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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Regidian said:
Soul Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation: Just like any other characters in the Nasuverse, a Servant's body and mind protect their souls from harm, and furthermore, they can take hits to their Spirit Origins, the CPU of the soul.

Not only do souls contain the concepts and information of a being, they also have their mind and memories within[3], which, alongside the body, protect the soul and stop it from being reached.[4]
Click to expand...
You mentioned already this applies to servants only and in your own words, Tiamat isn’t a servant, she is a Beast in the Mobile to say the least.
 
Can't you read like the first phrase pls? "Like any other character in Nasuverse".


Where i tell it apply only to servant. Any being in nasuverse have a spirit origin, otherwise why the damn we would talk about the spirit origin collapse of tiamat?????


Like the feat is not even on a servant but shirou and kiara when she was a beast.
 
Regidian said:
Can't you read like the first phrase pls? "Like any other character in Nasuverse".


Where i tell it apply only to servant. Any being in nasuverse have a spirit origin, otherwise why the damn we would talk about the spirit origin collapse of tiamat?????


Like the feat is not even on a servant but shirou.
Click to expand...
Oh, my mistake.

However, I think I am more confused about the fact on concept and information being contained in the soul as where was this stated?
 
John985 said:


FGr3xpMWQAQZKpz.png

Nebuchadnezzar II

1639609496674.png
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Finally! Nebuchadnezzar II
yes-sir-yes.gif

Adult Nemo looks so clean holy shit
jojo-joestar.gif


Now watch as the fandom burned further due of Adult Tiamat
images
 
Regidian said:
It's already accepted as being equivalent like we already tell many time. Conceptual collapse give high godly too.

Spirit origin are accepted as being the concept of a being/soul and containing soul and infos.
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Spirit Origin is not a concept of being but concept of the astral world, whereas the concept of being is Origin.
 
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Regidian said:
The spirit origin is regenerated, why you talk about summoning? It's like litteraly she materialise herself she not register in throne of heroes etc to materialise hersekf she need a spirit origin and so she need to regen it. She not a data recorded nor part of the system of servant bruh
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End of the post.

Regidian said:
I mean what it tell two time i tell you, spirit origin is accepted as cointaining the concept of the being.
Click to expand...
I will ask for the third time - What even is the concept of the being? Repeatition of a term without definition doesn't help.

Regidian said:
Litteraly show with solomon death, and it's explain in how chaldea is able to store the servant saint graph by doing like throne of heroes.
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Quote one line. Up to now your only objections have been one liners saying ''you are wrong'' without actually providing something in this point. And what Chaldea does isn't in NO WAY SHAPE OF FORM similar to Throne of Heroes - you really gonna compare a timeless, outside of the World and therefore Human capacity of cognition with what is essentially a magical hard drive?

Regidian said:
Chaldea Security Organization is able to store the Saint Graph data of Servants to allow for resummoning after defeat. Rather than directly returning to the Throne of Heroes, they are able to summon the same Servant with their memories intact. Within the original Chaldea base, this data was kept in Saint Graph Storage.
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You just said yourself that the thing store was data... Exactly what I said.

•Heroic Spirit summoning
Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

- AS RECORDS -

Already searched for too many citations, and don't remember who translated Tsukihime Remake, but Arcueid categorically defines the knowledge she acquires from her awakening/contact with sphere of human activity =/= the knowledge of the experience as the being in the actor role.

Regidian said:
Your text litteraly talk about how is spirit origin is still not destroyed "halting the Spirit Origin’s disintegration by brute force" so why you even try to use it as argument ??
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The point is - even if it was destroyed, that SG is of THAT iteration of Gilgamesh. That exists as a Invocated/Evocated being anchored by Tine.

Regidian said:
Quote pls.
Her profile tell not even the same thing. It was never ever mentionned in none part that this was not her original self. The whole singu contradict that, her description tell she was always mean to be a Beast that humanity need to overcome. Bruh what the people and their thinking that it exist multiple Tiamat one even her competence tell the contrary. All beast are not thing "derived" from humanity. their are being that need to be overcome by humanity. By hersekf tiamat had nothing really to do with humanity. She in first became a beast because her children the god rejected and sealed her. It just continued with humanity because their are her children too.
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I seriously think you need to reread the entire story with more attention, because it gets to a point I'll have to quote the entirety of the VN, novels and the game...
I don't want to sound rude, but your grammar would suggest you do have some deficiency in comprehension. Still waiting for your quote of the ''fact'' above.

To start - BEAST is a class-container by definition. A container for an Evil of Humanity. Just like Saber, Lancer or any other class-container. It "defines" the vessel/shape/form the creature uses.
-- Tiamat COULD NOT BY DEFINITION become a Beast before Humanity itself existed. Her mythology is merely that. Cath Palug isn't a Beast in F/GO - yet still bears the capacity to become one. Same way with Angra Mainyuu in Fuyuki.

In her very profile she's described as bearing no personality. The thing there extant merely reacts by instinct.

Q: In HF, Angra Mainyu is mentioned as All Evils of Humanity, is it the same as that Evil of Humanity Gilgamesh mention in UBW? If he is born, will a Grand Servant be summoned?

Nasu: Angra Mainyu who is fully enfleshed with the Fuyuki Grail is an Evil of Humanity. Angra's Evil of Humanity is Retribution (報復?). If his enflashed body fuses with Sakura, he would have become a Beast. At that time, half of the world would be polluted and a Grand will appear.
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Now, wall of text incoming because what you said is literally non-sense.
Gilgamesh: Now, Merlin truly did say Evil of Humanity?
Mashu: Yes he did. He said the King of Magic awoke one of the seven evils of humanity. Excuse me, King Gilgamesh, but what are the evils of humanity?
Gilgamesh: What, you have yet to know? I thought you already found the answer in your quest. The evils of humanity are blights of humanity, they refer to the many disasters that would destroy humanity. They become stronger the more humanity develops, like a cancer eating its society from the inside. It’s backwater resting in human history, to be frank.
Da Vinci: Do you mean something looking for vengeance like the Gorgon? Something that will destroy humanity with enmity?
Gilgamesh: It’s the opposite, o fair creature. The evils of humanity are not the evils that will destroy humanity. They are the evils that humanity will destroy.
Mashu: The evils that humanity will destroy?
Gilgamesh: Yes, hm. You should ask the explanation for that from the one appropriate for it. For now, just remember that they are disasters that threaten human history: the self-extinction mechanisms and safety devices of humanity that were the basis for the heroic spirit summoning. The seven evils of humanities. They too manifest as spiritual foundations, as seven disasters born by the beastliness of humanity. In other words, Class Beast. What the King of Magic awoke was such a beast.
Ishtar: Hold on. The primordial sea should be Mother. Isn’t this anomaly being caused by the goddess Tiamat?
Gilgamesh: Fool. I said Tiamat is the Beast. The foe we face is a legitimate and true god of primordial earth.
Click to expand...

@ Gilgamesh I see. So Merlin has gone on ahead, then.
Without coming to know defeat in the waking realm, he has been crushed within the depths of the dreaming.
Truly an end befitting of him.
Still, the Evils of Humanity (人類悪, Jinrui-Aku?) -- Merlin did indeed speak of such, you say?

@ Mashu Yes. He said that the King of Thaumaturgy (魔術王, Majutsu-Ō?) has to this land called to awakening one among the Seven Evils of Humanity (七つの人類悪, Nanatsu no Jinrui-Aku?).
... er, Lord Gilgamesh.
What precisely are the Evils of Humanity?
What are the Seven?

@ Gilgamesh What, you're unfamiliar with them?
I would've thought that you'd already come across the answer to that in your investigations.
The Evils of Humanity are, as the name implies, the Stigmata of Humanity (人類の汚点, Jinrui no Oten?) -- the various Calamities (災害, saigai?) positioned to enact the annihilation of Humanity.
They accumulate strength in proportion to the advancement of humans, and are in essence as a cancer that consumes society from within.
To rephrase, they are as a stagnation (淀, yodo?) within the current of the History of Humanity (人類史, Jinrui-Shi?).

@ da Vinci Avengers (復讐者, fukushūsha?) in the cast of Gorgon, you mean?
That is to say, existences that out of enmity seek the destruction of Humanity?

@ Gilgamesh It is the reverse, O fair one.
The Evils of Humanity are not the Evils by which Humanity comes to destruction.
Rather, they are the Evils that Humanity shall come to destroy.

@ Mashu The Evils that ... Humanity shall come to destroy?

@ Gilgamesh Indeed. ... hm.
It would be best if the explanation thereon is left to someone more appropriate.
For now, commit this to memory, for such are the Calamities that threaten the History of Humanity.
They are the archetype upon which the Summoning of the Heroic Spirits (英霊召喚, Eirei Shōkan?) is founded -- at once a fail-safe (安全装置, anzen sōchi?) and a system by which the Apoptosis of Humanity is enacted (人類の自滅機構, Jinrui no Jimetsu Kikō?, lit. "System for the Apoptosis of Humanity).
The Seven Evils of Humanity. They too exist and manifest (顕現, Kengen?) as Saint Graphs (霊基, Reiki?, lit. "Spiritual Foundations").
They are the Seven Calamities born of the animalistic qualities inherent to humans (人間の獣性, ningen no jūsei?, lit. "the ******** Nature of Humanity") --
thus, Class Beast.
That which the King of Magecraft has awakened is such a creature.

@ Ishtar But, wait. Should not the Primordial Sea (原初の海, Gensho no Umi?) refer to Mother?
Should this aberration not be of the hand of the Matriarch of the Gods?
The acts of the Goddess Tiamat?

@ Gilgamesh Fool. I am telling you now that the Goddess Tiamat is one amongst the Beasts.
The opponent that we challenge now is authentically a Divine Corpus (神体, Shintai?, lit. "Divine Flesh") of the Primordial World (原始世界, Genshi Sekai?).

@ Mashu Class Beast ... The Seven Evils of Humanity ...
Is that the name of our Enemy?

@ Gilgamesh Indeed. That is the term for the Beasts of Calamity (災害の獣, Saigai no Kemono?, localized as "Beasts of Disaster") in collective.
Click to expand...

Tamamo talking about it.
But hear Us. Good and Evil; Lawfulness and Chaos; Great and Meager; Perpetrator and Victim. Such dichotomies as these are of no relevance to Us.
We exist as an Evil of Humanity that is merely extant, just so as the Divinities are merely extant as configurations of temporal circumstance and phenomena.
That which we desire to harvest are the fruits of Ideation alone. But be that they come of prayers for peace or the hatred accumulated of war, the thoughts of Men are equal in Heat.
In those eras where peace is valued, let that Men may prosper; that they are cultivated, such that we might harvest their faith.
In those eras where war is valued, let that Men be driven; that they are slaughtered, such that we might harvest their enmity.
Do you come now to comprehend? The benevolence and malice borne by a Divinity necessarily conforms with the will of Men, and with the conditions of an era. Therefore --
So too shall the one that you love change with the passage of time. Irrelevant of your devotions, she shall come one day to bare her fangs against Humanity.
Can your love for that Tail be unfaltering even so? Can it endure that a Monstrosity lurks everpresent within her shadow, beckoning uncertain Calamity?
Click to expand...

And just to be sure, again. Shirou and EMIYA aren't the same person - this idea needs to be understood. This is important because this is exactly what this is about. Even in FGO, Space Ishtar event - Ishtar Ashtart and Ashtart Origin thing that is long and this post is long enough.

And I don't wanna enter the Ties of En/dependent origination with Graphs/Chaldea FATE briefcase, but I would suggest you to search for it. And the ''Blue Particle'' in the fate games, it's Karl or Tamamo that talks about it if I remember correctly.
 
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You guys should stop debating about this and start discussing about whats going on in Arcade, this became so tiring to see a same arguments over and over
 
LehenDuo said:
I don't want to sound rude, but your grammar would suggest you do have some deficiency in comprehension.
Click to expand...
I'm not gonna lie, between the two I always find your way to write hardest to understand, I don't know what is but your posts always give me a headache trying to figure what you try to say. So I don't feel like you are the best person to say something like this to others.

That aside, I also think is the best if you three stop with whatever you all were trying to argument, you can continue in private or in the crt of Tiamat if is related with it.
 
It's hard when the conversation was going towards ''Gaia's Reality Marble''-level of dissociation with what is said in the works.
Expectro2000xxx said:
I'm not gonna lie, between the two I always find your way to write hardest to understand, I don't know what is but your posts always give me a headache trying to figure what you try to say. So I don't feel like you are the best person to say something like this to others.

That aside, I also think is the best if you three stop with whatever you all were trying to argument, you can continue in private or in the crt of Tiamat if is related with it.
Click to expand...
Second language + I like to write, as in Novels + Never spent any long amount of time using english convresationally/casually + The authors I like tend to be dead for a century or more.
But even in my first language I tend to write like a three-centuries old skeleton.

And it's hard to maintain 100% of composure when someone says X and then, in the very next post, asks "who said X" as if that had refuted your post. When you just quoted a phrase that the word "corpse" was used and the person affirms that "it was never said he/she was killed" implying he/she wasn't dead it's hard to not question the comprehension of the person.
 
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HammerStrikes219 said:
To being fair, you could also link the statements as well as my argument is more relating to the regeneration feat being high godly or not in the case of Tiamat.
Click to expand...
I wrote my reply while reading his post, so only got to yours later, after it was already done.
In my defense, when I try to write consciously not using subordination/long phrases, it sounds condescending (as in, the concept embodied)
 
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LehenDuo said:
I will ask for the third time - What even is the concept of the being? Repeatition of a term without definition doesn't help.
Click to expand...
I showed the crt that talked about it you can just like read it.

LehenDuo said:
You just said yourself that the thing store was data... Exactly what I said.

•Heroic Spirit summoning
Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

- AS RECORDS -

Already searched for too many citations, and don't remember who translated Tsukihime Remake, but Arcueid categorically defines the knowledge she acquires from her awakening/contact with sphere of human activity =/= the knowledge of the experience as the being in the actor role.
Click to expand...
The thing it store are data for servant, still have nothing to do with tiamat as she not recorded and she not a servant. She manifest by herself with independant manifestation.
LehenDuo said:
The point is - even if it was destroyed, that SG is of THAT iteration of Gilgamesh. That exists as a Invocated/Evocated being anchored by Tine.
Click to expand...
One more time why you use the example of servant and the fact of them being data to use it as an argument for Tiamat when she none of the two??.

LehenDuo said:
I seriously think you need to reread the entire story with more attention, because it gets to a point I'll have to quote the entirety of the VN, novels and the game...
I don't want to sound rude, but your grammar would suggest you do have some deficiency in comprehension. Still waiting for your quote of the ''fact'' above.

To start - BEAST is a class-container by definition. A container for an Evil of Humanity. Just like Saber, Lancer or any other class-container. It "defines" the vessel/shape/form the creature uses.
-- Tiamat COULD NOT BY DEFINITION become a Beast before Humanity itself existed. Her mythology is merely that. Cath Palug isn't a Beast in F/GO - yet still bears the capacity to become one. Same way with Angra Mainyuu in Fuyuki.

In her very profile she's described as bearing no personality. The thing there extant merely reacts by instinct.
Click to expand...
beast was only declared as being a "class" in early fate contradicted by litteraly every feat we got of them. Amaterasu alive is still considered as a potential beast, goetia was alive when he was a beast, cath plug is a alive and he doesn't suddenly transform into a servant or gain a container if he become a beast.

For the rest it doesn't contradict what i tell this much, tiamat was sealed when humanity begin to emerge really, she have like no Real interaction with them, she only become a Beast because the whole children who abandon her. It just that humanity is whithin her children so she become a beast of humanity.

And for the no personality, it's already tell in profile that she could have lose it or just never had one. (Well we know she have one so it's the first).

Something like a personality cannot be confirmed from her. Whether Tiamat has lost her ideals, or whether she has no reason since the beginning, it can be interpreted as either way, but one cannot surmise the reason.

Her behavioural ideology when becoming a Beast is extremely simple; she runs under the extremely primitive system of “If I do not kill humanity, I will be killed.”

For the last part i don't understand what you mean, are you like trying to tell it exist multiple tiamat or that she is register somewhere as data?? Because this will be so wrong in many level. Like litteraly one of her skill tell about her existing as the same being in all space-time and even your quote with gilga talk about how she is the alive one.

"And just to be sure, again. Shirou and EMIYA aren't the same person - this idea needs to be understood. This is important because this is exactly what this is about. Even in FGO, Space Ishtar event - Ishtar Ashtart and Ashtart Origin thing that is long and this post is long enough."
 
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LehenDuo said:
And it's hard to maintain 100% of composure when someone says X and then, in the very next post, asks "who said X" as if that had refuted your post. When you just quoted a phrase that the word "corpse" was used and the person affirms that "it was never said he/she was killed" implying he/she wasn't dead it's hard to not question the comprehension of the person.
Click to expand...
Because it's like litteraly tell she not dead nor killed? Not my fault if this if the first time you hear that in fiction having your body killed doesn't mean your dead.... Like if she was dead/killed they would like never banished her in INS.... We have like a part of material about her and marduk...
 
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Veloxt1r0kore said:
Nope, its a different Lostbelt a.k.a Apocalypse Belt

I have a feeling that after Neo-Babylonia chapter, instead Solomon chapter it will be a Messiah chapter
Click to expand...
Nebu/Gil-Faker has some really nice particularities. To sum it up - he did LOTs of fighting and LOTs of building. If Babylon is thought of as a ''large, prosperous city'', most of the responsability is of this guy. One of the things that has been introduced in Nasuverse is the Tower of Babel - maybe the inspiration for Babel is one of the temples he (re)built in it's final (and wonder-like) form, Etemenanki. The name means ''temple of the foundation of heaven and earth". The reconstructed historythey have done of this period and the culture of the Chaldeans is just ******* awesome by itself. Not imagine it withwhat was probably a 50m tall, 50m wide temple.

Is it public what exactly is Nasu's background? I thought he was a humanities type of guy, even remember reading he did Human Studies or something like that for Univ., but **** this guy is either a prophet/Terminal of the Planet or has read quite a lot about Physics/Hard Sciences.
 
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******* called that

Hello Babylon the Great NERO Version

Rereading the Bab Mythology, she's probably the City/Babylonia Sphere of Civilization itself

"engage in sexual activities in exchange of payment" to "through paying in life force (Morgan-like), allow creating of Human Order (and its Laws and Tools), sexual activities being a metaphor for creative activities and imagination, or maybe even allow itself to be used as magecraft foundation, payment being magical energy

Ishtar's Gate was constructed by Nebu II - it has one thing that made me think: the reliefs it bears - Bulls AND DRAGONS. The story of Ishtar's Gate - how it ended in Germany, is very ''someone did their homework to make basically infinite subtle plot ties'', aka Nasu-esque.
 
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Let's see if the leak is legit. If so, given that Nero also has rowns on her shoulders, it is expected that the outfit will include the other crowns.
Nebu-chad-nezzar II called his wife 'draco', so Nero would either come with a dragon or have a dragon form.

Hax will likely be BB's Ten Crowns invulnerability, but hoping for more.

For comparision this is the SMT design:
Mother_Harlot_%28SMTIII_Art%29.png
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Let's see if the leak is legit. If so, given that Nero also has rowns on her shoulders, it is expected that the outfit will include the other crowns.
Nebu-chad-nezzar II called his wife 'draco', so Nero would either come with a dragon or have a dragon form.

Hax will likely be BB's Ten Crowns invulnerability, but hoping for more.

For comparision this is the SMT design:
Mother_Harlot_%28SMTIII_Art%29.png
Click to expand...

Seems like GIlgamesh II couldn't say no to Saber-face.
But said no to Rin-face... no ******* sense has been made here.
 
She will appear in arcade for sure, though it could be possible that isn't gonna be summonable in arcade, and there also exist the possibilitie that instead she will be summonable in mobile, which could work as a pseudo revenge and my grailed Neros would be happy. That said if in the end she is arcade only I wouldn't be really mad because it would be with a reason and was something expected, the bad thing was what they did with Tiamat.

I'm beginning to have fear that Saber Raikou end becoming arcade only, that would hurt me as much as Tiamat.
 
it was definitively present in Greece, but while we have no definite proof, it likely originated from Egypt
 
I mean in Nasuverse, as in what game/novel it first appeared.
I remember it from Sion as "Tatari", but maybe it was used earlier
 
kyn4xzh972781.png


Really, is he from xianxia novels?

キャスターで喚ばれていたら、
　僕は絶対、グランドキャスターだったろうになァ

Grand Caster huh.
 
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