Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Summary​

Took a while, huh? Sorry, burned out+IRL business took precedence over CRTs.

So, after the first thread went through mostly painlessly, next will be a closely related subject - scaling to the Root. It should be emphasized that none of this scales to physical statistics or raw AP (with the exception of the Greater Grail part), just scaling for hax. This isn't accounting for Shiki's Connection to the Root or the Unified Language, both of which are already accepted to scale to that level.

Roa’s Soul​

A large amount of this scaling comes from a particular source, Roa. While souls are supposed to be completely dissolved and recycled upon the person's death by entering the Root-

“"That's the power they needed.
They tried to exit into the outer world using that power.
That's the real purpose of the Holy Grail in this land.
The Holy Grail Wars were waged to create a phenomenon, a miracle, that is still out of human reach.
That’s the great ritual to attain immortality that’s been lost to the Einzberns. Not a heroic spirit or a holy spirit, but a soul of a mere human that's fated to disappear from this world. Bringing it about is an act of God."-Heaven’s Feel, Day 14

"Soujuurou: Aozaki. What do you mean no one has returned alive?
Aoko: I mean that no one touching the Root has ever come back. On a global scale. You touch it, you cease to exist on the spot. The very moment the likes of a human soul touches it, it’ll go back to “where it came from" or be absorbed into the Root, or something.
Aoko: So, even the mages who have left their name in history have refrained from touching just that. At the best, they get close to it to stabilize their own magecraft in a hurry.- http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General True Magic and Root Information"

-Roa is unique in that his soul is able to pass through the Root and remain intact, allowing him to reincarnate several times over the course of centuries. In Tsukihime, the only abilities that are able to kill him permanently are Ciel's Seventh Holy Scripture (Which can disperse his soul into nothingness due to being imbued with the concept of "rejecting reincarnation") and the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception possessed by Tohno Shiki, the latter ultimately killing him during the events of Tsukihime.

"------Eh?

"Tohno Shiki has acted on what he thought was the best choice. You don't need to burden yourself with what Ciel wants. If you do that, you will be burdened by someone else's dream like earlier."

----Although there's no one else than me here anymore, I can hear someone else's voice.

"Yeah. You woke yourself from the dream, so there is nothing else here besides Shiki.
I see, you can use your brain a little, Tohno Shiki."

----Then, you are.

"No. I don't want you to get the wrong impression. Roa was killed by you already.
In the first place, if Roa still existed, then there would be no way you could exist.
Even though you are already dead."

----I don't, quite get it.
Then what am I, right now?-Ciel Route, Tsukihime"

Additionally, in the Heroic Spirit Lore Strange Tales: King of the Cavern drama CD, a living Dantes encounters Roa in one of his various reincarnations known as Tarantella. The two end up engaging in a battle, and Dantes ends up tapping into the abilities of Monte Cristo Mythologie, using its flames to win the battle. While Roa is initially confident he'll survive by reincarnating like he always does, Dantes reveals that the NP's flames burn the soul itself, causing Roa to break down as he dies and ultimately resulting in him being erased entirely, as shown here.

Interesting to note is that TATARI can't die even after being destroyed by the MEoDP, meaning their regeneration and immortalities also work on that level. (although it won't be nescessary to edit it's page)

Greater Grail​

Now as for the other part of this thread, there is the Greater Grail. As is widely known, the Greater Grail is the pathway to the Root which all magi strive for.

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.
I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.
The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."-Heaven’s Feel Day 14

Being the pathway to the Root that utilizes it’s connection to the Origin to grant wishes, it should have similar properties to Ryougi Shiki’s wish granting capabilities. But, who would even scale to this? The answer is ******* Sieg of all people, since he is the Greater Grail’s Custodian.

Which should give him Reality Warping added to his profile, as well as Shiki’s “all powers in the Nasuverse” thing and 1-A rating through reality warping.

Angra's last key should also scale to the same things noted above, as he literally is the Fuyuki Greater Grail.
Conclusions
Roa should have Resistance to Soul Manipulation with the proper reasonings.

Shiki, Ciel and Dantes should have their ability explanations tweaked to scale to Roa.

Sieg and Angra should have a "1-A via Reality Warping" rating added, as well as Reality Warping and acess to all of the Nasuverse's powers (although for the record utilizing this is severely out of character, so that should be added in a weakness)

 

[Paul_Frank]

I agree with this hard not to when I spent like 4 hours looking for scans s m h m y h e a d

One thing I'll note that's not brought up in the OP is that, similar to how Sieg would scale for being able to use the greater grail as he's the custodian or whatever, which is just really pathway to the root, Angra's last key should likely also scale, for just being the greater grail

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

One thing I'll note that's not brought up in the OP is that, similar to how Sieg would scale for being able to use the greater grail as he's the custodian or whatever, which is just really pathway to the root, Angra's last key should likely also scale, for just being the greater grail

wow you're right silly me how could i forget haha

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Finally, I was waiting this, can't participate but watching with illusory popcorns.

 

[PsychoWarper]

So it finally happened, personally I agree with it although I doubt everyone will lol, should be a fun watch.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I of course agree with all of this

 

[Planck69]

Everything here seems fine.

 

[John985]

Sieg really is the surprising part of this CRT....

Also agree.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Sieg really is the surprising part of this CRT....

Also agree.

Right? I expected various things, but Sieg surely wasn't one of them.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have some issues with this, but currently I do not have time go into detail about it.

Edit: I'll be able to voice my issues in 10 hours. (4:30 in the afternoon Chicago time precisely)

 

[Hasty12345]

Saber doesn't scale?? I disagree

I'm neutral for now, waiting for counter arguments.

 

[Regidian]

Shiki don't have all the power of nasuverse because of her comparaison with the grating whish, but because she is litteraly the Root

"It
reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as
well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of
are allowed me." Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - Page 227

Her being compared to an omnipotent granting whishing being is just a secondary effect of her being a part of the Root.

Except if you want to tell that they can possibly wish to add these powers but then it should be just rated as possibly like saber shiki and explain that it's because they could wish to have acces to these powers.


But well agree with the rest

 

[Lormac_CC]

Following

 

[Overlord775]

I agree with the scalings, though what about the True Magics ?

like, in Apocrypha most of the Greater Grail's power was needed to use the Heaven's Feel on a global scale, so should they scale to 1-A potency too ?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I agree with the scalings, though what about the True Magics?

I'm going to get into the nitty gritty if this later

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I agree with the scalings, though what about the True Magics ?

like, in Apocrypha most of the Greater Grail's power was needed to use the Heaven's Feel on a global scale, so should they scale to 1-A potency too ?

Explained later in Mahoya, but not all True Magics have power directly related to the Root nor are they all-powerful in comparison to the normal magecrafts.

Shiki don't have all the power of nasuverse because of her comparaison with the grating whish, but because she is litteraly the Root

The Greater Grail is literally the pathway to the Root tho, so the principle is basically the same.

 

[Overlord775]

Explained later in Mahoya, but not all True Magics have power directly related to the Root nor are they all-powerful in comparison to the normal magecrafts.

so only Heaven's Feel would scale ?

 

[Regidian]

The Greater Grail is literally the pathway to the Root tho, so the principle is basically the same.

Have a big difference between being a pathways and being the root directly even more when the only thing the greater grail can do is being able to grant wish compared to what do void.

For the principe it's why i talk about the possibly since they could try to whish to have these power but since the greater grail was alredy tell to need a big amount of mana and have some limitations

 

[PsychoWarper]

Maybe the Greater Grail should “just” have 1-A Reality Warping without the whole “Every power in Nasuverse”?

 

[Bernkastelll]

I agree

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Explained later in Mahoya, but not all True Magics have power directly related to the Root nor are they all-powerful in comparison to the normal magecrafts.

This is literally contradicted in KNK. The very source used to make the Root 1-A

I'll elaborate more on this later.

And I don't think we should cherry pick stuff because it's convenient

What statements in mayoha even suggest this?

Edit: the way you phrased it suggest there is some true magic that are. So which ones are?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Have a big difference between being a pathways and being the root directly even more when the only thing the greater grail can do is being able to grant wish compared to what do void.

For the principe it's why i talk about the possibly since they could try to whish to have these power but since the greater grail was alredy tell to need a big amount of mana and have some limitations

The greater grail is able to grant any wish precisely because of this. It is the pathway to the root, and thats how the wishes are done, thats why it's considered the omnipotent wish granter, because it is actually able to do anything due to using the connection to the root to do so

This is literally contradicted in KNK. The very source used to make the Root 1-A

I'll elaborate more on this later.

And I don't think we should cherry pick stuff because it's convenient

What statements in mayoha even suggest this?

Edit: the way you phrased it suggest there is some true magic that are. So which ones are?

As for this, no, this is not contradicted in KnK, the only way you can even think this is contradicted in KnK is with a very specific interpretation of one line, that doesn't even imply scaling.

Since I already know what you're going to bring up, let me post something that shows that not everything that's "near true magic" is implied to be related to it in a scaling fashion

Although generally speaking “there are five True Magics”, this number does not reflect “effects that rival True Magics”. There are several examples in the story. Many Mystic Codes and creatures that exist in the world are also “shaped through True Magic”. Finally, there are those without definite shapes, but only exist “in motion”. A representative example of this last category is Assassin Kojiro Sasaki’s secret sword technique “Tsubame Gaeshi”. It is an ultimate technique which consists of the blade absolutely, simultaneously tracing separate paths and severing the target. In thaumaturgy, this is called “Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon – Kischua Zelretch”, in other words, a limited application of the Second Magic “Operation of Parallel Worlds”. In addition, reality marbles, the sorcery that overwrites reality with the caster’s internal landscape, is also thought to be a skill that approaches the miracle of True Magic. Although temporary, there are not too many magi who are able to execute this World-altering grand sorcery.

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal. After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre.

•Caster’s Sorcery (limited to Ryudo Temple) In the ancient era, sorcery is synonymous to True Magic, thus magi are Magicians. The true identity of the Caster in the Fifth War is Medea. She is one of these sorceresses that lived in the Age of Gods. Therefore, the sorceries which she executes have powers that approach the realm of True Magic. No matter how large-scale the sorcery is, she can use ‘High Speed Divine Language” to cast it in one step. Her skills even transcend the strongest magi of the current era, exceeding the Magicians. Although Medea is not a Magician, no one can argue that she is “a magus that is infinitely close to the Magicians”.

•Phantasmal Species (Phantasmal Beasts of the Millennium-Rank, and Divine Beasts) The creatures told in the myths and legends around the world. Dragons, Fairies, and Ghosts etc. are such examples. The Pegasus mounted by Rider is a member of the Phantasmal Species. Phantasmal Species embody mysteries simply by existing, thus they transcend normal sorceries. Those Phantasmal Species that have survived for millennia are thought to be equal to True Magic, even observing one can be said to be a miracle.

•The Spatial Transportation of Servants Spatial Transportation is a sorcery in the realm of True Magic. Not used normally, but Masters can use command spells to realise it to a limited extend. This is called Forced Summoning. Although the distance may be quite far, after the command is issued, the Servant will traverse great distances and arrive at the side of the Master in haste.

•Zelretch’s Treasure Chest The heirloom of the Tohsaka House, and now it is a mystery chest that Rin favours. It was made by Zelretch. It looks like a “genuine treasure chest” from the outside, but it is really a “magical chest” that was made by applying the Second Magic. By bending space, most items can be fit into it. Possibly due to the effect of the Second Magic, the rate of temporal passage inside the chest is different from that of the outside. One hour inside equals to one day outside.

Now, going off your interpretation, that means the true magics should scale to all these, and/ or these should scale to them, which just, isn't the case, at all. Nearing true magic does not mean in power. Nearing true magic means in terms of what the effect is, the effects are something that are so weird, and absurdly difficult to replicate (and in some cases almost are the effects of true magic), that they're nearing true magic just because of that. What a true magic is, in the simplest sense, is the 5 things humanity is not at all able to replicate with science.

What magecraft is, is the ability to bring about what is possible through science with supernatural means. This is the differentiating factor between the two. True Magic is impossible to bring about except with magic, and the effects that near it are similar.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This is literally contradicted in KNK. The very source used to make the Root 1-

No, the Root uses stuff from KnK all the way to FGO. This has nothing to do with KnK being a unreliable source, but it is one of Nasu's first works.

Stuff being explained in more detail or contradicted by latter works is a given, and we almost always take those latter statements against the earlier ones. The Root's 1-A statements just so happen to not only be uncontradicted, but also doubled down upon other works.

This isn't cherrypicking, ignoring other works in favor of a 25 year old novel is cherrypicking.

Either way i think some uses of the Third Magic would also scale to this, iirc Apocrypha has something about that, but no one would really scale so it doesn't matter.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That wasn't my only evidence

KNK has a theme that reoccurs again in another work.

Edit: I been preping for this day.

 

[Regidian]

Either way i think some uses of the Third Magic would also scale to this, iirc Apocrypha has something about that, but no one would really scale so it doesn't matter.

True Heroic spirit want a word with you

The greater grail is able to grant any wish precisely because of this. It is the pathway to the root, and thats how the wishes are done, thats why it's considered the omnipotent wish granter, because it is actually able to do anything due to using the connection to the root to do so.

It consider as an omnipotent whish granter because it have connection of root and can grant wish and because if his legend,

he actually can't do any other that granting wish, litteraly why sieg need to grant wish to himself so giving all the power of the nasuverse when he litteraly and tell to just being able grant wish is not good, you can give him reality warping 1-A because it's what he do but he don't have any other ability


And the wish need a big amount of energy for each wish (approximately to the level of the wish)

To open a way to the swirl of the Akasha, the Grail needs to sacrifice all seven Servants to start up the Great Grail, but six Servants are enough if the wish is within the limits of the world.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean 1-A Reality Warping is pretty nice either way...

 

[Paul_Frank]

It consider as an omnipotent whish granter because it have connection of root and can grant wish and because if his legend,

he actually can't do any other that granting wish, litteraly why sieg need to grant wish to himself so giving all the power of the nasuverse when he litteraly and tell to just being able grant wish is not good, you can give him reality warping 1-A because it's what he do but he don't have any other ability


And the wish need a big amount of energy for each wish (approximately to the level of the wish)

To open a way to the swirl of the Akasha, the Grail needs to sacrifice all seven Servants to start up the Great Grail, but six Servants are enough if the wish is within the limits of the world.

This doesn't change anything. It can grant any wish, meaning, via its effects, it can realize any outcome. The mooncell, which is inferior in this regard, as in, it doesn't use the root for its wishes, specifies that this is true, that it can do anything anyone can think of.

The Grail needing power to open up a pathway, or the wishes needing to be granted in the form of wishes does not change the fact of the matter. That being that the wishes are done specifically using the power of Akasha. They thus have the ability to grant any wish, aka they can realize any outcome, and use any ability. The same way that Manaka would be able to do this if she didn't, like, suck so bad none of her changes lasted.

In essence, the actual reason why Void has the "all powers in Nasu" thing isn't because of her statement of being able to do anything, that's just corroborating evidence. The reason is because she uses the power of the source of all things, where everything occurs, to do this stuff, and thus would have access to it all as it stems from the root, and happens there. The Grail has statements of being able to do anything, uses the power of the source of all things, where everything occurs at once, and all of the powers stem from and happen. The only difference in this regard is that the Grail has to do it specifically in the form of wishes, making it more limited in what it does (however that's something that goes in a weakness section, we don't just ignore the fact it can do this), and the fact that it's not like, an avatar or embodiment of the root like Shiki

 

[Regidian]

This doesn't change anything. It can grant any wish, meaning, via its effects, it can realize any outcome. The mooncell, which is inferior in this regard, as in, it doesn't use the root for its wishes, specifies that this is true, that it can do anything anyone can think of.

Where the moon cell tell that when the moon cell literally use his parrallele universe stored to do the wish?(in the meaning that he have a parrallele universe stored for any possible wish).

And what you tell is basically reality warping, so thing of having all the power of nasuverse is big no when he don't have them, he give just wish, they don't use any ability, show me one time when the wish was something other than it changing the world to applicate the wish.

Manaka have alredy a better thing the inly problem being that she don't have enough mana and that the quantum time lock can reverse what she do

And for Void the statement that made have this is litteraly the statement when she tell that she can do everything that any Mage want (controlling the Root) + what does the Root by himself and being the Root itself. Not like i'm the one who made the thread and give all the argument for it....

Contrary to that, the greater grail is just a wishing machine that can grant wish by altering the world to accept the wish in. So yeah it's just reality warping he don't have acces to any other ability that giving wish(which is a thing that the Root can do) and even the ability he can give except to altering the world for now are nowhere the level of the Root.

Really want you to give me the scan where he tell that the greater grail can do anything other can giving wish.

 

[Regidian]

I mean it's why i'm okay with 1-A reality warping, since he wrap the world to integrating the wish by using the power of Root, but he don't have the power of the root for himself

 

[Nero]

Yes finally the Part 2 is out. Anyways I'll be neutral for now

 

[Regidian]

Anyways Black Iri should scale to what have Angra since she is this and even have the Connection to the Root skill

She was formed through Angra Mainyu possessing the remnants of Irisviel von Einzbern's personality in the Greater Grail. Manifested in the Grand Orders, she takes on the persona of Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern, but can rather be said to be the remnants of the Greater Grail tainted by All the World's Evils

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I don't think we have that as an profile yet.

 

[Tam0n3n]

following and agree so far

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I am forming my thesis

Edit: I have all the scans i need. I just need to now put it into words.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Unification language, Tower of Babel, Gilgamesh, and The Moon Cell.​

Unification language as we like to call it is 1-A due to this quote.

“If the medium of words is used, yes. But the man is different. He speaks not truly to men and beast, but to the soul in them that still contains that last connection to something higher. There is always a part of us that is culled from that primeval spiral of origin, and when the high speech speaks to the soul, our fallen selves are compelled to obey. To deny it is to ontologically deny the very structure of reality, and thus impossible. An absolute language, that starts from statement and then proceeds to become truth. It is the ultimate form of hypnotism. He accesses the Akashic Record unconsciously, and through the high speech, taps into it to channel his will. It’s how he draws forth the memory, not from your mind, but from the Record of things past that reality still contains. Truly a spell worth the / RECORDS IN OBLIVION - VI • 81 Academia Seal that’s been granted to him.”

However before this passage we have some important context. This context gives us a timeline.

“No one truly knows what Godword’s real name is, and even those who knew him in his Collegium are limited. Few ever see him in person. But his face and magic are known to all who claim allegiance to the traditions of the London Ordo Magi. You see, Godword’s Art is fairly obvious to derive from his title: he speaks the high speech, the mythic Adamic language. The words still hold power over reality, and they tap a consciousness embedded in every human being, rendering it comprehensible by anyone. There is no word he does not know, no dialect he is not privy to. Though he hears himself as only speaking one single language, anyone who hears him hear it how their paradigm manipulates them to. Even you must know the story of the Tower of Babel, Kokutō.” “Yeah, the same thing that Pieter Brueghel painted, right? A tall, spiral tower almost reaching heaven, where they planned to build a temple on top so that God could talk to them easier. But God saw that as hubris and struck down the tower, and so men could never repeat the same thing, he created the confusion of tongues which scattered people all over the Earth.” “Indeed. The old Babel story from the Bible. Other extant sources point to similar stories, and there is always what they call the ‘confusion of tongues.’ God made to scatter humanity, but not through the complex physicality of skin or race, but through simple language. After all, the largest difference you notice between Japanese and foreigners isn’t the color of the hair or the eyes, but simply the constructions of our grammar and words, correct? It forms a continual barrier of understanding. The reasoning of God goes that because of this barrier, mankind will never again build such a towering edifice. But over time, mankind grew, and prospered, and 80 • KINOKO NASU globalized, and eventually, the barrier of language became somewhat lax.

​

---

​

How does this concern Giglamesh?​

The "Tower of Babel" is important as it helps paint us a timeline. The Tower of Babel was a defining moment in human history (Specifically civilization) in the Nasuverse. Is the reason why there is a language barrier and other countries.

However, we don't need to know when the incident of the "Tower of Babel" happened. Instead we need to know what happened before it!

Human Civilizations first cusp of a very important transition was Gilgamesh's Babylon. Him as the king. This was specifically stated in Gilgameshs SG in CCC. Denying that the tower of Babel was not an important cusp of a transition in nasuverse is.... well.. ridiculous. To say the incident of "The Tower of Babel" is the first cusp of an important transition in human history in Nasuverse is also... ridiculous..

Gilgamesh's Reign as king over Babylon is also stated to be the dawn of Civilization in CCC. This is also apart of Gilgamesh's SG. It also goes a step further and says "he was the man that once obtained the whole world." implying he united the whole world.

To finish this section off; His story coincides with the Flood and Noah's Arc which occurs before Babel.

---

Why is this important?​

We have to look closer at what the Unified Language WAS.

"Godword is a constant reminder of this. Before the confusion of tongues, there was but one, formless, high speech, through which everyone understood all, and when men spoke to the anima mundi and its creatures as surely as they did each other. Then God gave us the debased tongues, stealing from us the promise of wisdom he had once so readily granted. Godword is the only known one able to reproduce this universal language, and work his Art through the high speech. He communicates to all men, a channel through which that demiurgic force, that ultimate origin passes through.

“Mostly. The universal language is not as universal as it once was"

In short; It was a Universal Language that everyone had access too before the incident known as "The Tower of Babel."

---

Okay so; why mention this now?​

Because the Universal Language (Unification Language) has something very important related to this CRT.

“If the medium of words is used, yes. But the man is different. He speaks not truly to men and beast, but to the soul in them that still contains that last connection to something higher. There is always a part of us that is culled from that primeval spiral of origin, and when the high speech speaks to the soul, our fallen selves are compelled to obey. To deny it is to ontologically deny the very structure of reality, and thus impossible. An absolute language, that starts from statement and then proceeds to become truth. It is the ultimate form of hypnotism. He accesses the Akashic Record unconsciously, and through the high speech, taps into it to channel his will. It’s how he draws forth the memory, not from your mind, but from the Record of things past that reality still contains. Truly a spell worth the / RECORDS IN OBLIVION - VI • 81 Academia Seal that’s been granted to him.”

The bolded part is important to note. This is to say that in Gilgamesh's time period up until the Tower of Babel. Knowledge on how to access the Akashic record and tap into it to draw from was as common as a toddler learning to speak in the modern era.


My point here: Gilgamesh obviously happened before the Tower of Babel. Thus, knowledge of how to access the Akashic records should be common in this era as this method was the primary way of communication to each other.

---

How does this relate to the Moon Cell?​

"To put it simply Moon Cell is, “The eye that observes the Earth.”
Moon Cell is a computational device that accurately simulates all of Earth and its life forms, and can even accurately predict the future.
Moon Cell is a database of humanity. A colossal memory device that has recorded mankind’s ecology and history, and even the thoughts and souls of [all] people."


"The Moon Cell is, in essence, “an eye that observes the Earth.”
A processor with a massive memory that has recorded the habit, ideas, and even the souls of humanity, it acts as a database of human history and faithfully simulates all life on Earth."

Links to the quotes above are here.

The point to be made here is that the Moon Cell is an observation device that observes all of humanity and all of its history. it reads all of mankinds soul, and mind. It stores all that information and even computes it to make possibilities out of it. The Moon Cell even has records of someone as old as Gilgamesh, and it was even around during the time of the White Titan.

This is to say that the Moon Cell should have knowledge of the Unified Language which accesses the root. This is to say that the Moon Cell should know how to Access the root.

---

But wait shouldn't that be an Outlier? There is no way the Moon Cell can do that... YES IT CAN. This has a supporting feat within CCC itself.​

First we need to understand what "The Origin" is.

“A writer once said that ‘a designer knows he has achieved perfection not when he has nothing left to add, but when he has nothing left to take away.’ That’s what I was trying to do when I was making dolls, Kokutō. I tried to make that perfect human, to ascend that indescribable ‘ ’. The man I told you about tried the same thing, except he used the soul instead of the flesh. He lived to solve that problem with the unobservable cat in the box, to see beyond the definite truth of the box and see the unseen soul of the ‘ ’ inside. It almost resembles that ‘collective unconscious’ bullshit by that psychiatrist a long time ago. He thought he could reach the origin if he just followed the breadcrumbs, the little clues left for us here. We both tried to reach that origin, the infinite stream that traces out the source of all humanity. People now are so divided amongst races, and skills, and capabilities, and inheritances, that it’s impossible to count the plurality of it all. So much has been added, and so much to take away, so much that we can’t reach the origin of all these skills and ancestry that we like to label causality, and other people like to call fate. It’s become almost like a formula you can manipulate; add this ability, add that trait, and the wonders of deterministic outcomes gives you a life from the genesis of the genetic blueprint that is so predictable to that creature of Laplace that it becomes droll, and if you want to call it fate, then so be it. We’ve made too much of ourselves in the never ending human imperative for omnipotence. The four bases that comprise the helix structure that composes all of humanity are so simple, yet so complex as to comprise a spiral, cumulatively accumulating unto immeasurability until we all fall into a paradox of our own creation, a paradox that can’t be observed. That’s why humans and mages alike will never ascend to the origin they aspire to—so I resolved to make one myself. But it was useless. In the efforts I poured blood, sweat, and tears over, I couldn’t make the Platonic human, only a perfect me.” She pauses for a handful of seconds, allowing herself to breath. I perceived her rambling to be one long breath, a speech that sounded like she said it without knowledge of punctuation marks. The color flushes back to her face, due to the medicine no doubt, and yet the eyes which stare into nothingness retain their dim quality. She adds a final note. “To think that bastard is still trying it, even now. I know he was cast out / SPIRAL PARADOX - I • 89 by his mentor for daring to find the origin of a person. He is one stubborn son of a bitch to still be hopeful. One thing I hope, Kokutō, is that you never encounter that man in the photo. If that ever happens, run away. Fast.”

“In your last moments, you have earned this knowledge, so listen well. All things have an impetus that drives and shapes their very existence. A primal impulse contained and cycled in the / CHAPTER 17 • 209 Akashic Record we mages call an ‘origin.’ “Know this: you were never capable of anything. For your origin was ‘worthlessness"

“Kokutō, do you know a thing about what they call the ‘origin?’ Your master is a mage herself, isn’t she? Tōko Aozaki? You must have heard of it at some point. It’s a soul’s true nature, the grand beginning. What one should be. The origin of my soul was awakened by Sōren Alaya, that demon that masqueraded as a plain human. I don’t think Miss Tōko ever told me about this origin, or the awakening of the soul."

“Can you explain to me what this ‘origin,’ actually is? Shirazumi said it was like some kind of instinct that overrides your own will, or something like that.” “Partly right, but not the whole picture,” she says, transferring her cigarette to her left hand so she can gesticulate with her customary right. “If you think living for twenty years is enough for you to assert that you are yourself, and that you are in control of your body, think again. Your will is as malleable as any aspect of reality the Art can manipulate. Character rules your mind, and it is the flesh that expresses that outwardly. New Age solipsism turned out to be truer than anyone thought, I suppose.” She puts her free hand on her chin, before asking me a strange question. “Do you believe in past lives, Kokutō?” “I don’t have a say either way, really. I’m not affirming it, but I’m not categorically denying it either.” “Spoken like a true politician, I swear. Cyclicality and repetition. You see it everywhere, from occult lore to scientific theories. Spirits, souls, and life. Outside of all these concepts, there is the origin, reincarnated into something else, eternally. And from that chaos is born a certain order. Certainly, it is said that mages also make use of this manifestation of age-old power, making all of us lean towards some aspect of personality. A purifying cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. Follow the origin to hundreds of spiraling lives lived, until you reach the primordial origin of the soul. “The Collegium teaches us that there is a place and time where existence first came to be. But in eternal paradox, there is no life there. Only the impetus for creation. An overriding direction, an entropic tendency to chaos that drives all of reality. Such shards of creation obtain a purpose, a task, placing themselves into things part of the Pattern of reality that matches its symbology. An animal perhaps. Or a plant. Sometimes, or eventually, it may be a man, finding his soul. Sometimes, these purposes can feel like an imperative. “This chaotic impulse is what mages call the origin. Is it instinct? The Greek ‘daemon?’ Ancestral recall? Moments of genius? The voice of God or the devil? Ask five mages, you will get ten different answers. But whatever it is, it is burned into your soul, and it would be folly to turn away from it.” She smiles then, as if what she had just been saying had not been in any way peculiar. Yet I understood her well enough, surprisingly. “For the vast majority of people, though, they are never aware of it. It is just there, close but never near enough to be important. It differs for each person. Shiki, 188 • KINOKO NASU whose origin is emptiness, is compelled quite strongly. But Azaka, whose origin is the taboo, is still quite normal. But to those awakened to it, well— it’s a whole different ball game.”

“The spell to awaken the origin cannot be woven with the mage alone. It is the one to be awakened who first feels the stirrings of his soul begin to call out to him."

"This girl then, was Shiki’s true nature, what mages had called the origin of a person. A thing of nothingness, of void, the primal nature of someone."

To summarize all that; in short the Origin of a person is the souls true nature. The Origin of a person is directly connected to the Root/Akashic records/the 1-A Thing. They get power through it.

---

Why is this important now my dude? This does not at all seem relevant. WRONG.​

Fate/Extra CCC has the Playable characters awaken the power of their Origin, their soul's true nature. They needed this power to be equal to BB.


This is Archer's quote from CCC

"Origin... ... The Root!? The shape that is the "Beginning" of the Heroic Spirit that not even we know... ... That can't be, that's-"

This is something the Moon Cell sealed away, and must be unsealed.

"Yes. You must enter your Servant’s virtual mind/body, access the Heroic Spirit core directly, the Heroic Spirit’s root that the Mooncell has sealed away —"

They learned to do this by studying the Ten Crowns ability of BB

"As a result of analyzing “Ten Crowns,” we too have acquired rights to access “Power of Origin” from the Mooncell."

Remember the Gilgamesh thing earlier? Where I suggested that Gilgamesh's reign as King must of happened before the incident of "The Tower of Babel?" Thus, all the inhabitants of that era must of had the Unified Universal Language and therefore know how to draw forth from the Root.

The Ten's Crown is also the power before Human Civilization. It is the beginning of Human Civilization.

This is also stated to be the Origin that all humans have in them. This is also stated in KnK novel not just CCC

As for the Tamammo route. She has this to say after awakening her Origin, or her Soul's true nature.

"No need to praise, good ears aren't you? First of all, I see the future because you touched the Root."

This is what Saber Nero had to say about it. "Mu? Servant's power of Origin... Rani, that can't be..."

Point here: Moon Cell has root power lol

---

Regarding the whole "closer/comparable too sorcery"​

"id she need magic to go to a certain place, or was the magic created because she arrived there?

“The latter. I turned tail and ran right at the front of the door, so I don’t know what gramps’ true motive was.”

“The same circumstances as the First Magic, eh. Karma must have it coming for you. I heard the Second to Fourth were created to reach that place. It’s common for those to hate their own kind. Let’s hope it does not come down to you and the First consuming one another. But, a gate you say. So inheriting magic is similar to inheriting a path, huh. Then, Ymir’s entrance was here wasn’t it?”


“To a Europhile like you, sure. To me, it was something like the Gate of Akasha. You were after that from the start, weren’t you.”

Touko, like she were purging her remaining life, grunted and nodded feebly.

“….I couldn’t stand having to wait generations for something I so badly wanted and could get, and that’s why I went separate ways with grandfather. My wish for vengeance on the Aozakis couldn’t come before that. But it’s all over anyway. I have nothing else to say. I have one final request. I would like to hear your thoughts on touching the Root.”"

This quote from the Mahou Tsukai no Yoru visual novel proves that the difference is not many Uncountable infinities but they get so close they could almost tangibly touch it so they were within the realm of the Root/Akasha. They were feet's, or meters away. Not many uncountably infinities like everyone appears to be assuming. if not 1-A this could at potentially be low 1-A, or High 1-B.

---

My grand summary of this whole thing​

living Gilgamesh era people up until the Tower of Babel should have 1-A Hax and resistance

The Moon Cell should obviously have knowledge on what the Root is and how to access it. Which then Scales to the obvious others such as the playables (With the MMC as the Mooncell locks their origin/seals their origin), Mooncell, BB, etc

The Gods that existed in the Era before the tower of Babel should obviously have 1-A Hax and resistance as well. The best way to find what Gods qualify is White Titan attack on Earth.

 

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with everything what TheUnshakableOne just said

 

[Hasty12345]

Unshackables post makes more sense to me than the OP

 

[CrystalValley]

i thought unified language was still not fully accepted as 1-a yet, as Kurogiri is not rated as 1-a via hax.

also i kinda just observe here but shouldn't Arcueid also have 1-a hax due to being stated to be above "Ryougi Shiki" with the quotations, meaning void shiki? that and she's scale with the moon cell.

and i feel like Aoko should have 1-a time manipulation due to connecting to the root with the fifth magic. it shouldnt scale to AP at all though.

anyways, i agree with what i've read from Unshackable so far

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

haha what the ****

 

[Paul_Frank]

Thus, knowledge of how to access the Akashic records should be common in this era as this method was the primary way of communication to each other.

No, the quote about Kurogiri kinda like, specifically says it's unconsciously, as in, he doesn't know how to just access the root. So even other unified language speakers wouldn't.

This is to say that the Moon Cell should have knowledge of the Unified Language which accesses the root. This is to say that the Moon Cell should know how to Access the root.

It would, if this was not beyond its capabilities, and as you tried to claim its not an outlier, I'll counter that below

To summarize all that; in short the Origin of a person is the souls true nature. The Origin of a person is directly connected to the Root/Akashic records/the 1-A Thing. They get power through it

Okay okay hold up here, uhh, no. Firstly, the first few bolded things are talking about the spiral of the origin, aka Akasha as is clear through context, not sure why you highlighted them. Next, nothing you posted even implies that the origins are still directly powered by Akasha, or connected to it. What KnK has actually told us is that the origin is simply the basis for the creation of someone or something, which comes from Akasha, and is the only part that carries on after the person returns to the root and is erased. This does not at all mean that the origin or everything that manipulates it is 1-A. The absolute most you can argue is 1-A resistances for origins, but even that is doubtful, as it's more likely that the root specifically doesn't target them.

With you having provided no actual proof that the origin is 1-A inherently, the rest of the post falls apart, as it relies on this assumption, but I'll carry on.

"As a result of analyzing “Ten Crowns,” we too have acquired rights to access “Power of Origin” from the Mooncell.

You know, now that fgo is a thing, the mostly likely case is that this is the spirit origin, which is probably different, and not their overall true conceptual origin as being able to manipulate that, from just interacting with the servant and not even the true self in the throne is a bit ehhh, but that's neither there nor there.

You may try to counter this by saying "She says it's the origin that all humans have" however this actually disproves it being the origin talked about in KnK, as there is not an origin all humans have, as all things have their own origins, which are not the same as eachother. Do you know what this quote is actually talking about? 10 Crowns. She is saying 10 Crowns is the origin of the human genome, since, you know, Earth Mother Goddess controls life and all that

Remember the Gilgamesh thing earlier? Where I suggested that Gilgamesh's reign as King must of happened before the incident of "The Tower of Babel?" Thus, all the inhabitants of that era must of had the Unified Universal Language and therefore know how to draw forth from the Root.

Okay now here's where things get dicey. Yes, logically speaking, Gil should have the Unified language, however, the last time it was even mentioned was for the Dust of Osiris, and she didn't even have it work the same way, so it is very clear that Nasu had, by that point, forgotten how it worked, and you honestly expect that by now he even remembers who should have it logically? If Gil and co did have it, Babylonia would have turned out a lot differently, the second anyone talks to Chaldea, boom mindhax, boom powers turned off, etc etc etc.

This quote from the Mahou Tsukai no Yoru visual novel proves that the difference is not many Uncountable infinities but they get so close they could almost tangibly touch it so they were within the realm of the Root/Akasha. They were feet's, or meters away. Not many uncountably infinities like everyone appears to be assuming. if not 1-A this could at potentially be low 1-A, or High 1-B.

This quote proves literally less than nothing for any sort of scaling. It's just talking about how the magics came about, and then explaining that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th were made to try to reach the root, unlike the 1st and 5th