full of anguish, Araya's grimaced eyebrows reflected his loathing and resentment.

Asagami’s astonishment and the description of Shiki’s action as "unbelievable" and showcasing remarkable athletic ability further implies that this feat is extraordinary. Asagami’s reaction emphasises that this is not something a normal person could achieve. Shiki then proceeds to survive the collapse of the bridge easily, despite having a broken arm and suffering from severe blood loss:


And despite all of that and being close to passing out due to exhaustion, she is still capable of instantly knocking out a guard with a single hit:

This is a feat an IRL trained human can do

So if the novel agrees with Shiki's superhuman physicality, what's the deal with the passage comparing her body to that of a young girl? It's quite simple actually:



Not only it is contrasting her body's fragility with her Mystic Eyes here, but it literally talks about her also having "exceptional physical abilities" (Or reflexes, motor control skills, depending on how it's translated), which makes it even more obvious that this quote is less about physique/durability/resilience, and more about vulnerability, structural integrity and overall biology.

This quote is simply constrasting Shiki's supernatural abilities (Her Mystic Eyes, her combat skills, physical stats etc.) with her human's nature. While Shiki's body has superhuman capabilities and abilities, it still remains fundamentally human biologically speaking, which means it can be injured in the same way as that of a young girl, requires the same vital organs to function, and is just as susceptible to extreme physical force damaging her. This inherent vulnerability is why Araya hitting her in a critical spot crippled her. The "hype" about Araya being able to punch through "even a large tree" or "take down a concrete wall" is a metaphor to convey the extent of the damage that Araya can cause to a human body. It's essentially saying that even if Shiki's body was made of something as solid and sturdy as concrete or was as though as a tree, Araya would have effortlessly demolished her all the same. So her actual human body, which has vulnerabilities against physical impact and trauma that concrete and wood do not present, such as flesh that can be torn, bones that can break and organs that can be damaged, had no way to withstand his attacks. It's mostly a literary device to highlight the extreme difference in strength between her and Araya, rather than saying "Yeah Shiki is normal human level and Araya is wall level" as those interpretations are contradicted repeatedly in the very same novel multiple times.

This is just one of the many NPC downplay arguments for KnK at this point. Ryougi is physically continental, she scales above characters with such feats and directly fought them. Archetype can play pinball with the continents, yet she lost to Ryougi. This statement is primarily meant as a literary device to highlight the significant difference in strength between her and Souren. Unless of course, you can explain why supposedly "normal girls" can survive tree snapping punches, or how does Shiki consistently displays superhuman endurance, durability and even healing, but suddenly in this one scene she infinitely drops down?

whatever her normal feats are, they are consistently in this same ballpark see above, and an additional point here.


By the time the mage grasped that this was Shiki, who had charged straight at him after throwing the knife, the outcome of the fight had already been decided.
Driving into his body shoulder first, Shiki's single blow had the same force as a cannon shell. Just that alone would have broken a few bones, but Shiki is clenching a silver knife in her hands.
The knife is perfectly penetrating the centre of the mage's chest.
"Ug --- gh."
The mage coughs out blood. His blood was a sand-like powder.
When Shiki removed the knife she straight away thrusts it towards the mage's neck. With all the strength in her two hands. The fight has already been decided, but she is desperately trying to deliver another critical blow.

Bruh.

AI:

The translation of the Japanese text is:

"Two years ago, I failed. They were too opposite. What was needed were those who shared the same 'Origin' but had diverged paths. Yes, rejoice, Ryougi Shiki. Those two were prepared as sacrifices solely for you."

The text is indicating that the individuals mentioned share the same "Origin" but have diverged or taken different paths in life. This doesn't necessarily mean their Origins are identical in every aspect; rather, it suggests that they originate from the same fundamental concept or source but have developed or expressed that Origin in different ways.

And this should be blatantly obvious, since the story was going for Ryougi being the abstract Nothingness from which everything is sourced from, Kirie being the mental nothingness seeking Death, and Asagami being the physical nothingness where her physical sense and interactions are disrupted. And you talked about "defeating the point of KnK".

Seems like you blatantly left out the "diverged" part and only posted the "Same Origin" sentence. Classic weeb tactic.

Also, I sent you this quote as well:



Anything else?

send the full thing, at least. Araya doesn’t talk about their origins.

... Fujoh Kirie who had been confined to a bed with a disease that meant she could die at any moment. A woman who had only been able to feel that she was alive through death. A human who had only been able to feel that they were alive through death. ... An ability possessor with one mind and two bodies.

And.

Ryougi Shiki, who could only realise the fact she was alive by approaching death and defying it. ... An ability possessor with two minds and one body.

"Then there was Asagami Fujino who could only find joy by coming into contact with death, again someone similar yet different to you."

... Asagami Fujino, she who had no sense of pain and so could not accept feelings from the outside world. A girl who could only find pleasure in the extreme act of killing a person. A human who could only feel that they were alive by observing the pain her victims went through as she killed them, and the sense of superiority that brought. ... The scion of an old bloodline that sealed off the abilities they were born with through physical means.

And.

Ryougi Shiki who could only feel herself and others by coming into contact with death and trying to kill each other. ... The scion of an old bloodline that artificially developed their abilities.

"When death came near she chose death, and you chose life."

Throwing your lives before yourselves she enjoyed killing, and you enjoyed trying to kill each other.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Oh. FGO material explains BB's relation with Nyarlathotep. So she's NOT fused with him, but he observes over her. Interesting

And, according to Space Eresh, Outer Gods are restricted to access the Universe (lol. It was stated so many times...) However, she claims that they can manifest directly and there will be freakin carnage. Wow!

 

[SeijiSetto]

why tf does everyone and their mom have unknown LS
give them like "Athletic Human" in lack of better feats
alternatively, find better feats

 

[Wankbreaker]

ok,so the statement is NOT in the novel, but it is in the anime.

Here’s the novel version:

"Counterforce? Oh, that meddler won't act. This time, I'm not creating a new path myself, but merely following an already opened one. There won't be any backlash. Still, I'll proceed with caution. I'll handle the sample named Ryougi with care."

──Ryougi?

"What have you done with Shiki, you bastard!?"

the movie version just adds slight context.

 

[Wankbreaker]

regardless, if ryougi could kill things by thinking, why did Touko say she would have struggled more in a physical restraint? why didn’t she just think to kill Arayas attacks, or araya himself?

the answer is because she can’t. the novel even says she wasn’t restrained in the first place, she was just put in a coma

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We are shown in the infinite space barrier in the manga. Shiki basically swipes her hand.


Touko mentions that it would have been better to use a concrete cell, as Shiki has more difficulty killing matter, which is why she uses a weapon. But even a physical cell wouldn't be able to keep her trapped for long.

Though per materials, the difficulty is in having the right mentality:

Line of Death other The constantly shifting, graffiti-like lines visible to Ryougi Shiki. The lines appeared on everything, and by slashing the lines with a knife, the object bearing the lines could be “killed.” Since the lines posed no resistance, everything could be killed with the same ease. The Lines of Death are not the lines at which “an object can be easily cut apart,” rather, they are the concept of longevity given form. Strictly speaking, it is not “tracing the lines causing the object to fall apart,” but “ending the lifespan and killing the object.” To put it into simpler terms, it is the erasure of existence rather than physical destruction. Ryougi Shiki is a living being, and she seemed to have an easier time seeing the end of a living being. This is because as a living being, it is easier to comprehend “the death of a living being.” In order to see the Lines of Death of minerals or Concepts, she either has to become minerals, or use her brain and tap into her “imagination.” In summary, the end (lines) of an existence that humans cannot comprehend is not visible.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

What do you think we'll get first: The conclusion of Tier 0 Root thread or GTA VI?

 

[Youngstargrade]

What do you think we'll get first: The conclusion of Tier 0 Root thread or GTA VI?

Lostbelt 6 anime adaptation

 

[HyperZero95]

i’ll check again, but i am 95% sure a statement like this exists.

No, it doesn't. Araya wanted the body and its powers. I literally sent you a quote where Araya stated he doesn't need Ryougi's MEoDP and would destroy them. And another one where he says he is fine with crushing Ryougi's head and replace it with his own.

ok,so the statement is NOT in the novel, but it is in the anime.

.....Which makes it irrelevant by default.

Here’s the novel version:

The path Araya is referring to is Ryougi's body/Origin. I already sent you a quote where he explicitly stated that his plan has always been to draw Void out. And there is more:

Ryougi Shiki's body will be crushed but he didn't care about how she would appear. It was sufficient for her body to remain intact enough to support human vital activity. Her head wasn't necessary in the first place. Her cranium may be crushed and her brain fluids splashed out, but that part will only be replaced by own head. What was important was her body. Only her body connected to the root. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Very explicit.

For your other statement......You are just proving you know very little of KnK. The pattern of the soul IS Void/The Origin and the personality of the body, as the soul is contained within the body:

I do, after a fashion. A personality of the flesh as such arises in every human, but ordinarily it does not come to any kind of self-awareness. Usually, before that can happen, the intellect stirs to life. From out of the body, more precisely the brain, the intellect is produced.—The intellect borne out of the brain's activity becomes a personality and gains executive function over the fleshly body. At that point any personality which dwelt in the flesh becomes meaningless.—It's because of this that the intellect tends to treat the brain which gave birth to it as if it were something specially set apart from the rest of the fleshly body, even though it is just one part of the whole.—Software is useless without hardware, but hardware can't function without software. The personality borne of the intellect forgets this truth: it forgets that it is the body's product, and it imagines that it is the creator of this fleshly, embodied "I" which it finds itself to be. That is the ordinary case. I am different only in that the order in which these things happened was different for me.—Even so, the fact that I'm here, now, talking to you is entirely due to the personality of Shiki. If she wasn't here, I wouldn't even have language. I am, after all, nothing but flesh.—I think I get it, he said. Your ability to "know" or "perceive" the outside world is dependent on Shiki's personality.—Correct. I am simply an unpowered piece of hardware. Without the requisite software I am just an inert box.—I am a hollow container which only gazes inward, which communes solely with death - in other words with what Magi call the "Root", though I see no value in it whatsoever. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

i’m focusing less on that, and more on the fact that she’s seriously harmed by an attack hyped to smash concrete. statement could just mean she’s relatively fragile,which is why im focusing on the second half.

That's cherrypicking though. The entire statement is framed in relation to her biological vulnerabilities as human. If you want to take the second half literally, you have to do the same with the first half, which makes the statement incoherent as no normal girl can actually survive attacks that strong. All that it is saying is that Ryougi, despite her great power, still has a human body that operates the same as a girl and needs the same vital organs to function. So it wasn't equipped to withstand the sheer physical force of Araya's punch which, in comparison, could smash a concrete wall and snap a large tree. That's in the context of Araya being so powerful that Shiki would have been wrecked even if she didn't have the typical human limitations against physical trauma like concrete or wood do. That's really all there is to it.

Araya was going to crush his entire apartment complex with a gesture, was directly stated to be far more powerful than Nrvnqsr Chaos and above the entirety of the modern era in close ranged combat, which would include people like the Burial Agency and Soujuurou Shizuki. And Ryougi herself fought characters with continental feats and scaling in Melty Blood. And it's highly unlikely she never physically clashed with them at least once. Origin Awakenings also grant physical stats tied to your willpower that tends to be in the same general area. If Ryougi in base can beat Nrvnqsr and Archetype Earth in terms of at least speed, then her physical strength would be around the same level. It makes no sense for her mind to amp her speed to those levels but her physical strength is randomly million of times below that.

argument from silence

What? Did you just google the term 5 minutes ago and tried to use it in an attempt to sound smart? All I am doing is interpreting things consistently in the right context.

The hospital showing doesn't really mean anything, as Shiki had just woken up from her coma and just gained her Origin awakening amps. In fact, her performing that fall by pure instinct made her realize that she had gotten better than ever after her coma. So she was just getting used to her new power if anything. She later survives a much longer fall in Chapter 3 with literally 0 damage, after all.

The Araya showing is just her jumping from the 10th floor and diving towards Araya with the added force of her fall. That's like saying that Frieza throwing a mountain at Goku with his own force means he is mountain level. Your own statement even says that the fall would have simply made her injuries worse. Not even actually kill her.

This is a feat an IRL trained human can do

I'm certainly itching to see examples of IRL humans taking no damage at all from jumping from a bridge into an underground parking, avoid a bridge collapsing with a broken arm and then still instantly knock out an adult male while being exhausted and having lost a lot of blood. All back to back.

send the full thing, at least. Araya doesn’t talk about their origins.

Uh, dude. That was YOUR argument...So you are admitting you were making stuff up?

regardless, if ryougi could kill things by thinking, why did Touko say she would have struggled more in a physical restraint?

Because Touko never said that and was just mocking Araya lol:

Ah, you have no mistakes. For you, a mage, this is the ultimate solution. But what if the premise itself is wrong? What if Shiki was not isolated in some room within this mansion, but isolated within the mansion itself? A barrier that has reached the realm of magic, known as spatial isolation. It's a divine feat that only you, an expert in barriers, could accomplish. Those confined within the closed loop, the Möbius Ring of isolation, cannot escape from within. Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that. Certainly, it is perfect. However, such things won't work against 'it.' Just as magic is omnipotent in civilized society, 'it' conflicts with beings like us who live by concepts. We pose a threat to common sense, but─── Shiki is the grim reaper to the unconventional, as you should have experienced."

Ryougi Shiki, who could see death, was an extraordinary existence. But merely killing people was a common ability. Modern weapons created by civilization were far more lethal.

The reason Ryougi Shiki was unique among even the mages wasn't because of her ability to kill living things—it was because she could kill things that shouldn't be killable, even intangible concepts.

"That which leads to death"—that was her power.

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

So, then─────?

"Right, if you wanted to confine her, you should have just buried her in concrete. Given that she only has the strength of a young woman, all you'd need to do is create an iron-walled sealed room.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!"

She turned to face the mage.

Before he could even comprehend her expression, his consciousness snapped back to his original body. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Touko is not making a definitive assessment of Shiki's physical strength here lol. She is simply making fun of Araya not grasping the full depth of Shiki's abilities. She is basically telling him that if Shiki was an ordinary girl, a cell made out of concrete or iron walls would have been sufficient to trap her through physical means. But since Araya is a magus, he viewed magic as absolute. Thus he trapped her into a spatially sealed, infinite world, which is impossible to affect or escape from through purely physical means, hence being the most absolute and perfect method for trapping "an ordinary girl".

However, as Touko herself states "What if the premise itself is wrong?" Because the truth is that Shiki is far from an "ordinary girl". Her Mystic Eyes don't hold the power to physically kill mundane objects like most weapons in the modern era. Rather, her MEoDP can target formless, intangible and purely abstract concepts. Magic may seem absolute in modern society, but Shiki is the reaper of the unconventional, of the very same concepts that Mages uses to weave their craft.

Touko is highlighting the absurdity of judging Shiki from her outward appearence: While she looks like an ordinary girl, her abilities are extraordinary. So Araya's perspective was flawed in perceiving her as something that could be physically contained, as made further evident in this later passage:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05.

MEoDP is capable of killing the very abstract "code" that created space and allows it to exist. From Shiki's perspective, an infinite world or a concrete wall are literally no different from each other, as they are both things that relies on the fabric of reality that she can observe and destroy with MEoDP. Therefore, Araya realised that the very idea of trying to "capture" her in any capacity was absurd from the start, as everything that one could possibly conjure would end up being nothing more than the same confined cell against her Mystic Eyes. As the novel stated, only The One/Akasha is immune to MEoDP due to being a non-contingent perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else to exist, resulting in it having no flaws for DP to read.

Furthermore, notice what the novel says here:

She awoke in that sealed space, within the confines of the building, and with her strength, she sliced through the impossible barrier. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Shiki shredded the "impossible" barrier (The abstract limits that are not physically located in space per se, but just "are" akin to the law of gravity for example) with her "strength". This makes it very clear that when Touko said "strength", she didn't mean her physical strength strictly, but rather her overall powerset, which is objectively far from normal.

why didn’t she just think to kill Arayas attacks, or araya himself?

Because she just reached that level and we know imagining the death of things a MEoDP user is not used to is more difficult and straining. But if Ryougi took the time to focus and think Araya out of existence, he would have speedblitzed her just like in their first fight. So it was a safer bet to employ her mental capacity to upkeep Self Hypnosis to have the speed for fighting him. She would later become more used to her non-local MEoDP and not strain as hard as before in imagining the abstract, we know this because Void confirmed she can kill all things with no exception by the Epilogue, and later in Actress Again, she could instill Death on an ultimate one and kill her despite her reality warping abilities, which would require Shiki to erase them with her thoughts as, again, abstract concepts are not things located in space that we go around punching, but can only be thought about.

 

[HyperZero95]

We are shown in the infinite space barrier in the manga. Shiki basically swipes her hand.

The manga is still an adaptation that is not exactly 1:1 to the novel. The source material takes precedence and clearly stated that Shiki found and "cut" the non-existent limit of Araya's dimension. Followed by Touko noting she can kill intangible and formless abstract concepts. The thing is that abstract concepts are found nowhere in space. They are the source of space and govern how it works in the first place. They can only be interacted with mentally. Good examples are Ryougi herself "floating" inside Akasha and "Reading" abstract concepts like time with her mind, even though her actual physical body was in her hospital bed the whole time. Or Aoko just standing there in front of Touko while her mind acessed Akasha and the Fifth in Mahoyo.

The space itself was boundless, so it doesn't even make sense that Shiki could see a limit physically located in space to cut and trace. This is why the novel referred to the limit she "cut" as "non-existent": She didn't cut the space but the abstract boundaries defining its working and upholding its existence. We later have her defeating Archetype Earth in Melty Blood, which would require her to have this same thought based variation of MEoDP to counter her reality warping.

If you ask why she didn't use that MEoDP variant to erase Araya in their second fight, she just reached that level and we know imagining the death of things a MEoDP user is not used to is more difficult and straining. But if Ryougi took the time to focus and think Araya out of existence, he would have speedblitzed her just like in their first fight. So it was a safer bet to employ her mental capacity to upkeep Self Hypnosis to have the speed for fighting him. She would later become more used to her non-local MEoDP and not strain as hard as before in imagining the abstract, we know this because Void confirmed she can kill all things with no exception by the Epilogue, and later in Actress Again, she could instill Death on an ultimate one and kill her despite her reality warping abilities, which would require Shiki to erase them with her thoughts as, again, abstract concepts are not things located in space that we go around punching, but can only be thought about.

The only other alternative (if you want to consider the manga that is) is that Ryougi is capable of creating a Line acting as physical representation of an abstract concept right in front of her that she can trace easily. That would still translate to her being capable of killing things without requiring physical contact, and would only be slightly slower than erasing those things with her mind. But that's, again, only if we choose the take the manga as the only possible depiction, which we don't have to. As It is still an adaptation that has a few details ultimately contrasting with the novel.

Touko mentions that it would have been better to use a concrete cell, as Shiki has more difficulty killing matter, which is why she uses a weapon. But even a physical cell wouldn't be able to keep her trapped for long.

Touko doesn't actually say that, nor is that statement meant to be taken seriously.

Ah, you have no mistakes. For you, a mage, this is the ultimate solution. But what if the premise itself is wrong? What if Shiki was not isolated in some room within this mansion, but isolated within the mansion itself? A barrier that has reached the realm of magic, known as spatial isolation. It's a divine feat that only you, an expert in barriers, could accomplish. Those confined within the closed loop, the Möbius Ring of isolation, cannot escape from within. Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that. Certainly, it is perfect. However, such things won't work against 'it.' Just as magic is omnipotent in civilized society, 'it' conflicts with beings like us who live by concepts. We pose a threat to common sense, but─── Shiki is the grim reaper to the unconventional, as you should have experienced."

Ryougi Shiki, who could see death, was an extraordinary existence. But merely killing people was a common ability. Modern weapons created by civilization were far more lethal.

The reason Ryougi Shiki was unique among even the mages wasn't because of her ability to kill living things—it was because she could kill things that shouldn't be killable, even intangible concepts.

"That which leads to death"—that was her power.

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

So, then─────?

"Right, if you wanted to confine her, you should have just buried her in concrete. Given that she only has the strength of a young woman, all you'd need to do is create an iron-walled sealed room.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!"

She turned to face the mage.

Before he could even comprehend her expression, his consciousness snapped back to his original body. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Notice how she actually confirms she can kill even abstract concepts. Touko here is merely mocking Araya for not grasping the full depth of Shiki's abilities. She is basically telling him that if Shiki was an ordinary girl, a cell made out of concrete or iron walls would have been sufficient to trap her through physical means. But since Araya is a magus, he viewed magic as absolute. Thus he trapped her into a spatially sealed, infinite world, which is impossible to affect or escape from through purely physical means, hence being the most absolute and perfect method for trapping "an ordinary girl".

However, as Touko herself states "What if the premise itself is wrong?" Because the truth is that Shiki is far from an "ordinary girl". Her Mystic Eyes don't hold the power to physically kill mundane objects like most weapons in the modern era. Rather, her MEoDP can target formless, intangible and purely abstract concepts. Magic may seem absolute in modern society, but Shiki is the reaper of the unconventional, of the very same concepts that Mages uses to weave their craft.

Touko is highlighting the absurdity of judging Shiki from her outward appearence: While she looks like an ordinary girl, her abilities are extraordinary. So Araya's perspective was flawed in perceiving her as something that could be physically contained, as made further evident in this later passage:

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself" - Kara no Kyoukai: Chapter 05.

MEoDP is capable of killing the very abstract "code" that created space and allows it to exist. From Shiki's perspective, an infinite world or a concrete wall are literally no different from each other, as they are both things that relies on the fabric of reality that she can observe and destroy with MEoDP. Therefore, Araya realised that the very idea of trying to "capture" her in any capacity was absurd from the start, as everything that one could possibly conjure would end up being nothing more than the same confined cell against her Mystic Eyes. As the novel stated, only The One/Akasha is immune to MEoDP due to being a non-contingent perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else to exist, resulting in it having no flaws for DP to read.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

The manga is still an adaptation that is not exactly 1:1 to the novel. The source material takes precedence and clearly stated that Shiki found and "cut" the non-existent limit of Araya's dimension. Followed by Touko noting she can kill intangible and formless abstract concepts. The thing is that abstract concepts are found nowhere in space. They are the source of space and govern how it works in the first place. They can only be interacted with mentally. Good examples are Ryougi herself "floating" inside Akasha and "Reading" abstract concepts like time with her mind, even though her actual physical body was in her hospital bed the whole time. Or Aoko just standing there in front of Touko while her mind acessed Akasha and the Fifth in Mahoyo.

The space itself was boundless, so it doesn't even make sense that Shiki could see a limit physically located in space to cut and trace. This is why the novel referred to the limit she "cut" as "non-existent": She didn't cut the space but the abstract boundaries defining its working and upholding its existence. We later have her defeating Archetype Earth in Melty Blood, which would require her to have this same thought based variation of MEoDP to counter her reality warping.

If you ask why she didn't use that MEoDP variant to erase Araya in their second fight, she just reached that level and we know imagining the death of things a MEoDP user is not used to is more difficult and straining. But if Ryougi took the time to focus and think Araya out of existence, he would have speedblitzed her just like in their first fight. So it was a safer bet to employ her mental capacity to upkeep Self Hypnosis to have the speed for fighting him. She would later become more used to her non-local MEoDP and not strain as hard as before in imagining the abstract, we know this because Void confirmed she can kill all things with no exception by the Epilogue, and later in Actress Again, she could instill Death on an ultimate one and kill her despite her reality warping abilities, which would require Shiki to erase them with her thoughts as, again, abstract concepts are not things located in space that we go around punching, but can only be thought about.



Touko doesn't actually say that, nor is that statement meant to be taken seriously.



Notice how she actually confirms she can kill even abstract concepts. Touko here is merely mocking Araya for not grasping the full depth of Shiki's abilities. She is basically telling him that if Shiki was an ordinary girl, a cell made out of concrete or iron walls would have been sufficient to trap her through physical means. But since Araya is a magus, he viewed magic as absolute. Thus he trapped her into a spatially sealed, infinite world, which is impossible to affect or escape from through purely physical means, hence being the most absolute and perfect method for trapping "an ordinary girl".

However, as Touko herself states "What if the premise itself is wrong?" Because the truth is that Shiki is far from an "ordinary girl". Her Mystic Eyes don't hold the power to physically kill mundane objects like most weapons in the modern era. Rather, her MEoDP can target formless, intangible and purely abstract concepts. Magic may seem absolute in modern society, but Shiki is the reaper of the unconventional, of the very same concepts that Mages uses to weave their craft.

Touko is highlighting the absurdity of judging Shiki from her outward appearence: While she looks like an ordinary girl, her abilities are extraordinary. So Araya's perspective was flawed in perceiving her as something that could be physically contained, as made further evident in this later passage:


MEoDP is capable of killing the very abstract "code" that created space and allows it to exist. From Shiki's perspective, an infinite world or a concrete wall are literally no different from each other, as they are both things that relies on the fabric of reality that she can observe and destroy with MEoDP. Therefore, Araya realised that the very idea of trying to "capture" her in any capacity was absurd from the start, as everything that one could possibly conjure would end up being nothing more than the same confined cell against her Mystic Eyes. As the novel stated, only The One/Akasha is immune to MEoDP due to being a non-contingent perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else to exist, resulting in it having no flaws for DP to read.

Outer Gods > Araya. Change my mind

 

[HyperZero95]

Outer Gods > Araya. Change my mind

Not interested in GO and stuff tbh. I'm just shutting that other dude's wank and clearing up misconceptions.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Not interested in GO and stuff tbh. I'm just shutting that other dude's wank and clearing up misconceptions.

Fair enough. Anyway my arguments:

Outer Gods were stated to be completely beyond human comprehension (this is about your words about conceptuality e.t.c.) and beyond principles of magecraft, which includes magic, beyond laws of the universe (which Araya abides by default) and beyond logic. Imo Valthuum solos. I think that even All-in-One and One-in-All will not be necessary to destroy Araya.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

why tf does everyone and their mom have unknown LS
give them like "Athletic Human" in lack of better feats
alternatively, find better feats

there's a ton of LS feats in the UBW and HF anime that I need to put into a blog, had a Class 5 one for Rin and some high Class M/Class G calcs for the Servants

 

[SeijiSetto]

there's a ton of LS feats in the UBW and HF anime that I need to put into a blog, had a Class 5 one for Rin and some high Class M/Class G calcs for the Servants

if there's any that haven't already been calculated just gimme a heads up

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

if there's any that haven't already been calculated just gimme a heads up

I was planning to do all of them after finishing my FSN reread and then rewatching the anime but being in a rut along with 200 kb/s internet on a good day with a 6GB update is making that hard

 

[KingNanaya]

Why the hell does this verse have so much more discourse compared to others

I really don't know

 

[SeijiSetto]

I was planning to do all of them after finishing my FSN reread and then rewatching the anime but being in a rut along with 200 kb/s internet on a good day with a 6GB update is making that hard

i've literally just finished the UBW anime so i don't mind going back through it at high speeds to see if i missed anything

 

[Wankbreaker]

We are shown in the infinite space barrier in the manga. Shiki basically swipes her hand.


Touko mentions that it would have been better to use a concrete cell, as Shiki has more difficulty killing matter, which is why she uses a weapon. But even a physical cell wouldn't be able to keep her trapped for long.

thanks. so she obviously didn’t dispel it with a thought,lol.
do you have the link to all of the KNK manga chapters in JP?

also, the “wouldn't be able to keep her trapped for long.” is absent in the raws, to my knowledge.

Though per materials, the difficulty is in having the right mentality:

Line of Death other The constantly shifting, graffiti-like lines visible to Ryougi Shiki. The lines appeared on everything, and by slashing the lines with a knife, the object bearing the lines could be “killed.” Since the lines posed no resistance, everything could be killed with the same ease. The Lines of Death are not the lines at which “an object can be easily cut apart,” rather, they are the concept of longevity given form. Strictly speaking, it is not “tracing the lines causing the object to fall apart,” but “ending the lifespan and killing the object.” To put it into simpler terms, it is the erasure of existence rather than physical destruction. Ryougi Shiki is a living being, and she seemed to have an easier time seeing the end of a living being. This is because as a living being, it is easier to comprehend “the death of a living being.” In order to see the Lines of Death of minerals or Concepts, she either has to become minerals, or use her brain and tap into her “imagination.” In summary, the end (lines) of an existence that humans cannot comprehend is not visible.

 

[HyperZero95]

thanks. so she obviously didn’t dispel it with a thought,lol.
do you have the link to all of the KNK manga chapters in JP?

also, the “wouldn't be able to keep her trapped for long.” is absent in the raws, to my knowledge.

Nice to know you avoided my replies to both you and the other guy.

Also, can't help but notice you shifted to using adaptations instead of the source material. Almost as if you know you stand no chance by arguing with me on the story without bringing up contradicting versions.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Nice to know you avoided my replies to both you and the other guy.

didn’t avoid them, just haven’t typed up a response yet

Also, can't help but notice you shifted to using adaptations instead of the source material. Almost as if you know you stand no chance by arguing with me on the story without bringing up contradicting versions.

just….. like you’ve been doing with the melty manga and MB Archives?

regardless, going against your agenda doesn’t equal contradictory.
touko notes that if the objective really was her body, it could just be cut up and opened, instead of going through the trouble of brain transplantation

 

[HyperZero95]

didn’t avoid them, just haven’t typed up a response yet

Right, my bad, you are recording yourself surviving an incredibly high fall, break your arm, avoid the collapse of a bridge and then knock out a passerby to prove that all of that can be done by a trained IRL human. Forgot about that.

Dude, you can't even properly assess IRL humans capabilities, why are you debating fictional universes with intricate metaphysical frameworks?

just….. like you’ve been doing with the melty manga and MB Archives?

The Melty Blood manga is less of an adaptation and more of its own unique route that properly combines information from the game and provides additional information. The MB archives are guidebooks that supplement the source material, not an adaptation. You are just mad they confirmed Ryougi at her weakest is above Archetype, rather than relative like the game alone depicts.

I also never used those sources to contradict what happens in the games, but to back up my points that coincided with the story. While you are using non-canon adaptations that are not consistent with the source material to go against the core story itself.

touko notes that if the objective really was her body, it could just be cut up and opened, instead of going through the trouble of brain transplantation

I don't remember that, and it would be indeed incredibly stupid for Touko to say that. But you already lied on these statements not too long ago, so meh. Anyways, Araya wanting to transfer his brain is obviously because he would need it to control the body and use its powers for himself. Why in the actual hell would he open up her body and that's it? To reach out for her guts? What purpose does that serve? How does that contribute to his plan? You seriously need to reflect on things before typing.

 

[LehenDuo]

And this should be blatantly obvious, since the story was going for Ryougi being the abstract Nothingness from which everything is sourced from, Kirie being the mental nothingness seeking Death, and Asagami being the physical nothingness where her physical sense and interactions are disrupted. And you talked about "defeating the point of KnK".

This is literally wrong. It's objectively a "missed by translation" error.

Ryougi is 空
Kirie and Fujino are 虚無

Your phrase only makes sense because you are using a translations that falsely equates Ryougi, Kirie and Fujino's Origins.

 

[LehenDuo]

The space itself was boundless, so it doesn't even make sense that Shiki could see a limit physically located in space to cut and trace.

Not really... By the use of Mobius Strip as a chapte name, you can easily infer that the space she was in was something of the sorts, mathematically. The surface of spheres are also boundless / unbounded in that sense, but you can argue they definitely have a limits. Even infinity, even if boundless, is limit by cardinality...

And the "could see" is irrelevant - I believe it's even literally written in the novel, but if there WAS/EXISTED a limit, she would be able to cut it by Mystic Eyes. And said limit is FORCED to exist, because the space she was in wasn't " ".

 

[HyperZero95]

This is literally wrong. It's objectively a "missed by translation" error.

Ryougi is 空
Kirie and Fujino are 虚無

Your phrase only makes sense because you are using a translations that falsely equates Ryougi, Kirie and Fujino's Origins.

Except it clearly says "Origin" in quotation marks, with the point being that they have a similar fundamental concept, but are actually completely different from each other. Hence I said that their "nothingness" are different from Ryougi's, which refers to the abstract nothingness associated with Akasha. I even sent a novel quote of Touko saying they held completely different concepts from Ryougi.

In fact, you do know it was Wankbreaker that was equating Ryougi's Origin with Kirie, Asagami, and even Avenger, all to push his dishonest agenda? Right? Why are you whining at me, who has very explicitly said this whole time that those three don't have the same Origin?

Next time, try actually reading what someone said dude. It's not a good look.

 

[HyperZero95]

And the "could see" is irrelevant - I believe it's even literally written in the novel, but if there WAS/EXISTED a limit, she would be able to cut it by Mystic Eyes. And said limit is FORCED to exist, because the space she was in wasn't " ".

Again, please, actually read what someone is saying. I already explained that this statement is referring to the abstract boundaries defining the dimension.

Cardinality can't be used to measure the size of physical space. Wtf? That's a categorical error.

 

[LehenDuo]

Again, please, actually read what someone is someone is saying. I already explained that this statement is referring to the abstract boundaries defining the dimension.

Cardinality can't be used to measure the size of physical space. Wtf? That's a categotical error.

You are the one not understand the point - the space was ACTUALLY UNBOUNDED - the surface of a sphere is an example of a unbounded space. But being unbounded doesn't mean being limitless. That's the point of the WHOLE explanation.

I'm not using cardinality as a measure, wtf... I'm saying Infinity not only requires LIMITS TO EXIST but is ITSELF limited by Cardinality as an example, using the words used in the chapter, of why boundary and limit and diferent things.

The logic the novel proposes is "Infinity may be boundless, but as it's not "one", it has to have limits because it's not singular."
If you don't like that or disagree, that's another issue.

The limits may be physically non-existent, but they NECESSARILY have to exist for the space to be what it is defined as.

Actually read the post and think instead of pretending this is a college discussion competition and using strawmans and etc.

 

[HyperZero95]

You are the one not understand the point - the space was ACTUALLY UNBOUNDED - the surface of a sphere is an example of a unbounded space. But being unbounded doesn't mean being limitless. That's the point of the WHOLE explanation.

I'm not using cardinality as a measure, wtf... I'm saying Infinity not only requires LIMITS TO EXIST but is ITSELF limited by Cardinality as an example, using the words used in the chapter, of why boundary and limit and diferent things.

Dude what? The space is blatantly infinite. But it relies on finite things to exist. The number 1 must exist for the number 2 to exist, the number 2 must exist for the number 3 to exist etc. Until infinity. And those finite numbers are sourced from the abstract laws Araya set up. These laws are the "flaws" of the dimension that traces back to Akasha and what allows MEoDP to kill it. Only Akasha is flawless, as it relies on nothing for its existence. MEoDP is all about the immutable fact that all things have threads connecting to the One and permitting their existence.

That's literally it. Why the hell would Touko and Araya go on and on about Ryougi being able to kill abstract concepts otherwise?

 

[HyperZero95]

The limits may be physically non-existent, but they NECESSARILY have to exist for the space to be what it is defined as.

That's what I have been saying this whole time. You good bro? You misunderstood two of my arguments at this point. Yes, infinity has limits. Those limits, however, are abstract. Meaning they don't physically exist in space and can only be interacted with mentally. Meaning Ryougi must have thought them out of existence.

Actually read the post and think instead of pretending this is a college discussion competition and using strawmans and etc.

I notice you guys have this tactic of screaming that I am being arrogant or "competing", just because I am responding in kind to you either completely missing my point on a fundamental level, or arrogantly claiming I don't know about the series. Debate in a proper manner, and it'll all be fine.

 

[LehenDuo]

Dude what? The space is blatantly infinite. But it relies on finite things to exist. The number 1 must exist for the number 2 to exist, the number 2 must exist for the number 3 exist etc. Until infinity.

This ultimately is never talked in verse, and doesn't really matters.
What matters is that for 1 to be 1, 1 has to be defined as something and has to be different from 2. That is the limit that exist, ultimately, the limit that allows 1 =/= 2 to be true.
And that is why they say that only " " is boundless and singular/one - because infinity is boundless, but not singular, and depends on the "plurality" to be defined as infinity.

And those finite numbers are sourced from the abstract laws Araya set up. This laws are the "flaws" of the dimension that traces back to Akasha and what allows MEoDP to kill it. Only Akasha is flawless, as it relies on nothing for its existence. MEoDP is all about the immutable fact that all things have threads connecting to the One and permitting their existence.

Literally headcannon on the inner workings of the spell.

That's literally it. Why the hell would Touko and Araya go on and on about Ryougi being able to kill abstract concepts

Because even if Magi can use said concepts, the veyr idea of "killing" it is not only absurd, but nonsensical for beings that cannot perceive that said abstract concepts aren't limitless.

 

[Wankbreaker]

No, it doesn't. Araya wanted the body and its powers. I literally sent you a quote where Araya stated he doesn't need Ryougi's MEoDP and would destroy them. And another one where he says he is fine with crushing Ryougi's head and replace it with his own.


.....Which makes it irrelevant by default.



The path Araya is referring to is Ryougi's body/Origin. I already sent you a quote where he explicitly stated that his plan has always been to draw Void out. And there is more:



Very explicit.

For your other statement......You are just proving you know very little of KnK. The pattern of the soul IS Void/The Origin and the personality of the body, as the soul is contained within the body:

huh? a persons existence is etched onto their soul, as f/sn says.

Void even dispels this herself:

—But there's no helping it, I'm afraid. I am a body and nothing more, after all.

—There was a magus once who said: the soul resides in the brain. The fleshly body is just a prosthetic; really you could keep a brain alive in a vat, wired up to some dream or simulation, and it'd make no difference. Here you endorse the same view. That the personality, in sum, is inside the head.

—But that is not the case.

hell, extra goes into even more detail:

Soul [Circumstances]
A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.
In the world of EXTRA it is said to be the source that enables a container to have life.
In the past, in the medical community, it was thought that the body = life, and the body was an output device needed to power the soul. Without a living body, a soul could not be generated.
However, in the magus community the opposite was thought to be true. The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.
Which school of thought is correct still remains unknown today, however in the world of EXTRA Pseudo-Spiritron Theory has been established. From this theory it became clear that the soul can activate even without a physical body, and as such the soul has come to be treated as “the source of a person.”

That's cherrypicking though. The entire statement is framed in relation to her biological vulnerabilities as human. If you want to take it the second half literally, you have to do the same with the first half, which makes the statement incoherent as no normal girl can actually survive attacks that strong. All that it is saying is that Ryougi, despite her great power, still has a human body that operates the same as a girl and needs the same vital organs to function. So it wasn't equipped to withstand the sheer physical force of Araya's punch which, in comparison, could smash a concrete wall and snap a large tree. That's in the context of Araya being so powerful that Shiki would have been wrecked even if she didn't have the typical human limitations against physical trauma like concrete or wood do. That's really all there is to it.

There’s a difference between “this blow is powerful enough to shatter concrete”, and “this blow is powerful enough to cause harm to Shiki, whose durability could be likened to concrete.”
the former is stated outright. the latter is a reach.

supplementary material enforces how physically fragile she is, saying she’s surprisingly weak without her sword or knife, and that she struggled so much against araya’s implanted arm, when a flame could have been set to it and burned it away.

Araya was going to crush his entire apartment complex with a gesture, was directly stated to be far more powerful than Nrvnqsr Chaos and above the entirety of the modern era in close ranged combat, which would include people like the Burial Agency and Soujuurou Shizuki. And Ryougi herself fought characters with continental feats and scaling in Melty Blood. And it's highly unlikely she never physically clashed with them at least once. Origin Awakenings also grant physical stats tied to your willpower that tends to be in the same general area. If Ryougi in base can beat Nrvnqsr and Archetype Earth in terms of at least speed, then her physical strength would be around the same level. It makes no sense for her mind to amp her speed to those levels but her physical strength is randomly million of times below that.

being easier to kill, does not equal being weaker.
touko notes how buffed he is in his complex, and he would be equal to alba otherwise…. who is compared to kayneth of all people.
Plus, nero starts with his fodder beasts anyways, and slowly ramps up. Sojuurou is stated verbatim to be the strongest TM protagonist.

What? Did you just google the term 5 minutes ago and tried to use it in an attempt to sound smart? All I am doing is interpreting things consistently in the right context.

that is by definition what you are doing

The hospital showing doesn't really mean anything, as Shiki had just woken up from her coma and just gained her Origin awakening amps. In fact, her performing that fall by pure instinct made her realize that she had gotten better than ever after her coma. So she was just getting used to her new power if anything. She later survives a much longer fall in Chapter 3 with literally 0 damage, after all.

the text not describing her damage doesn’t equal being damaged.

also ignoring chapter 5 where she does take damage in a superior state,even while arayas barrier absorbing the impact force for her.

a real life person has survived a fall from 10000 meters up, so it is not impossible.

Vesna Vulović - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Araya showing is just her jumping from the 10th floor and diving towards Araya with the added force of her fall. That's like saying that Frieza throwing a mountain at Goku with his own force means he is mountain level. Your own statement even says that the fall would have simply made her injuries worse. Not even actually kill her.

not only does the text raise the 10 floor fall as significant, that’s not even relevant to her falling, as it would just be her body weight.

also, it says arayas barrier absorbed the shock of impact.

I'm certainly itching to see examples of IRL humans taking no damage at all from jumping from a bridge into an underground parking, avoid a bridge collapsing with a broken arm and then still instantly knock out an adult male while being exhausted and having lost a lot of blood. All back to back.

that is a straw man, I specifically replied under the sentence where you touted knocking someone out in one shot as being outside human capability.

Uh, dude. That was YOUR argument...So you are admitting you were making stuff up?

no? I’m talking about you saying they wield opposing concepts = they don’t have the same origin, when araya is just talking about their specific circumstances. this is all BEFORE he says they have the same origin anyway.

Because Touko never said that and was just mocking Araya lol:



Touko is not making a definitive assessment of Shiki's physical strength here lol. She is simply making fun of Araya not grasping the full depth of Shiki's abilities. She is basically telling him that if Shiki was an ordinary girl, a cell made out of concrete or iron walls would have been sufficient to trap her through physical means. But since Araya is a magus, he viewed magic as absolute. Thus he trapped her into a spatially sealed, infinite world, which is impossible to affect or escape from through purely physical means, hence being the most absolute and perfect method for trapping "an ordinary girl".

However, as Touko herself states "What if the premise itself is wrong?" Because the truth is that Shiki is far from an "ordinary girl". Her Mystic Eyes don't hold the power to physically kill mundane objects like most weapons in the modern era. Rather, her MEoDP can target formless, intangible and purely abstract concepts. Magic may seem absolute in modern society, but Shiki is the reaper of the unconventional, of the very same concepts that Mages uses to weave their craft.

Touko is highlighting the absurdity of judging Shiki from her outward appearence: While she looks like an ordinary girl, her abilities are extraordinary. So Araya's perspective was flawed in perceiving her as something that could be physically contained, as made further evident in this later passage:


MEoDP is capable of killing the very abstract "code" that created space and allows it to exist. From Shiki's perspective, an infinite world or a concrete wall are literally no different from each other, as they are both things that relies on the fabric of reality that she can observe and destroy with MEoDP. Therefore, Araya realised that the very idea of trying to "capture" her in any capacity was absurd from the start, as everything that one could possibly conjure would end up being nothing more than the same confined cell against her Mystic Eyes. As the novel stated, only The One/Akasha is immune to MEoDP due to being a non-contingent perfect existence that doesn't rely on anything else to exist, resulting in it having no flaws for DP to read.

Furthermore, notice what the novel says here:



Shiki shredded the "impossible" barrier (The abstract limits that are not physically located in space per se, but just "are" akin to the law of gravity for example) with her "strength". This makes it very clear that when Touko said "strength", she didn't mean her physical strength strictly, but rather her overall powerset, which is objectively far from normal.




Because she just reached that level and we know imagining the death of things a MEoDP user is not used to is more difficult and straining. But if Ryougi took the time to focus and think Araya out of existence, he would have speedblitzed her just like in their first fight. So it was a safer bet to employ her mental capacity to upkeep Self Hypnosis to have the speed for fighting him. She would later become more used to her non-local MEoDP and not strain as hard as before in imagining the abstract, we know this because Void confirmed she can kill all things with no exception by the Epilogue, and later in Actress Again, she could instill Death on an ultimate one and kill her despite her reality warping abilities, which would require Shiki to erase them with her thoughts as, again, abstract concepts are not things located in space that we go around punching, but can only be thought about.

A Mobius strip is a real like construct that can be physically made.

This is literally wrong. It's objectively a "missed by translation" error.

Ryougi is 空
Kirie and Fujino are 虚無

Your phrase only makes sense because you are using a translations that falsely equates Ryougi, Kirie and Fujino's Origins.

no, Void uses “虚無” in the epilogue. don’t make the mistake of citing the TM wiki like Tdjwo did

 

[LehenDuo]

That's what I have been saying this whole time. You good bro? You misunderstood two of my arguments at this point. Those limits, however, are abstract. Meaning they don't physically exist in space and can only be interacted mentally. Meaning Ryougi must have thought them out of existence.

Bro... WHAT? Let's just compeltely ignore the entire lore on channels, noble colors and etc and create a headcanon "she did it mentally"...

And again - the limits are not necessarily abstract. AGAIN, for the third time - SURFACE OF SPHERE. It is BOUNDLESS, but has REAL LIMITS as far as the space it encompass/occupies, etc. Considering the fact Mobius Strips are cited in the KNK work (and Klein Bottles, as Kelin Coffins/Boxes), it's natural to assume this. The space itself was embedded inside the Reality Marble of Araya in some way, for example, which is FINITE.

no, Void uses “虚無” in the epilogue. don’t make the mistake of citing the TM wiki like Tdjwo did

Does she? o-o'
Well, I gotta admit I never personally checked that, so I stand corrected.

Edit: ……たしかに虚無というものが起源であるのなら、彼女は全てのものを無に｜帰《き》したいと思うのだろう 。 and 虚無であるが故に、あらゆるものの死を望む方向性――。
Yeah, she actually does. Translations and sources always ******* up for JP things...

 

[Wankbreaker]

Right, my bad, you are recording yourself surviving an incredibly high fall, break your arm, avoid the collapse of a bridge and then knock out a passerby to prove that all of that can be done by a trained IRL human. Forgot about that.

Dude, you can't even properly assess IRL humans capabilities, why are you debating fictional universes with intricate metaphysical frameworks?





The Melty Blood manga is less of an adaptation and more of its own unique route that properly combines information from the game and provides additional information. The MB archives are guidebooks that supplement the source material, not an adaptation. You are just mad they confirmed Ryougi at her weakest is above Archetype, rather than relative like the game alone depicts.

so… an adaptation.

i’ve already proved how calling Arcueid a god is a categorical error that the franchise takes note of several times.

I also never used those sources to contradict what happens in the games, but to back up my points that coincided with the story. While you are using non-canon adaptations that are not consistent with the source material to go against the core story itself.

“non-canon adaptations”

sure, the manga and anime made with assistance from typemoon themselves are non-canon.

lol

I don't remember that, and it would be indeed incredibly stupid for Touko to say that. But you already lied on these statements not too long ago, so meh. Anyways, Araya wanting to transfer his brain is obviously because he would need it to control the body and use its powers for himself. Why in the actual hell would he open up her body and that's it? To reach out for her guts? What purpose does that serve? How does that contribute to his plan? You seriously need to reflect on things before typing.

when did I lie? you asked where it says the MEODP can be used for that purpose,and I obliged. even the 4th popularity poll calls them “the eyes that lead to [ ] “

also… are you sure you read KNK?

**Only that the bastard's objective is to reach the Maelstrom of Origins. In that case he would open up Shiki's body, but thankfully that rat doesn’t have the guts for something like that. **He will probably think it over until time runs out. He was always like that. It was fine for him to be happy about capturing a Redcap alive, but he didn't know how to dissect it properly so it eventually rotted. Well, even the person himself said as much, but Shiki's body will probably be fine for another 7 days, of course this is in the case that she was captured safely."
Touko-san says something very disturbing.
"--- Shiki's fine. That guy, he said he was keeping her. That phrase includes the meaning that she's alive."
Me who is rebutting her words, without realising it I was glaring at Touko-san.
Because, while my mouth was saying this --- I had imagined Shiki getting murdered.
"--- And so, if we don't rescue her quickly."

 

[LehenDuo]

sure, the manga and anime made with assistance from typemoon themselves are non-canon.

That's the joke, even Typemoon canon isn't canon. /s but not really
jokes are the only canon