Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Wankbreaker]

@Synnian

could you send the original jp text of the ryougi type lumina thing here again?

also type lumina’s english release is known by the community to have bad translations all around

The guy simply makes absurd strawmans to avoid facing the actual arguments. Like him claiming I said that Shirou's Origin is "hero", just to make me look wrong, when I told him countless of times that Nameless it not the same person as FSN Archer, sending him both an official quote saying that, and a screenshot from the game itself saying that Archer's Origin is the remnant ideals of nameless heroes, which would likely include the Sword Origin of FSN Shirou.
Or him genuinely thinking that "The fate awaiting Ryougi was the murder of a god" is any different from "The destiny in store for her was being a god killer". All because their objective is keeping Arcueid as number 1. It's so bad that Neco/Marshadow literally and unironically said that Earth > the Root on CV..........

Hell, just look at this:

They used this to argue that Avalon can block MEoDP, which is contradicted by all lore and feats in the verse. They would use various parody meme non-canon instances to deny what is blatantly shown in the lore.

They are entirely dishonest and should just be ignored.

the fate extra materials are clear in saying that the only difference in their existence is their true name (Nameless erased his true name)

EMIYA has a true name recorded on the throne, so that discounts him.

but if you wanted to go this route, wouldn’t this mean that he would have access to every nameless heroes origin, which would be a near infinite/infinite amount?

also, it is not contradicted by the lore, as this is the only interaction that these two abilities have.

even then, what we know of avalon is that it is an absolute defense.
"All-Distant Utopia, [Noble Phantasm] Avalon.

Avalon. The land of eternal spring in the Arthurian legends, and the name of a fairyland.

Avalon is an ideal land associated with the island in Greek mythology where the 'immortal apples' are said to exist.

Not only does it heal the owner's wounds and halt aging, but if the true name is released, it decomposes into hundreds of parts and protects the owner from all interference.

• "所有者" (shoyuusha) - owner
• "を" (wo) - object marker
• "あらゆる" (arayuru) - all
• "干渉" (kanshou) - interference
• "から" (kara) - from
• "守りきる" (mamorikiru) - to fully protect

The scabbard of the holy sword was excavated from Cornwall by the Einzberns and given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst for summoning King Arthur.

It is a Noble Phantasm within the realm of magic that shuts out all physical interference, transtioning from parallel worlds, and communication from multidimensional spaces (up to the sixth dimension).

If Saber were to seclude herself with this, it would be beyond anyone’s control."手におえない" (te ni oenai)"

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Saber.”

 

[Wankbreaker]

also, the mystic eyes of death are heavily implied to be able to be undone by rizo’s curse of time, which is purely time reversal.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Normal users can't tag people, so you should just respond to their post or ask on their profile.

ah, thanks

 

[TheSilverKing14]

also, the mystic eyes of death are heavily implied to be able to be undone by rizo’s curse of time, which is purely time reversal.

We have no idea what his time curse and it CAN easily surpass the second magic.

 

[HyperZero95]

Time reversal can work all the way to the abstract level, so this doesn't mean much. The regeneration of ALL Dead Apostles is indeed basic time reversal already, and it cannot stop MEoDP by any means, even prior to reaching its peak. On top of there being no actual evidence that Vaal's curse is time-reversal to being with. It could be countless of high tier forms of time manipulation.

I already obliterated your arguments and had my fill of entertainment with you clowns, I just addressed this one point since it was finally something new. Granted, completely deranged, but still new.

I'll only reply to other users and clarify their doubts stemmed from your lies now.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Time reversal can work all the way to the abstract level, so this doesn't mean much. The regeneration of ALL Dead Apostles is indeed basic time reversal already, and it cannot stop MEoDP by any means, even prior to reaching its peak. On top of there being no actual evidence that Vaal's curse is time-reversal to being with. It could be countless of high tier forms of time manipulation.

I already obliterated your arguments and had my fill of entertainment with you clowns, I just addressed this one point since it was finally something new. Granted, completely deranged, but still new.

I'll only reply to other users and clarify their doubts stemmed from your lies now.

soyou think his curse is above true magic? the highest forms of manipulation in their category? wow, amazing,altrouge must really be strong to keep someone like that under her control

 

[TheSilverKing14]

soyou think his curse is above true magic? the highest forms of manipulation in their category? wow, amazing,altrouge must really be strong to keep someone like that under her control

Straw man and we don’t even know how superordinate Vale is it’s likely he is a physical fighter with certain abstract abilities that counter full on abstract manipulators like Kishima Nanaya etc also true magic and magecrafts distinctions are illusory at best in Tsukihime worlds due to Unified Language being a thing and it is on the same rank/level as MEODP ie can extend to all of creation at it's best.

Though if you ask Mr Vale probably has some control over True Chaos but that’s a stretch and isn’t confirmed but makes sense from what we know

 

[Wankbreaker]

Straw man and we don’t even know how superordinate Vale is it’s likely he is a physical fighter with certain abstract abilities that counter full on abstract manipulators like Kishima Nanaya etc also true magic and magecrafts distinctions are illusory at best in Tsukihime worlds due to Unified Language being a thing.

Though if you ask Mr Vale probably has some control over True Chaos but that’s a stretch and isn’t confirmed but makes sense from what we know

5 magics, are the last 5 tasks humanity deemed impossible. this means that anything else is reproducible by magecraft or by some other method available to humanity. and as we know from knk, all 5 magics have something to do with time or space manipulation, and are the highest mysteries. you could argue that his time curse is a subset of an existing magic, like the fifth or second.

 

[HyperZero95]

soyou think his curse is above true magic? the highest forms of manipulation in their category? wow, amazing,altrouge must really be strong to keep someone like that under her control

Indeed, that's why she can manipulate Gaia down to an abstract level, turned Wallachia into an abstract phenomena, and is stated to rival Type-Moon himself, who is so powerful that Zelretch needed to permanently weaken himself to beat him while he underestimated him. Ik this is unfathomable to you because you think only Arcueid is allowed to be strong, but this is really just a new case of "you just have to accept other people can fight Arcueid".
Furthermore, there are no details on this curse. For all we know, it could be an ability that can only be used defensively, or only apply under specific circumstances. Regardless, this is nothing to Altrouge.

Carry on.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

5 magics, are the last 5 tasks humanity deemed impossible. this means that anything else is reproducible by magecraft or by some other method available to humanity. and as we know from knk, all 5 magics have something to do with time or space manipulation, and are the highest mysteries. you could argue that his time curse is a subset of an existing magic, like the fifth or second.

and as we know from knk, all 5 magics have something to do with time or space manipulation,

Literal Fanfiction since Mahoyo implies that the first magic changed everything at the beginning of reality and no before you mention it, Alice or your beloved Yumina have nothing to do with the first magic and secondly, the third magic is the materialization of the abstract soul in to a tangible form and gives you immortality and we have no idea what the fourth can do and the fifth cannot be realted to time as we know that the second's domain is time and the fifth replicated it on a whim likely meaning it has something to do with entropy which is mentioned in the vn and manipulating reality on all aspects not just time etc. Also, there are only five KNOWN magic's and there can be many more true magic's that humanity may have not discovered or known about in present etc.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

What abilities would grant absorbing one's soul in Nasuverse? I'm thinking of the ones Servant Physiology has by interacting with soul. Anything else?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Literal Fanfiction since Mahoyo implies that the first magic changed everything at the beginning of reality and no before you mention it, Alice or your beloved Yumina have nothing to do with the first magic and secondly, the third magic is the materialization of the abstract soul in to a tangible form and gives you immortality and we have no idea what the fourth can do and the fifth cannot be realted to time as we know that the second's domain is time and the fifth replicated it on a whim likely meaning it has something to do with entropy which is mentioned in the vn and manipulating reality on all aspects not just time etc. Also, there are only five KNOWN magic's and there can be many more true magic's that humanity may have not discovered or known about in present etc.

this is literally said in the series itself.

“... I see. In this sense, magi and Magicians were indeed different. Only things such as time and space manipulation were currently beyond the reach of humanity. In an era where limited forms of viewing the past and future had become possible, there were very few things that were indeed impossible.
Someday ---- humans would completely eliminate Magic. Youths became scientists as they attempted to understand fantastic things they witnessed as children. “

and no, only five magics exist


But along with the advancement of science, the number of things that "could be done" by people had increased, and in exchange, True Magic diminished. The number of remaining "True Magics" in the modern era are extremely few, only 5.

regardless,Avalon is said to block true magic in general.

One of the oldest True Magics but the details about it are unknown. What it involves appears to be common knowledge to some magi of privileged rank. Though the wielder of the First Magic is already passed from this World, it is said that a personage who is of direct descent narrowly survives.

combine this with the fact that the first magician left behind the great three, and the fact that Alice’s foundation is literally “Yumina”. come on, it can’t be more obvious.
she’s even the vessel for wandersnatch, one of the things left behind by that magician

 

[Wankbreaker]

Indeed, that's why she can manipulate Gaia down to an abstract level, turned Wallachia into an abstract phenomena, and is stated to rival Type-Moon himself, who is so powerful that Zelretch needed to permanently weaken himself to beat him while he underestimated him. Ik this is unfathomable to you because you think only Arcueid is allowed to be strong, but this is really just a new case of "you just have to accept other people can fight Arcueid".
Furthermore, there are no details on this curse. For all we know, it could be an ability that can only be used defensively, or only apply under specific circumstances. Regardless, this is nothing to Altrouge.

Carry on.

that’s WITH primate murder, and even then, KT says “it could be said”, and “in a way”,not in general,just “in a way”

the activation rules of the curse are irrelevant. what is relevant is that when it is active, a time related ability makes him invincible, even to MEODP.

also, you saying the curse is nothing to altrouge…proves my point. if she can bypass something that the MEODP cannot, that’s a huge antifeat to those eyes

 

[Wankbreaker]

What abilities would grant absorbing one's soul in Nasuverse? I'm thinking of the ones Servant Physiology has by interacting with soul. Anything else?

i think soul manipulation by absorption

 

[Wankbreaker]

 

[KingNanaya]

I can see you like to spam posts a lot

 

[Wankbreaker]

I can see you like to spam posts a lot

fate peak fake > weird KNK agenda that ruins the point of the series.

 

[KingNanaya]

The point of the series is to enjoy it. Where characters scale to hardly affects the writing that drew us to the series in the first place.

Scaling is fun and all, but there's more to enjoy in a series than just the tiers

 

[HyperZero95]

fate peak fake > weird KNK agenda that ruins the point of the series.

You know literally nothing about KnK. In fact, literally everything you have said about it break the narrative. Please

 

[HyperZero95]

The point of the series is to enjoy it. Where characters scale to hardly affects the writing that drew us to the series in the first place.

Scaling is fun and all, but there's more to enjoy in a series than just the tiers

Indeed. Yet there are people who have openly admitted to have not read the novels and yet still talks about their broken views of the series that destroys the narrative on every conceivable way.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The point of the series is to enjoy it. Where characters scale to hardly affects the writing that drew us to the series in the first place.

Scaling is fun and all, but there's more to enjoy in a series than just the tiers

im saying more of the point of:
pretending knk isn’t a lowscale urban centered work, makes many of the conflicts meaningless. KNK is mainly about interpersonal relations,not funny monks blowing up multiple continents with a single punch and killing ultimate ones.

 

[Wankbreaker]

You know literally nothing about KnK. In fact, literally everything you have said about it break the narrative. Please

even if this was true (it isn’t) we’ve showed many people in KNK related communities, and even translators on KNK related projects, and ALL of them have went “what the **** is this guy talking about lmao”

 

[HyperZero95]

Btw, to anyone reading. Neco's point about the curse of time being an anti feat for MEoDP is automatically invalid since that's about Tohno, not Ryougi. And Tohno was unable to kill abstract things in MB and KT. Ryougi on the other hand, has both statement and showings about her being able to kill the abstract. That's why she is stated to be several ranks above him as MEoDP user after all.
It has no bearing on a mastered MEoDP.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

The point of the series is to enjoy it. Where characters scale to hardly affects the writing that drew us to the series in the first place.

Scaling is fun and all, but there's more to enjoy in a series than just the tiers

Good writing is more then just how well you execute themes and characters. It is about keeping consistent power scaling and having it make sense of how beats who etc and also keeping the same worldview in the stories you write as having many stories with different messages is completely incoherent and nonsensical etc.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Btw, to anyone reading. Neco's point about the curse of time being an anti feat for MEoDP is automatically invalid since that's about Tohno, not Ryougi. And Tohno was unable to kill abstract things in MB and KT. Ryougi on the other hand, has both statement and showings about her being able to kill the abstract. That's why she is stated to be several ranks above him as MEoDP user after all.

Neco has a wierd KNK hate sink agenda and a wierd fate/tsukhime supremacist agenda too. Which doesn't matter since Araya>all of fate and tsukihime and the narrtive of KNK would fall down if this wasn't the case

 

[Wankbreaker]

Btw, to anyone reading. Neco's point about the curse of time being an anti feat for MEoDP is automatically invalid since that's about Tohno, not Ryougi. And Tohno was unable to kill abstract things in MB and KT. Ryougi on the other hand, has both statement and showings about her being able to kill the abstract. That's why she is stated to be several ranks above him as MEoDP user after all.

I won’t waste anymore time explaining who I am and not,but cope i guess

regardless,the actual potency of the death is the same, the difference in them is the perception, although this difference thins out.
also,what? tohno kills the concept of maiko, and kills the ultimate point of 666 existences. he also kills information in melty

 

[KingNanaya]

Good writing is more then just how well you execute themes and characters. It is about keeping consistent power scaling and having it make sense of how beats who etc and also keeping the same worldview in the stories you write as having many stories with different messages is completely incoherent and nonsensical etc.

Yeah, but the average person isn't watching Naruto because he's stronger than Otsutsuki Clan Member#8725, they're gonna watch because of the story. The strength and balancing of characters is important to the story, but it shouldn't be the main focus.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Neco has a wierd KNK hate sink agenda and a wierd fate/tsukhime supremacist agenda too. Which doesn't matter since Araya>all of fate and tsukihime and the narrtive of KNK would fall down if this wasn't the case

toukos box demon, a regular ass demon,not even a true demon, could defeat araya and absorb the ogawa complex

come on.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

toukos box demon, a regular ass demon,not even a true demon, could defeat araya and absorb the ogawa complex

come on.

And? all that means is that the demon may have been able to defeat Araya also it had metaphysical and abstract hax to counter Araya's barriers and reality warping which was localized since it could swallow Araya's complex which had an infinite universe inside it etc. Also KNK Araya is still above Touko massively in physical power

I won’t waste anymore time explaining who I am and not,but cope i guess

regardless,the actual potency of the death is the same, the difference in them is the perception, although this difference thins out.
also,what? tohno kills the concept of maiko, and kills the ultimate point of 666 existences. he also kills information in melty

The only one coping is you who copy pastes an insane lunatics talking points and same person thinks GAIA>ROOT btw and besides who cares if you aren't him you might as well be since you talk the same have the same grammar etc and MEODP is indeed a reminder that everything is created by and will be ended by the ONE (The Root) and the user not being able to kill things depends on the practice and potency of the eyes and also Tohno could not get rid of the TATARI phenomena and in Maiko Yamse's case he only killed her as a person not the chaos she was becoming and again, he can only kill concreate entities which is why he never pulled off a feat in his tohno self in KT and MB of idk killing the law of gravity by thought which is what Ryougi did to Araya's prison etc. regardless not wasting any more time with silly fate fans who love to wank an nonsensical verse like fate but downplay actually coherent and functional stories like KNK etc.

 

[KingNanaya]

Anyways, yall should help out when I make the FatexGrand Summoners profiles. I'm cooking up a lot.

 

[Tdjwo]

The only one coping is you who copy pastes an insane lunatics talking points and same person thinks GAIA>ROOT btw

see this is why I don't even bother arguing with Marshadow or anyone of these two guys here. Gaia>Root/Void Shiki is just something I don't understand how it came to be because what Shiki even said doesn't insinuate her being weaker than the counter force.

 

[Wankbreaker]

And? all that means is that the demon may have been able to defeat Araya also it had metaphysical and abstract hax to counter Araya's barriers and reality warping which was localized since it could swallow Araya's complex which had an infinite universe inside it etc. Also KNK Araya is still above Touko massively in physical power



The only one coping is you who copy pastes an insane lunatics talking points and same person thinks GAIA>ROOT btw and besides who cares if you aren't him you might as well be since you talk the same have the same grammar etc and MEODP is indeed a reminder that everything is created by and will be ended by the ONE (The Root) and the user not being able to kill things depends on the practice and potency of the eyes and also Tohno could not get rid of the TATARI phenomena and in Maiko Yamse's case he only killed her as a person not the chaos she was becoming and again, he can only kill concreate entities which is why he never pulled off a feat in his tohno self in KT and MB of idk killing the law of gravity by thought which is what Ryougi did to Araya's prison etc. regardless not wasting any more time with silly fate fans who love to wank an nonsensical verse like fate but downplay actually coherent and functional stories like KNK etc.

there is no difference in potency, only perception.

also, no one could stop the night of wallachia. it doesn’t even exist, as it has no beginning. killing the concept of a person is still abstract (how do you physically define that?)

Anyways, yall should help out when I make the FatexGrand Summoners profiles. I'm cooking up a lot.

what’s that? not sure I’ll be able to help much there, unless you need translation work

 

[Wankbreaker]

see this is why I don't even bother arguing with Marshadow or anyone of these two guys here. Gaia>Root/Void Shiki is just something I don't understand how it came to be because what Shiki even said doesn't insinuate her being weaker than the counter force.

not sure how araya > ultimate ones came to be,but it exists.

the root is called a microcosm of the world by shiki, and the Taiji is called that in materials.

 

[KingNanaya]

what’s that? not sure I’ll be able to help much there, unless you need translation work

Grand Summoners is a game that's having another collab with Prisma Illya in a few months.

 

[Wankbreaker]

all I’m going to say is, there’s a reason the omnipotent void agenda is nearly nonexistent in the JP fandom, this is a mainly western fandom thing

 

[Wankbreaker]

Grand Summoners is a game that's having another collab with Prisma Illya in a few months.

ah, i dislike prillya besides some few cool moments

 

[HyperZero95]

KNK is mainly about interpersonal relations,not funny monks blowing up multiple continents with a single punch and killing ultimate ones.

I'm not interested in casual anime-only watchers who haven't understood shit about the series. I read the novel 4 times and I understood the story just fine. If they wish to contest my takes, they are free to do so, but if they cannot back up their big talk, that's their problem. Speaking of that, here is what KnK is about:

Spoiler

From the start, Shiki’s life was devoid of genuine affection. She was raised to be a successor, not as a daughter. The only semblance of love she received came from SHIKI, the other self inside her. While SHIKI’s love was profound and unparalleled, it was also a double-edged sword. It made Shiki acutely aware of how incapable humans were of such unconditional love, further alienating her from them. The murderous impulses she believed came from SHIKI only deepened her isolation. To her, the only person who cared for her was also a source of great danger, making her fear that any semblance of normalcy or connection would eventually be tainted by violence. These impulses made her see humanity as inherently flawed and distasteful. She hated the idea of being a slave to these primal urges, which she thought would make her even worse than the humans she despised.Adding to her misery was her grandfather’s doctrine, which instilled in her a bleak outlook: kill, and you’ll end up alone and despised. Which only made Shiki feel even more doomed. Shiki spent her life training to become something she didn't care about, surrounded by people she saw as unworthy of her time. The one bright spot in her life was SHIKI, but even that was overshadowed by the inevitable reality that her moments of happiness were fleeting and doomed to end in isolation.

Then came Mikiya, a symbol of stability and normalcy that seemed almost miraculous to Shiki. For a while, he represented everything she had ever dreamed of, someone who made her emptiness feel meaningful. But Mikiya's presence also disrupted the uneasy balance with SHIKI. Shiki knew that eventually, she would lose control and that SHIKI would destroy Mikiya, which led her to distance herself from him, believing it would be less cruel to be away from something beautiful that she couldn’t protect. Resigned to her fate, Shiki found Mikiya’s unwavering faith in her both crushing and oddly hopeful. His belief, despite everything, was like a cruel joke, offering a fleeting illusion of a dream she thought was forever out of reach.As her emotional state deteriorated, Shiki contemplated ending Mikiya's life herself to protect him from the destruction she feared would come from SHIKI. But the unexpected intervention by Araya Souren, who saved Mikiya, gave Shiki a brief moment of clarity. Unable to reconcile her own feelings and her failure to protect Mikiya, Shiki resolved that if she couldn’t make him disappear, her only remaining choice was to end her own life. This resolution triggered a series of events that left her in a coma for two years, drifting in Akasha, a desolate void where she was left to confront nothingness and death.Waking up to find SHIKI gone, the one being who had truly loved her, was devastating. On top of that, her memories were fragmented, and the Shiki Ryougi she remembered felt like a distant stranger. The void within her only grew deeper, and the discovery of her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception revealed a world teetering on the brink of oblivion. They showed her that the Death she experienced those 2 years was actually always around the corner, and that all things are but one step away from fading away. This insight was overwhelming, pushing her to the brink of destroying her own eyes in a desperate attempt to escape her existential dread.

Yet, even in her darkest moments, Mikiya’s unwavering presence was a beacon of consistency. As she struggled with her lingering impulses and her identity, she found solace in Mikiya's constancy and the reminder from Touko that SHIKI had died for a reason, to give her a chance to fulfill their dream. Driven by this realisation, Shiki chose to honor SHIKI’s memory by trying to make something meaningful out of her life and build an identity of her own free from the torments of the past, even as she feared her own impulses would ultimately ruin everything. The hug with Mikiya at the end of Shiki’s journey is profoundly powerful, perhaps the first real embrace she’s ever known. It symbolizes not just the end of her trials but the fulfillment of a dream that had seemed forever out of reach. The ending of Kara no Kyoukai is a testament to Shiki’s endurance and her deserving of the love and happiness she ultimately finds.

And yet I'm supposed to believe that Ryougi would suddenly return to her family, whom she had little regard for, and comply with their expectations? It's even harder to believe that she would then succumb to typical human instincts (When her entire story is fighting these urges or instincts mind you. With those common in humans being one of the reasons she hates people) and decide to have a daughter. Given Shiki’s and Mikiya’s natures, both of which seem to reject such conventional desires. This development feels out of character. Shiki is deeply aware of humanity’s flaws and her own fundamental differences from them. Her primary attachment is to Mikiya, who represents the only source of meaning and connection in her life. So why would she bring a child into the world, knowing that this new life might inherit the very traits she despises? The prospect of their daughter potentially suffering a grim fate or growing up to cause suffering herself is troubling, especially considering the likelihood of her inheriting the Ryougi family’s dual personality trait. This could mean she’d end up as conflicted and miserable as Shiki’s grandfather, unable to balance her darker impulses without the Origin of Nothingness that Shiki herself possesses.

It’s also baffling to consider that Shiki and Mikiya would genuinely desire a child, given that this goes against both their worldviews and personal natures. Shiki, who harbors a deep-seated disdain for the world and its dangers, would be knowingly subjecting a new life to the same suffering she endured. This child could either become a source of suffering for others or fall victim to a tragic fate, mirroring the pain Shiki herself experienced.

The core issue with the modern interpretation of Shiki and Mikiya’s relationship stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of their characters. Their bond isn't meant to reflect humanity’s ability to forge connections despite adversity or to embrace human struggles, no, that's a twisted view to fit with Modern TM's and Nasu's agenda to spread humanist propaganda and promote progress over all else, including happiness. Instead, they are portrayed as outliers, individuals with fundamentally different mindsets from the average person. Mikiya is an exception, content with a simple, stable life, while Shiki's emptiness finds solace in this rare connection. The narrative of Kara no Kyoukai emphasizes that their strength lies in their unique natures and the way they complement each other, not in conforming to traditional human experiences or expectations.Thus, the notion of disrupting their peace with a child or deeply involving themselves with the Ryougi family contradicts the core themes of the story. Shiki’s journey is about finding meaning and stability in her own way, not about embracing or replicating human norms and struggles. Nasu's claim in an interview that she lacks “strength of mind” or that her later depictions in Mirai Fukuin and especially GO is a distortion of what makes her story compelling and unique. A complete character assassination. a misstep that doesn’t align with the core themes of Kara no Kyoukai, which focus on individuals who are fundamentally different from the norm and find meaning in their unique ways. This is why MF is objectively a contradiction to the story and not canon.

And there is much more, like Araya's quest, but it would be a waste of time with you. You don't know anything about the series.

pretending knk isn’t a lowscale urban centered work

You assert that Kara no Kyoukai is low-scale. That’s an intriguing stance, considering Asagami's destruction of an entire bridge, Araya’s creation of an infinite dimension that Ryougi erased, Void’s stated ability to crush and rewrite the world at will, Alba’s 3000-degree conflagrations that can obliterate common living objects, Araya’s plan to destroy all of creation, and God’s Word’s capacity to hypnotize all of creation and alter reality with unified language. I have provided explicit scans from the novel itself to support these points, yet you haven’t addressed any of them. This amounts to an automatic concession. Your argument, along with those of your allies, falls apart when challenged by someone who has thoroughly read Kara no Kyoukai, understood its plot, and grasped the broader, more subtle meanings and symbolism.

While explosive displays of power aren't the story's focus, it doesn’t mean these characters lack such potential. Their immense power can coexist with a more personal and intimate narrative. Your point lacks logic, as usual.

Tsukihime is an urban tale with a low scale of destruction, the greatest being a collapsing hallway. Does that make it fodder now? Of course not. The spectacle of a fight doesn’t determine the combatants' power. Consider Notes, which, though primarily a drama, takes place in the middle a war featuring extremely powerful characters. This is especially true for Kara no Kyoukai, which emphasizes existential aspects and abstract concepts within the franchise. These concepts, while not physically visible or present in space, serve as the rules governing creation and possess immense power.

Araya's goal was to use Ryougi's body to end all of creation and bring about a perfect realm of Death. So their fight was the most important fight in TM with the highest stakes, despite it having a small visual scale. Feel free to repeat that "KnK is an urbane series" all you want, but it does not change the objective fact, written in permanent ink that Araya would have destroyed everything should he have completed his objective.

not funny monks

Who is this funny monk you speak of? Let's ask the actual story:

Despite the disdain, she didn't hate the mage. Araya Souren had lived too long, becoming a concept. If she had taken a different path, she could have ended up like him—a being that was no longer human, merely a manifestation of an abstract theory. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

The mage's discourse continues."As a reference, I do not die. My origin is 'suspension'. Someone who has woken to their origin becomes ruled by that origin itself. Someone who has already stopped - how can you kill him?" Shiki doesn't reply.

Those who awaken to their origin are bound by their origin. I see. My impulse was Stillness" The magus said this, not to anyone, but in irony. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

No, it wasn't magecraft. A mystery that used a twisted dimension of this level was already no longer on the level of magecraft.

This was --- that was right, a mystery of a province unreachable with today's knowledge. There was no doubt that this was an act of absolute power that human hands could not reach, magic. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

A temple of Taiji. It could be called the artificial manifestation of the inner landscape of Araya Souren, who did not have a Reality Marble. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

Ah, so we have a living abstract concept who has achieved true immortality and unlocked powers related to the Origin shaping his existence. With said Origin being the Balance managing the logical framework and the fundamental dualities of all of creation. Yes, that can very easily kill Types if you ask me. However, his mastery over these powers will only occur in a future generation, which the current story does not explore. This counters any stupid strawmans of "Muh you want the narrative to focus on pawah!" . Araya does not fully realize his abilities to easily defeat powerful beings during the story because the narrative isn't about showcasing his strength. Nevertheless, this potential still exists. If you disagree, please provide concrete arguments and unbiased evidence from the novel. In fact, I already wrote a lengthy explanation and linked a thread explaining even more in detail how Araya actually works and the full scope of his powers. But you haven't even attempted to address them. Because you know you cannot, even in your best day. Furthermore, Araya isn’t actively depicted as “punching continents” because that’s not the focus, though it’s clear he surpasses characters capable of such feats still. This is entirely consistent with the narrative.

makes many of the conflicts meaningless.

This is not an argument. Even powerful characters can have conflicts over seemingly trivial matters. There's no direct correlation between a character's power and the significance of their conflicts. Once again, you are in dire need of professional help. And even then, I already went over how the most important battle (Araya vs Ryougi) has actually the highest stakes in every other TM series.

even if this was true (it isn’t) we’ve showed many people in KNK related communities, and even translators on KNK related projects, and ALL of them have went “what the **** is this guy talking about lmao”

This simply means I have a much stronger grasp of the narrative implications and can connect the dots better than others. It’s not surprising. Many haven’t even read the novel. Being good at translation doesn’t equate to a deeper understanding of the text. Ah, and it's nice to know that this is what they do, instead of actually translating the damn novel finally. Lmao. Naturally, my views might seem alien to them, but that’s not my concern. Unless they come forward with concrete evidence to support their claims, they’re just making noise, complaining about facts that challenge their preconceived beliefs, like many people do. It’s ironic because Kara no Kyoukai criticizes this very type of mindset. Araya’s desire to destroy humanity stems from their vile and contradicting nature, and the narrative never depicts him as wrong; guidebooks even describe him as the true protagonist.

The fact that those people think KnK is a "low tier setting", despite the fact that Shiki's killing instinct, powers, and nature stems from her being the avatar of Akasha is absurd and shows how little they understood of the narrative.

Like, are you genuinely saying, that the series about the chick that can kill everything with her eyes is a "mundane" story? Clown town.

By your shitty logic, if I were to write a story that's purely a dialogue between Archetype Earth and Altrouge, would that make them human-level simply because the focus is on their conversation and ideologies? Do you realize how utterly brain-dead this sounds? Either you do, but apply double standards to KnK because of your extreme and blatant bias, or you are genuinely unable to grasp the point, which is consistent with you failing to grasp virtually any of my points.

The moment you people use this argument, you have already lost. It shows you fundamentally misunderstand the series and you are just desperate to handwave everything impressive about it with "muh plot and feel-good" bullshit.

Also, it’s amusing that you bring this up when you’re widely dismissed by those with even basic knowledge of the series. You’re infamous for ruining the TM scene on this wiki, for your obsession with Arcueid, for your erratic behavior, and for making absurd claims like “Earth > The Root” or Tohno being able to one-shot Akasha. And now we can add misinterpreting a series you have never read in any capacity to suit your problematic obession for Arcueid to the list.
If you want to take up the card of "Muh I'm going to claim a bunch of random people don't like you as if that is going to make your arguments any less valid", then you actually have to merely look in the mirror.


Slaughtered by yours truly.

 

[HyperZero95]

Yeah, but the average person isn't watching Naruto because he's stronger than Otsutsuki Clan Member#8725, they're gonna watch because of the story. The strength and balancing of characters is important to the story, but it shouldn't be the main focus.

The problems comes though when the power levels are deeply tied into the narrative. For example, Neco thinks that Void is fodder and not capable of high scale reality warping. If that were true, Araya’s plan to use her powers to end creation would be impossible, rendering his entire quest nonsensical. This would cause the entire narrative to lose its logic. There are many other examples where this perspective falls apart. While power levels aren’t the main focus, they still play an important role in the narrative, adding tension and depth to the characters’ struggles.

 

[HyperZero95]

Oh, just going to address Neco's famous "microcosm" point. All we need to do is pull out the dictionary:

Akasha, the boundless source of creation, holds the building blocks for all possible things. These elements can combine to generate constructs such as space and time, thereby governing them through fundamental rules. This is why Akasha is described as a "microcosm" of the world: it represents reality at its most fundamental level, embodying the essential concepts that form the "building blocks" of all existence.

This is why the actual translation from BL forums actually describes it also as "the floor-plan of reality":

—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

So all that Neco is doing with this argument is:

1- fundamentally butchering the entire logic behind the franchise, by claiming that the material world is somehow superior to the abstract forms which allows said world to exist and function in the first place.
2-Showing that he is in dire need of going back to elementary school.
3-Showing he is willing to defy all logic for the sake of his funny vampire waifu.

 

[HyperZero95]

see this is why I don't even bother arguing with Marshadow or anyone of these two guys here. Gaia>Root/Void Shiki is just something I don't understand how it came to be because what Shiki even said doesn't insinuate her being weaker than the counter force.

Would you believe me if I said I’m utterly exhausted from trying to instill common sense in these individuals? It feels like talking to a wall.

I completely agree and think I should also just end it here and don't look at their nonsense anymore. It's not worth it. I have shattered them beyond any hope already. That way, I MIGHT just recover all the braincells that I lost interacting with them. The only reason I kept going is because that clown accused me of misunderstanding KnK's story, not merely the scaling, even though he made it evident he hasn't even read it in the first place.