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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Maxeez said:
Maybe because the erasure of souls system didn't need to be that complicated since no one is able to survive from it in the first place ?
Shiki could also destroy his soul since she directly gets her hax from the Root, just like SHS. It's just that there was no need for such a powerful thing to simply erase souls in the cycle of life. There are maybe issues in how Roa's soul is being handled here, but to be honest I can't be bothered in searching if and how it's really the case.
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This was made some days ago, but had to comment:

This just doesn't make sense. Be it Kara or Root, it was never said to have anything such as soul, personality or will - it does not lack merely a form like spiritual beings, it lacks "meaning" itself - nor to be a place that actually "exists" somewhere. It has no purpose or reason behind its existence - You are basically saying something like "Airplanes are above the Law of Gravity because they can fly." or "Gravity intentionally pulls things towards the center of mass with purpose/reason."

We are talking about something that to Nasuverse is the same thing as the laws or workings of Reality. There's no need to anything, they just are like that because that's what they are. There's no issue because it lacks purpose or intention behind being how it is.

“If you really wished to pronounce the term, call it「Kara」”
This first line is the second most important part of the entire statement. It claims that 「　」meant Kara. A Japanese word for “Emptiness” or “Nothingness.” 「　」is an Apophatic attempt to describe what the ineffable 「　」is. That means the symbol 「　」is God. In short, 「　」is the silent way of saying God(Apophatic Theology) by saying nothing or doing nothing, which makes quite a lot of sense since its translation is called “Kara,” which also means “Nothingness.”
“Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.”
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I have an opinion that, though never stated, has some merit (or at least I think so) - 「　」is trying to define something that is "boundless". That is, it is a boundary around something that should lack boundaries. This seems like a contradiction, but it actually follows the logic of the Nasuverse, because:
As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom. Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplate the world both as it should be and as it is.
Click to expand...
So, while it is ONE thing, it doesn't have any type of limit or boundary, the "thing" that defines anything as "one thing". It can only be such because it is the realm where this contradiction, or co-existence of opposites, can be in the same place, together.

"Kara", as a reading of the kanji 空, - not actually a noun by itself, but a PREFIX - can mean something is empty, something is innefective or something is false. This again plays with the duality between things, in a way - in KNK we are told it is without limits while being one, in opposition or contrast to infinity, limited while being "many". The three meanings here can be interpreted as "descriptive" of the attempt itself, or as somehow humorous - "something empty", but the symbol itself lacks closed borders and therefore doesn't really defines the limits of anything, "innefective" (used in, for example, "in vain") because the attempt to define it is itself a failure, and "false" because it doesn't really refer to the thing it was supposed to refer to. 「　」is a boundary/limit that doesn't define anything - it's a boundary while not being a boundary, because it doesn't bound anything. Such is the attempt to define 「　」/Kara, a definition that doesn't define the thing it was supposed to, but something else.

But, at the same time, if you think about it, the is a perfect symbol for what it's trying to define. Reason One is because "kara", the sound, can refer to what would be translated as "from, out of"/"beginning with"/"because"/"since", derived from a kanji meaning "origin/source". Reason Two is because not only it also is one of the readings of "sora", it has such reading when being a cognate of a kanji meaning "Shell". It technically fails at it's attempt, but because it fails, for it being empty of a meaning, it is the closest thing to what it was trying to refer to. (And, if you played or read the Fate games material, you may remember this was exactly the description given for Holy Grails, in BB's Matrix)
01 - Golden Grail [EX]
The golden grail that BB owns. Also called the Holy Grail.
A negative grail that grants its owner's impudent and selfish wishes.

The grail held by the great ***** of Babylon who appears in the Revelation to John. Though it is a fake Holy Grail, it is for that reason that it has become a "genuine" Holy Grail that grants the desires of humans regardless of right or wrong.
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One additional thing, about Magi - can't remember exactly where, but it was said that Age of Gods magi never thought of searching for the root because it existed around them, something like that. Age of Man magi search for it, and therefore start from the supposition that it is somewhere else/not in their immediate reach. "How to reach a place that is, in definition, a place that can't be reached?" - Funny enough, by defining said place as the place you already is at, and therefore, from the start, being in it - there's no need to look/search for the "place" you already are at. "How do you reach a place that is unreachable?" - by failing or by being there and failing to recognize it/not accepting, given Caubac new entry from TsukiRe.
 
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This whole comment was rather useless because of this :
There are maybe issues in how Roa's soul is being handled here, but to be honest I can't be bothered in searching if and how it's really the case.
Click to expand...
And it seems to indeed be the case, looking at some people's comments on both recent CRTs and discord.
So yeah I was right, there is an issue somewhere.
 
Maxeez said:
This whole comment was rather useless because of this :

And it seems to indeed be the case, looking at some people's comments on both recent CRTs and discord.
So yeah I was right, there is an issue somewhere.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to the CRT where Roa's soul was discussed?
I can maybe try searching it up. I can think of some things that may be happening, but it would involve rereading Fate games and Tsuki, aka, lots of quotations and searching.

Roa's soul is at least described (emphasis in described, as in, different words, that may or may not be a different in lore thing) differently in Tsuki/TsukiRe, and in Fate games souls are again given descriptions that are hard to piece together. It's easy to see how trying to aggregate all that lore in one idea may go wrong somehow. One of the things that is hard to get around is what exactly Roa did to/with his soul, especilly because souls in Nasu are weird.
 
LehenDuo said:
Do you have a link to the CRT where Roa's soul was discussed?
I can maybe try searching it up. I can think of some things that may be happening, but it would involve rereading Fate games and Tsuki, aka, lots of quotations and searching.

Roa's soul is at least described (emphasis in described, as in, different words, that may or may not be a different in lore thing) differently in Tsuki/TsukiRe, and in Fate games souls are again given descriptions that are hard to piece together. It's easy to see how trying to aggregate all that lore in one idea may go wrong somehow. One of the things that is hard to get around is what exactly Roa did to/with his soul, especilly because souls in Nasu are weird.
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Here.
 
Hello there. I want to ask a question about F/sn Berserker if it's not a problem

When F/sn Berserker is brought upon matchups, how do you guys approach this rule?:
"Note: Due to its unusual mechanics, it is challenging to apply God Hand's attack negating effects to other attacks in versus threads, as there is no way to judge the "rank" of attacks outside the Nasuverse."

I tried analyzing some of Berserker matchups for answers but nothing came up
 
That note should probably be removed.
In short, most servants are hard to match make with as they, as Divine Mysteries, negate all damage that does not have Mystery. Heracles takes this a level beyond with God Hand.
Most servant match ups are with D&D characters or other servants because the ability to ignore Invulnerability on this scale is rare. Although now that servants are much higher in tier 6, D&D matches are also likely to go away. So basically, you don't have to worry about God Hand if you use servants or other Nasu characters.
 
Mageman460 said:
That note should probably be removed.
In short, most servants are hard to match make with as they, as Divine Mysteries, negate all damage that does not have Mystery. Heracles takes this a level beyond with God Hand.
Most servant match ups are with D&D characters or other servants because the ability to ignore Invulnerability on this scale is rare. Although now that servants are much higher in tier 6, D&D matches are also likely to go away. So basically, you don't have to worry about God Hand if you use servants or other Nasu characters.
Click to expand...
So servants are pretty much unmatchable against non-nasuverse characters, is there any possible verse left that could work then?
 
Mageman460 said:
That note should probably be removed.
In short, most servants are hard to match make with as they, as Divine Mysteries, negate all damage that does not have Mystery. Heracles takes this a level beyond with God Hand.
Most servant match ups are with D&D characters or other servants because the ability to ignore Invulnerability on this scale is rare. Although now that servants are much higher in tier 6, D&D matches are also likely to go away. So basically, you don't have to worry about God Hand if you use servants or other Nasu characters.
Click to expand...
And here I thought that it was "If it's on the same tier as his durability, it will affect him. Otherwise, it's game over"

Also, isn't Mystery vaguely defined as anything supernatural by the standards of the modern world?
 
SupremeGilgamesh said:
And here I thought that it was "If it's on the same tier as his durability, it will affect him. Otherwise, it's game over"

Also, isn't Mystery vaguely defined as anything supernatural by the standards of the modern world?
Click to expand...

It's more like higher mystery = wider range of possible flow of phenomena, it's in KNK. A, so to say, variable answer (outcome) to the same question (process), or vice-versa (because the piling up of time itself, and therefore the perception of what is the process and what is the outcome is itself a human thing). The interpretation of Mystery = supernatural falls flat really fast when things like "the mystery of the metamorphosis of butterflies" is invoked for Pappilo Magia or things like that, or when True Ancestors or Elementals are basically "Nature" Incarnate.

It's a mystery not in the sense that it is a secret ("A" process = "A" outcome, but you don't know that), but in the sense that it's mysterious. You could, maybe, even say that the making of this mystery a secret by Age of Man (the "shining of the light" of science upon its darkness) is the thing that lead to its decline in AoM.

I can't remember exactly, but even the use of "supernatural" here is very questionable. As far as I can remember, Nasuverse itself always make the opposition of natural (and here the natural would include the magical shit, Elementals, Fairies, Mana itself - Marble Phantasms, for example) and artificial (that is written, in kanji, basically as man-made, that is also the meaning in english, but people tend to forget that), and Nature Incarnate themselves being basically one of the highest types of Mystery, calling it SUPERnatural would be contraditory.
 
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LehenDuo said:
It's more like higher mystery = wider range of possible flow of phenomena, it's in KNK. A, so to say, variable answer (outcome) to the same question (process), or vice-versa (because the piling up of time itself, and therefore the perception of what is the process and what is the outcome is itself a human thing). The interpretation of Mystery = supernatural falls flat really fast when things like "the mystery of the metamorphosis of butterflies" is invoked for Pappilo Magia or things like that, or when True Ancestors or Elementals are basically "Nature" Incarnate.

It's a mystery not in the sense that it is a secret ("A" process = "A" outcome, but you don't know that), but in the sense that it's mysterious. You could, maybe, even say that the making of this mystery a secret by Age of Man (the "shining of the light" of science upon its darkness) is the thing that lead to its decline in AoM.

I can't remember exactly, but even the use of "supernatural" here is very questionable. As far as I can remember, Nasuverse itself always make the opposition of natural (and here the natural would include the magical shit, Elementals, Fairies, Mana itself - Marble Phantasms, for example) and artificial (that is written, in kanji, basically as man-made, that is also the meaning in english, but people tend to forget that), and Nature Incarnate themselves being basically one of the highest types of Mystery, calling it SUPERnatural would be contraditory.
Click to expand...
......I thank you for service in explaining this fact but I humbly request that you translate this information like you're talking to a casual visual media (movies, animation, comic books, etc) geek who's knowledge of philosophy and physics is only "slept on the table" highschool level
 
SupremeGilgamesh said:
......I thank you for service in explaining this fact but I humbly request that you translate this information like you're talking to a casual visual media (movies, animation, comic books, etc) geek who's knowledge of philosophy and physics is only "slept on the table" highschool level
Click to expand...
Believe me, I understand your feelings, he talk in a unnecessarily complex and weird way that make things hard to understand, so to answer the question:
SupremeGilgamesh said:
Also, isn't Mystery vaguely defined as anything supernatural by the standards of the modern world?
Click to expand...
Essentially speaking yes, is anything supernatural, however due to the standards of the verse itself with all the detailed background information, mystery is accepted at minimum as 4D in nature in the wiki, which is why servants can't have matches against non-smurfs, and even then the opponent need to be a strong smurf to also bypass the servants resistances and such.
 
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Expectro2000xxx said:
Believe me, I understand your feelings, he talk in a unnecessarily complex and weird way that make things hard to understand, so to answer the question:
Click to expand...
That is actually the way the things are described in the novel itself, so if they are unnecesarily complex or weird, blame Nasu

The works that explain the mechanics with any depth are written either by Nasu or by Sanda - Nasu's written style is cryptic at best, and most people who actually know japanese have said it seems he goes out of his way to make his writting hard to understand. Sanda, even if his phrases and etc are easy to understand or translate, if you ever read it you know, deal with concepts at a level that most of the time doesn't really seem to make sense or be connected at all.

SupremeGilgamesh said:
......I thank you for service in explaining this fact but I humbly request that you translate this information like you're talking to a casual visual media (movies, animation, comic books, etc) geek who's knowledge of philosophy and physics is only "slept on the table" highschool level
Click to expand...
To claim "Mystery = Supernatural", using Nasuverse in-lore, is problematic because the things that are natural are one of the most mysterious of the things in the verse, for example, True Ancestors and Marble Phantasms. It's hard to explain not phylosophically because the basis of the very verse is philosophical as ****. (with Waifus, because waifus make every better)

The definition of Mystery just doesn't translate to other works (or to any deterministic description) because it is not something that is merely hidden, but something that actually cannot be explained, at least in a specific point in time by the humans. This is a main point of Waver's "Sherlock-esque" problem solving, he never try to discover the HOW something was done in cases involving Mystery/Magecraft, because that's futile.

So, for example, "Kami", the natural god-like spirits of nature - you may call them supernatural in our reality, they do have Mystery in the context of Nasuverse, but they are literally NATURE ITSELF in Nasuverse, so calling them supernatural is like calling physical matter metaphysical. It's a contradiction from the beginning.
 
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LehenDuo said:
That is actually the way the things are described in the novel itself, so if they are unnecesarily complex or weird, blame Nasu
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Cool, that isn't excuse to write such post purposely complex for a really simple question, something that btw you do in general each time you post (even with really simple questions).
LehenDuo said:
To claim "Mystery = Supernatural", using Nasuverse in-lore, is problematic because the things that are natural are one of the most mysterious of the things in the verse, for example, True Ancestors and Marble Phantasms. It's hard to explain not phylosophically because the basis of the very verse is philosophical as ****. (with Waifus, because waifus make every better)

The definition of Mystery just doesn't translate to other works (or to any deterministic description) because it is not something that is merely hidden, but something that actually cannot be explained, at least in a specific point in time by the humans. This is a main point of Waver's "Sherlock-esque" problem solving, he never try to discover the HOW something was done in cases involving Mystery/Magecraft, because that's futile.

So, for example, "Kami", the natural god-like spirits of nature - you may call them supernatural in our reality, they do have Mystery in the context of Nasuverse, but they are literally NATURE ITSELF in Nasuverse, so calling them supernatural is like calling physical matter metaphysical. It's a contradiction from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Is supernatural, the things you are mentioning are supernatural by the definition, things like vampires, authorities, magic, etc.

Also, that example about gods is so wrong because in real life nature and concepts don't manifest as physical beings with their own personalities and superpowers, that is the most blatant definition of supernatural that there can exist. Additionally, nature itself taking form in fiction is pretty common but that don't make it any less supernatural.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
Cool, that isn't excuse to write such post purposely complex for a really simple question, something that btw you do in general each time you post (even with really simple questions).

Is supernatural, the things you are mentioning are supernatural by the definition, things like vampires, authorities, magic, etc.

Also, that example about gods is so wrong because in real life nature and concepts don't manifest as physical beings with their own personalities and superpowers, that is the most blatant definition of supernatural that there can exist. Additionally, nature itself taking form in fiction is pretty common but that don't make it any less supernatural.
Click to expand...

You are literally not talking about Nasuverse anymore. The way you are using words, you can call Mystery Chi and itcould be right. And you are not even right, that's the point, because Kami actually were believed to be manifested in nature itself and not apart from the physical reality we live in, but you are forcing western metaphyisical interpretations upon things that just never had any influence or even contact with them...

It's okay to not understand what something is trying to say, specially because it's a translation + it's not trying to be easy to understand in the first place, but you are not explaining them, you are just confusing the verse concepts with different things...
 
LehenDuo said:
You are literally not talking about Nasuverse anymore. The way you are using words, you can call Mystery Chi and itcould be right. And you are not even right, that's the point, because Kami actually were believed to be manifested in nature itself and not apart from the physical reality we live in, but you are forcing western metaphyisical interpretations upon things that just never had any influence or even contact with them...

It's okay to not understand what something is trying to say, specially because it's a translation + it's not trying to be easy to understand in the first place, but you are not explaining them, you are just confusing the verse concepts with different things...
Click to expand...
Dude, if you want to have such a unnecessarily weird and incorrect view of things, and you are happy with it, then fine, you are in your right.

However, from an objetive point of view things like magic, superpowers, spirits, vampires, manifestation of literal concepts, etc. ARE supernatural, so there is no actual debate to have with that.

Now that @SupremeGilgamesh question was answered I will stop to respond to you, go to do my things and likely add some things to one of my sandboxes of crt since I just ended Heian-kyo and there were some interesting thing for various servants.
 
This has been a great discussion

I went into this thread asking what was up with Berserker invulnerability under the belief that the ability was "He can't be harmed/affected by anything short of his durability tier or higher"

And now I am leaving with the knowledge that Servants may as well fistfight the One Above All because they are immune to nearly everything that has concrete and understood rules and are considerably famous and/or popular which is almost everything in fiction

So it has been fun
 
MrUnderlord said:
Hi guys, Here's a question: in Nasuverse there are confirmed dimensions only for 1-C. Why Root is 1-A?
Click to expand...
According to the wiki, it's because it's above dimensional theory and has apophatic theology(mistakened for []) which are both 1A justifications by default.
 
Tdjwo said:
And you do realize how badly that contradicts apophatic Theology? The biggest issue is the fact that Roa can reach and survive the root. Something beyond description, comprehension and only reached by negation is supposed to never be reachable to Roa and even if it somehow was, it's supposed to completely erase him yet he can withstand thay using magic of what? Why can he resist something that's supposedly apophatic in nature? Makes no sense.
Click to expand...
It doesn't contradict apophatic theology.

Roa can't reach and survive the root. Every soul pass through the root. He just use a way to make his soul not being erased and have his memory being transmited. Being beyond description comprehension etc doesn't mean it's not reachable (otherwise would just be tier 0)
Magic litteraly came from the root so having a advanced part of it being able to do it is not that streched.
 
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BestMGQScalerEver said:
Not really. Even DT doesn't agree with Apophatic stuff (or related). Overvoid is in a very similar situation with it being above all conceptions and its downgrade to 1-C will be cemented and also result in downgrade of The Root if the thread passes.
Click to expand...
DT doesn't agree to give it a tier just for the sake of it
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Not really. Even DT doesn't agree with Apophatic stuff (or related). Overvoid is in a very similar situation with it being above all conceptions and its downgrade to 1-C will be cemented and also result in downgrade of The Root if the thread passes.
Click to expand...
Overvoid doesn't even have Apophatic Theology. DT barely knows anything about Apophatic Theology. It's Ultima who understands it. And Apophatic Theology is already a justification used on this site.
 
Regidian said:
It doesn't contradict apophatic theology.

Roa can't reach and survive the root. Every soul pass through the root.
Click to expand...
souls passing it is already bs. Souls logically arent supposed to reach an Apophatic entity which is why I keep saying root is different from「　」but I'm not ready to argue thay again
Regidian said:
Being beyond description comprehension etc doesn't mean it's not reachable (otherwise would just be tier 0)
Click to expand...
Now you see, here is the exact reason why Ultima tried making Apophatic Theology tier 0. Because an apophatic being is beyond description and comprehension thus unreachable and ineffable which makes it tier 0 because not even language can comprehend it. It being 1A is already bs which is exactly what Ultima explained in the past.
Regidian said:
Magic litteraly came from the root so having a advanced part of it being able to do it is not that streched.
Click to expand...
Concepts also trace on till they reach the root which also contradicts the root being unreachable.
 
Tdjwo said:
souls passing it is already bs. Souls logically arent supposed to reach an Apophatic entity which is why I keep saying root is different from「　」but I'm not ready to argue thay again

Now you see, here is the exact reason why Ultima tried making Apophatic Theology tier 0. Because an apophatic being is beyond description and comprehension thus unreachable and ineffable which makes it tier 0 because not even language can comprehend it. It being 1A is already bs which is exactly what Ultima explained in the past.

Concepts also trace on till they reach the root which also contradicts the root being unreachable.
Click to expand...
They nothing that stop soul reaching an apopathic entity (even more when the whole verse exist within it and that without bs soul are on same level than the root).

And not really, concept are part of root like litteraly everything in the verse. I don't think you understand that everything in the verse exist in the root. The verse is the root, and everything originated from it and return to it. Root is apophatic in nature because it's not something you can apply a definition/word etc to it. You can't qualify it and so everything you talk/reach about is something "different" it's the only thing that differencie root to [] it's that root is what we define it and [] is the real thing.
 
Ultima's word isn't law, we have other people who are well versed in tiering who disagrees with stuff (like DT) he believes in such as Ultima thinking being above concept of dimensions is High 1-A and tier 0 apophatic. About that.
Tdjwo said:
Overvoid doesn't even have Apophatic Theology. DT barely knows anything about Apophatic Theology. It's Ultima who understands it. And Apophatic Theology is already a justification used on this site.
Click to expand...
Oh sweet summer child..
The Monitor-Mind is the unconscious void of nothingness that lies as the background of all creation, standing utterly devoid of definition, beyond the crumbling ledge of the Source Wall wherein Thought itself ceases to be and all dual concepts are dissolved into unity. Represents the white canvas of the comicbook itself, being the ground of being in which all characters and concepts of DC Comics are drawn in, and acting as the middle ground between the fictional reality occupied by them and the world of the Writer
Click to expand...
Can't tell me this doesn't essentially just sound like The Root.
 
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