Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Cautiousexedius]

This is your assumption, and not proven by anything. Plus, its explained how ryougi came to the event (hint, she wasnt summoned from the throne), but her soul came.

Assumption? So are you implying to me that we can save the Root to ToH? It doesn't mean anything that your soul came. This is completely off topic. I'm talking about the inconsistencies of the Void being the same as the Saber.

Again, based on your assumption, and not fact.

If you think what I am saying is assumption, the same goes for you. Because you interpret the statements in your own way, even though these interpretations create contradictions. I have explained this in previous threads by evaluating Nasu's interview and the current situation

 

[Cautiousexedius]

—The flesh, we may say, becomes the basis of the intellect. It does not itself "have" an intellect. The flesh simply "is." But the flesh does have a personality, a will, of a kind. It grows up as one with, and gives birth to, the intellect. That - is what I am.

Ah, he said. He'd heard it somewhere before, hadn't he. That the human being is composed of three different things. Mind and soul, to which is added the fleshly body. Supposing, then, that the mind resides in the brain, and the soul in the body. That makes her - what? Shiki's essence. Her true character. A personality, "the body", with nothing of Shiki's heart.

Gently, she nodded her head. Ryougi Shiki did.

—Basically, that's how it is.

—"I" am not a personality borne of the intellect. I am the personality of the flesh as such.
—Ultimately, Shiki - he and she could exchange with one another because they held my currency in common. A single foundation governed them both. That is "Ryougi Shiki." You know Ryougi is liangyi, so it stands to reason that two liangyi together make a taiji, doesn't it? That is me. I am that which takes the shape of the taiji, its circular outline.

—They were my creations. Each of them an "I" of the same order as myself. Or, no; since they each possessed a will, an inclination of their own, you could say they were of a higher order than myself. Even if they were different personalities, their lines of thought were one in that they were both essentially the good and evil within "Ryougi Shiki." They originated from me, and concluded with me. Had they not, their differing inclinations should never have been able to coexist.



—I think I get it, he said. Your ability to "know" or "perceive" the outside world is dependent on Shiki's personality.

—Correct. I am simply an unpowered piece of hardware. Without the requisite software I am just an inert box.

Again the same argument and the same quote

 

[Wankbreaker]

Again the same argument and the same quote

Because it’s not getting through to you. Void Shiki herself says they are facets of the same existence.

She isn’t different from the other 2 existence wise (which is why she calls them the same order as herself)

 

[Wankbreaker]

here's the raw text,actually:

　わたしは、わたしと同格のわたしを作った。いえ、意志という方向性がある以上、彼女たちはわたしより高位 なわたしかしらね。ふたりが異なる人格であろうと思考回路が同一だったのは、彼女たちが結局『両儀式の中の 善と悪』だったから。発端はわたしであり、また、その結論もわたしにある。そうしなければ異なる方向性の彼 女たちが両立できるはずはないものね」


"I created another, equal version of myself. No, given that there's a sense of will, they might be considered higher than me. Although they are different personalities, their thought processes were identical because, after all, they were the 'good and evil within Shiki Ryougi.' The origin is me, and the conclusion also lies with me. Without that, those two, with their differing directions, wouldn't be able to coexist."

 

[Wankbreaker]

Assumption? So are you implying to me that we can save the Root to ToH? It doesn't mean anything that your soul came. This is completely off topic. I'm talking about the inconsistencies of the Void being the same as the Saber.

simple, she isnt the root. She just embodies it.
The personality of the body itself, embodying 「 」 that represents the beginning.

She slumbers within Shiki from her birth to her death.

unless... you think manaka is the root as well?

──世界そのものにさえ等しい、万物を生む根源がかたちを成した少女。沙条愛歌。
"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself. Sajyou Manaka."

真理と化した女の子であり、すべてを成せる女の子でした。 命を、と望めば命を発生させられる。 ささや まんえん 死を、と囁けば死を蔓延させられる。 つな 世界は彼女と繫がっていて、彼女は世界と繫がっていたのかもしれません。 彼女はおよそ全能でした。 不可能などひとつもない。すべてを操って、成し遂げ、崩し去ることができる。そんな機能をもって ゆえしまった故に何事にも楽しみがなくなってしまった彼女は、自分の全能にひとつだけルールを作りまし た。 それは「自分の未来は見ないようにする」というものです。 世界そのものにも等しい彼女は、自分自身に制限を掛けたのです。 かせ ルール。制限。枷。だって、それぐらいしないと全能はとても退屈で。ヒトのままでいる意味がまるで なくなって、生命活動なんて続けていられない。きっと死んでしまう。 結果的に、彼女の行動は正解だったのでしょう。まぶた 少なくとも彼女は毎朝眠りから目覚めて、瞼を開けて、呼吸をして、窓越しに空を見上げたり、さえず 小鳥の囀りへ耳を傾けたり、父へ透き通った視線を向けたりできました。父の言うがままに魔術を操るあれこれもやってのけました。生まれたばかりの妹に対しては、父や母のように涙を流したりはし ないまでも、他の人間たちがするように、小さな妹の頰を指でつついて、その柔らかさを確かめたりで きました。

She was a girl who became truth itself, a girl who could accomplish everything. If she wished for life, she could create it. If she whispered death, she could spread it. The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world. She was virtually omnipotent. There was not a single thing that was impossible. She could manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything. Because she had such abilities, she lost enjoyment in everything and decided to create one rule about her omnipotence. That was "to not see her own future."She, who was almost equal to the world itself, imposed limitations on herself. A rule. A restriction. A shackle. Because without doing that much, omnipotence was very boring. Staying human became meaningless, and continuing life activities wouldn't be possible. She would surely perish. In the end, her action was probably the right decision.At the very least, every morning she awakened from sleep, opened her eyes, breathed, and looked up at the sky through the window. She could listen to the chirping of small birds and gaze transparently at her father. As her father instructed, she performed various acts of magic. Although she did not shed tears like her father or mother for her newborn sister, she could poke her little sister's cheeks with her fingers, like other humans do, to feel their softness.

Also, it isnt unrelated. The soul is a perfect record of the existence, unless damage or corrupted in some way.
Shiki transported her soul, ergo her existence to the singularity. Meaning there is no feasible reason for her to be nerfed, realistically.

Nasu also says that she's at the same tier as OG ciel, btw.

If you think what I am saying is assumption, the same goes for you. Because you interpret the statements in your own way, even though these interpretations create contradictions. I have explained this in previous threads by evaluating Nasu's interview and the current situation

And I explained how there is no contradiction.

 

[LamentSatanael]

My sister in spook Wankbreaker if only you put this much effort into replying my Olga > AE argument

But regardless, I think I can see your points regarding the Void thing but idrc at the end of the day.

Question for Godboy— you got any specific FSN calcs?

 

[Wankbreaker]

My sister in spook Wankbreaker if only you put this much effort into replying my Olga > AE argument

lazy zzz

I can see your point though, I just think Olga is hard to place.

AE is also according to MBAA, capable of creating supernovae (or at least miniature ones

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Question for Godboy— you got any specific FSN calcs?

Me? Uh, I've never done any calcs before. Or did you mean that there were any feats I wanted calced?

The only from Fate/stay night that I can think of off the top of my head is Heracles slicing a mountain in half, but that's been calculated a lot before.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

Because it’s not getting through to you. Void Shiki herself says they are facets of the same existence.

She isn’t different from the other 2 existence wise (which is why she calls them the same order as herself)

The fact that they are "aspects" of the same existence does not make them equivalent to the same level, the same ontological level or the same power. We can explain this simply with [].

Although the Vortex of Origin, the Akashic Records or the Spiral Origin are referred to as aspects of [], this does not mean that [] is on the same level as the Vortex of Origin, the Spiral Origin or the Akashic Records. Although they are aspects of [], the Akashic Records are referred to as such by magicians and those whose ultimate goal is to access the root. And the meaning behind that varies according to one's understanding, and it's generally considered to be the source of everything and the place from which everything flows.

But these are only one aspect or extension of it and cannot be reduced to any sub-aspect. And although these aspects are explained differently by each consciousness, the moment we baptize [] as anything, it ceases to be [], because the naming reduces it to what it is not by nature. And this means that even though they are aspects of the same existence, they are in a different state. Here [] is Void. So this aspect state is analogous to this

here's the raw text,actually:

　わたしは、わたしと同格のわたしを作った。いえ、意志という方向性がある以上、彼女たちはわたしより高位 なわたしかしらね。ふたりが異なる人格であろうと思考回路が同一だったのは、彼女たちが結局『両儀式の中の 善と悪』だったから。発端はわたしであり、また、その結論もわたしにある。そうしなければ異なる方向性の彼 女たちが両立できるはずはないものね」


"I created another, equal version of myself. No, given that there's a sense of will, they might be considered higher than me. Although they are different personalities, their thought processes were identical because, after all, they were the 'good and evil within Shiki Ryougi.' The origin is me, and the conclusion also lies with me. Without that, those two, with their differing directions, wouldn't be able to coexist."

You don't need to talk about the distinction about personality again here because you cannot take Saber as one of her aspects and reduce it to the same existence, there is a clear difference. And you still think that his being the personality of the body limits it

simple, she isnt the root. She just embodies it.
The personality of the body itself, embodying 「 」 that represents the beginning.

She slumbers within Shiki from her birth to her death.

unless... you think manaka is the root as well?

Just concretize it? It is also part of it, even "itself". This is clearly indicated in the scans. If you are claiming that it is not the root and that you only embody it and are not part of it, I can send you the scans on that. And Manaka and Shiki are not related to the Root to the same extent. She is connected to the Akashic Record, Shiki is connected to [], or herself, if we honestly take aspects and talk about it.

Also, it isnt unrelated. The soul is a perfect record of the existence, unless damage or corrupted in some way.
Shiki transported her soul, ergo her existence to the singularity. Meaning there is no feasible reason for her to be nerfed, realistically.

Nasu also says that she's at the same tier as OG ciel, btw.

It is not difficult to understand that is the Assassin form of Shiki, which Nasu says here is equal to Ciel. And again, if you are going to make the absurd argument that it is Void, I suggest you review what I said in the previous thread. It's annoying trying to explain the same things to someone over and over again, especially when it's such a ridiculous topic.
Also, "Nasu said so" is a phrase we shouldn't use

 

[Wankbreaker]

The fact that they are "aspects" of the same existence does not make them equivalent to the same level, the same ontological level or the same power. We can explain this simply with [].

This is EXACTLY what she says, actually.
I repeat myself (yet again)

わたしは、わたしと同格のわたしを作った。いえ、意志という方向性がある以上、彼女たちはわたしより高位 なわたしかしらね。ふたりが異なる人格であろうと思考回路が同一だったのは、彼女たちが結局『両儀式の中の 善と悪』だったから。発端はわたしであり、また、その結論もわたしにある。そうしなければ異なる方向性の彼 女たちが両立できるはずはないものね」


"I created another, equal version of myself. No, given that there's a sense of will, they might be considered higher than me. Although they are different personalities, their thought processes were identical because, after all, they were the 'good and evil within Shiki Ryougi.' The origin is me, and the conclusion also lies with me. Without that, those two, with their differing directions, wouldn't be able to coexist.”

Although the Vortex of Origin, the Akashic Records or the Spiral Origin are referred to as aspects of [], this does not mean that [] is on the same level as the Vortex of Origin, the Spiral Origin or the Akashic Records. Although they are aspects of [], the Akashic Records are referred to as such by magicians and those whose ultimate goal is to access the root. And the meaning behind that varies according to one's understanding, and it's generally considered to be the source of everything and the place from which everything flows.

There’s no difference, actually. Void Shiki uses the 2 terms interchangeably. Even if we say your argument is true, she very clearly has a name, being “Ryougi Shiki”. Therefore it shoots your own argument in the foot, as she can’t be “ “, she’s “Ryougi Shiki”.

But these are only one aspect or extension of it and cannot be reduced to any sub-aspect. And although these aspects are explained differently by each consciousness, the moment we baptize [] as anything, it ceases to be [], because the naming reduces it to what it is not by nature. And this means that even though they are aspects of the same existence, they are in a different state. Here [] is Void. So this aspect state is analogous to this

Addressed above.

She can’t be “ “, as she has an Origin, which means she is a derivative.

Something that has a cause cannot be the fundamental cause.

Origin [Others]
The direction of everything that arose from fundamental cause. The α that enabled the existence of α, the absolute order that existed at the very core.

Using your argument, Why is Shiki “ “, if she has a name? She shouldn’t be equal to “ “ if we take your argument as fact.

You don't need to talk about the distinction about personality again here because you cannot take Saber as one of her aspects and reduce it to the same existence, there is a clear difference. And you still think that his being the personality of the body limits it

We are told that the soul holds the records of the person’s existence and origin, and can perfectly create it if needed.


It does.

—Even so, the fact that I'm here, now, talking to you is entirely due to the personality of Shiki. If she wasn't here, I wouldn't even have language. I am, after all, nothing but flesh.

Just concretize it? It is also part of it, even "itself". This is clearly indicated in the scans. If you are claiming that it is not the root and that you only embody it and are not part of it, I can send you the scans on that. And Manaka and Shiki are not related to the Root to the same extent. She is connected to the Akashic Record, Shiki is connected to [], or herself, if we honestly take aspects and talk about it.

This is again, never said. Manaka is said to embody the “ Root of all creation”, and is “truth itself” (term used to refer to the Root, pretty much) If you want to be absolutely technical, she claimed to be the “Swirl of the Root”, not “ “. Your argument is again, moot.

It is not difficult to understand that is the Assassin form of Shiki, which Nasu says here is equal to Ciel. And again, if you are going to make the absurd argument that it is Void, I suggest you review what I said in the previous thread. It's annoying trying to explain the same things to someone over and over again, especially when it's such a ridiculous topic.

Ｑ：TYPE-MOON他作品で、アルク以外にサーヴァントとガチンコできるのは誰ですか？

Ａ：一対一、宝具が極めて平均的なものであるなら…という前提でいきます。二十七祖のほぼ全員、軋間紅摩、蒼崎青子。防衛戦だが戦闘になる、というのであればシエル。式、志貴の主人公コンビはサーヴァントには及びません…でも、「両儀式」ならシエルクラスまであがるかも。

Keep in mind, void shiki isn’t her canon name, it’s 「両儀式」, or “Ryougi Shiki”

So yes, it is her.

Also, "Nasu said so" is a phrase we shouldn't use

If you have to get to a level where you think you know more than the author to justify your scaling, there’s an issue.

 

[LamentSatanael]

AE is also according to MBAA, capable of creating supernovae (or at least miniature ones

Discussed already learnt off-site; it's merely likening it to an FGO animation. It's not "creating supernovae" but rather an explosion like it — which is merely addressing the animation again. Just thought I'd address this in case someone mislearns it.

 

[Deadlock-333]

Fate Zero has better writing than any fate

Lostbelt 6 would like to disagree

I know it's personal preference but I still enjoyed lb6 way more than zero

 

[Franstel]

Lb6 was enjoyable but i wouldn't say it was that good at least compared to the mainline fate.
Fate/Zero have some flaws but it's still miles above anything in fgo.

 

[Cautiousexedius]

This is EXACTLY what she says, actually.
I repeat myself (yet again)

わたしは、わたしと同格のわたしを作った。いえ、意志という方向性がある以上、彼女たちはわたしより高位 なわたしかしらね。ふたりが異なる人格であろうと思考回路が同一だったのは、彼女たちが結局『両儀式の中の 善と悪』だったから。発端はわたしであり、また、その結論もわたしにある。そうしなければ異なる方向性の彼 女たちが両立できるはずはないものね」


"I created another, equal version of myself. No, given that there's a sense of will, they might be considered higher than me. Although they are different personalities, their thought processes were identical because, after all, they were the 'good and evil within Shiki Ryougi.' The origin is me, and the conclusion also lies with me. Without that, those two, with their differing directions, wouldn't be able to coexist.”

If the aspects of an existence, when explained by any character, do not explicitly explain that it is divided into aspects, then we have to interpret it ourselves.
Because if we don't proceed with this logic, we basically can't explain the aspects of [] and we can't address the inherent ineffability of []. This creates a contradiction with the series. Shiki refers to them as if they are actually "the same" because their aspects are also part of him, but no. These scales and interpretations have to be interpreted from a different point of view

There’s no difference, actually. Void Shiki uses the 2 terms interchangeably. Even if we say your argument is true, she very clearly has a name, being “Ryougi Shiki”. Therefore it shoots your own argument in the foot, as she can’t be “ “, she’s “Ryougi Shiki”.

No. I've said this before, Nasu explicitly refers to Ryougi Shiki in the Epilogue excerpts about the Void using Shiki's body in the scans, but that's because it's the Void that we identify with the body. It is the personality of the body and the body belongs to Ryougi Shiki.

But it is the 3rd personality that inherits it, where the other masculine and feminine personality is not aware of it, but the 3rd personality creates the other two personalities.

You are also undermining your own argument like me as you think about me in the way you mentioned in the last sentence. You say it can't be [] because it's Ryougi Shiki, but in canon it's also referred to as [Shiki Ryougi].

And as we both know, even though the name Void is not used as a canon, Nasu describes Shiki as if she is [], referring to her as []. You are claiming that it has nothing to do with the Root, or that it is not the Root itself. And if that were the case, we would not be able to answer why the name Void is derived because there is no "Void"

There’s no difference, actually. Void Shiki uses the 2 terms interchangeably. Even if we say your argument is true, she very clearly has a name, being “Ryougi Shiki”. Therefore it shoots your own argument in the foot, as she can’t be “ “, she’s “Ryougi Shiki

She doesn't have a name. I refer to her by her name so that it is clear who and what I mean by what I say. For a character whose avatar alone says something like if you have a name you can't exist here, saying that if you have a name you can't be [] shows that you are really a hater

We are told that the soul holds the records of the person’s existence and origin, and can perfectly create it if needed.


It does..

The only ones who can do this are Saber and Assassin, who are in a state of transformation. It is not void because it has no origin. I also wonder why you would make the absurd statement that someone who has a cause cannot be the basis of causes. She is clearly outside of such cause and effect relationships.

This is again, never said. Manaka is said to embody the “ Root of all creation”, and is “truth itself” (term used to refer to the Root, pretty much) If you want to be absolutely technical, she claimed to be the “Swirl of the Root”, not “ “. Your argument is again, moot.

This claim alone makes her superior to Manaka. Manaka can interfere with reality by accessing the Akashic records where the plot exists. She never claimed, like the Void, that she was the origin of everything and that everything was part of his dream, that she could destroy the world with her own hands and change the existence of the universe on an atomic level by intervening in the past and the future. And above all, Manaka's connection to the root is limited to mana circuits. And the Swirl of the Root is one of the aspects of []. I have explained this above

 

[Cautiousexedius]

If you have to get to a level where you think you know more than the author to justify your scaling, there’s an issue.

Such a thing is not possible for anyone except Nasu and I have never claimed such a thing

 

[Wankbreaker]

If the aspects of an existence, when explained by any character, do not explicitly explain that it is divided into aspects, then we have to interpret it ourselves.
Because if we don't proceed with this logic, we basically can't explain the aspects of [] and we can't address the inherent ineffability of []. This creates a contradiction with the series. Shiki refers to them as if they are actually "the same" because their aspects are also part of him, but no. These scales and interpretations have to be interpreted from a different point of view

Shiki doesnt say "the same", but "equal". Theres no going around this one.
Are you saying her statements are unreliable? Because if so, this helps my argument.

No. I've said this before, Nasu explicitly refers to Ryougi Shiki in the Epilogue excerpts about the Void using Shiki's body in the scans, but that's because it's the Void that we identify with the body. It is the personality of the body and the body belongs to Ryougi Shiki.

She quite literally says she is nothing but flesh.

—Even so, the fact that I'm here, now, talking to you is entirely due to the personality of Shiki. If she wasn't here, I wouldn't even have language. I am, after all, nothing but flesh.

But it is the 3rd personality that inherits it, where the other masculine and feminine personality is not aware of it, but the 3rd personality creates the other two personalities.

see above

—But there's no helping it, I'm afraid. I am a body and nothing more, after all. We are the one thing, she and I, so I've no choice but to follow along with her dream.

You are also undermining your own argument like me as you think about me in the way you mentioned in the last sentence. You say it can't be [] because it's Ryougi Shiki, but in canon it's also referred to as [Shiki Ryougi].

And as we both know, even though the name Void is not used as a canon, Nasu describes Shiki as if she is [], referring to her as []. You are claiming that it has nothing to do with the Root, or that it is not the Root itself. And if that were the case, we would not be able to answer why the name Void is derived because there is no "Void"

She doesn't have a name. I refer to her by her name so that it is clear who and what I mean by what I say. For a character whose avatar alone says something like if you have a name you can't exist here, saying that if you have a name you can't be [] shows that you are really a hater

Ryougi Shiki was her name. But the tone she now took was unfamiliar. Who stood here was neither the Shiki he knew, nor the other he had known, but another still, altogether unknowable.

—But I was born a Ryougi, which is not a normal circumstance. The members of the Ryougi family bestowed an intellect upon me. Upon that hollow, thoughtless thing. They had plans for their daughter: they wanted to make Ryougi Shiki into an all-capable human being.

She’s the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl who wears a jacket over her kimono. However, their personalities are different.

If Shiki Ryougi is the girl known as 「Shiki」, then this person is the woman known as「Shiki Ryougi」

She also describes the other 2 personalities as being the good and evil within Ryougi Shiki, aka her. She is the "outline"

The only ones who can do this are Saber and Assassin, who are in a state of transformation. It is not void because it has no origin. I also wonder why you would make the absurd statement that someone who has a cause cannot be the basis of causes. She is clearly outside of such cause and effect relationships.

The soul can perfectly replicate everything about an existence (and is also where someone’s Origin lies). Void Shiki is Ryougi’s body.

“The soul.It is not the law of the physical world, but something of the higher order, the record of all the bodies within the concept of the astral world....Yes, if one has the soul, one should be able to reconstruct their body even if the original body and genes have been lost.So in other words, this old magus is...”

They aren't "transformed". It's the exact same existence.
The fact that she has a cause (Origin) means she is not the fundamental cause (Root). A fundamental cause is the "first" cause in a chain of events or phenomena—it’s the initial source from which everything else flows. It does not have something that enables its existence or causes it. This means she isnt Acasual either.

This claim alone makes her superior to Manaka. Manaka can interfere with reality by accessing the Akashic records where the plot exists. She never claimed, like the Void, that she was the origin of everything and that everything was part of his dream, that she could destroy the world with her own hands and change the existence of the universe on an atomic level by intervening in the past and the future.

These same things were literally in the statements I sent to you.

真理と化した女の子であり、すべてを成せる女の子でした。 命を、と望めば命を発生させられる。 ささや まんえん 死を、と囁けば死を蔓延させられる。 つな 世界は彼女と繫がっていて、彼女は世界と繫がっていたのかもしれません。 彼女はおよそ全能でした。 不可能などひとつもない。すべてを操って、成し遂げ、崩し去ることができる。そんな機能をもって ゆえしまった故に何事にも楽しみがなくなってしまった彼女は、自分の全能にひとつだけルールを作りまし た。 それは「自分の未来は見ないようにする」というものです。 世界そのものにも等しい彼女は、自分自身に制限を掛けたのです。 かせ ルール。制限。枷。だって、それぐらいしないと全能はとても退屈で。ヒトのままでいる意味がまるで なくなって、生命活動なんて続けていられない。きっと死んでしまう。 結果的に、彼女の行動は正解だったのでしょう。まぶた 少なくとも彼女は毎朝眠りから目覚めて、瞼を開けて、呼吸をして、窓越しに空を見上げたり、さえず 小鳥の囀りへ耳を傾けたり、父へ透き通った視線を向けたりできました。父の言うがままに魔術を操るあれこれもやってのけました。生まれたばかりの妹に対しては、父や母のように涙を流したりはし ないまでも、他の人間たちがするように、小さな妹の頰を指でつついて、その柔らかさを確かめたりで きました。

She was a girl who became truth itself, a girl who could accomplish everything. If she wished for life, she could create it. If she whispered death, she could spread it. The world might have been connected to her, and she to the world. She was virtually omnipotent. There was not a single thing that was impossible. She could manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything. Because she had such abilities, she lost enjoyment in everything and decided to create one rule about her omnipotence. That was "to not see her own future."She, who was almost equal to the world itself, imposed limitations on herself. A rule. A restriction. A shackle. Because without doing that much, omnipotence was very boring. Staying human became meaningless, and continuing life activities wouldn't be possible. She would surely perish. In the end, her action was probably the right decision.At the very least, every morning she awakened from sleep, opened her eyes, breathed, and looked up at the sky through the window. She could listen to the chirping of small birds and gaze transparently at her father. As her father instructed, she performed various acts of magic. Although she did not shed tears like her father or mother for her newborn sister, she could poke her little sister's cheeks with her fingers, like other humans do, to feel their softness.

──世界そのものにさえ等しい、万物を生む根源がかたちを成した少女。沙条愛歌。"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself. Sajyou Manaka.

And above all, Manaka's connection to the root is limited to mana circuits. And the Swirl of the Root is one of the aspects of []. I have explained this above

If someone who embodies the root (Manaka) cant overturn the counterforce, why would someone who also embodies the root (but with even LESS mana) change this?

 

[Cautiousexedius]

Shiki doesnt say "the same", but "equal". Theres no going around this one.
Are you saying her statements are unreliable? Because if so, this helps my argument.

I'm not saying anything like that. The aspects of a being are also part of that being and they are all one whole, it's impossible to separate them or reduce them to anything else.
And Shiki is indirectly using the word "equal" for things that are actually identical.

The root is an indivisible whole, the other aspects can be named by the interpretation of different consciousnesses and minds. So Shiki's statement is not a problem. This is a kind of inductive approach.

She quite literally says she is nothing but flesh.

As in the other expressions, Shiki speaks of herself as nothing, but she refers to this nothingness by saying that she is part of the Root and that she is herself. Saying that she is nothing but flesh characterizes her as encompassing both nothingness and all of nothingness. This is evidenced by the fact that the Void uses similar expressions more than once.

also describes the other 2 personalities as being the good and evil within Ryougi Shiki, aka her. She is the "outline"

Shiki is defined as good, SHIKI is defined as evil, and the personality in which these distinctions are embodied is her 3rd personality.

Also "The person standing here was neither the Shiki she knew, nor the other she knew, but still another completely unknown person." and "She is the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl wearing a jacket over her kimono.But their personalities are different", which explains everything I mean.

Even though you send me these arguments, you don't want to or don't understand what I am talking about. All you have to do is reconcile what I am saying with these arguments. All 3 personalities inherit the same body but all 3 are different. The 3rd personality is a void while the other two are masculine and feminine. Thanks to his family, Void has a body. And his 3rd personality is simply the Root itself, as mentioned in the scans

They aren't "transformed". It's the exact same existence.
The fact that she has a cause (Origin) means she is not the fundamental cause (Root). A fundamental cause is the "first" cause in a chain of events or phenomena—it’s the initial source from which everything else flows. It does not have something that enables its existence or causes it. This means she isnt Acasual either.

What? You said the same thing again and I answered it in my previous post. And no, Saber and Assassin have the ability to transform with each other, even though they are the same being. Void is out of it. We've already seen this in FGO

These same things were literally in the statements I sent to you.

Same? Is Manaka really making similar claims like Void did? I don't think so. Cite your context again. I hope you're not conflating Manaka's relationship with Root with what Shiki said she could do. That would be quite funny

someone who embodies the root (Manaka) cant overturn the counterforce, why would someone who also embodies the root (but with even LESS mana) change this?

Because Manaka and Shiki are not related to Root at the same level.

That's what you need to understand here. And you are using it as a rebuttal. Otherwise we would have to say that CounterForce is in a higher authority than Root.

While Manaka can use the Root to a limited extent, Void not only uses the Root, but is the Root. This failure of Manaka highlights the difference in power

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Just delete TM off this site and restart all over and split the canons for goodness sake if people can split disney starwars and EU or split the beyonders profiles in two or split DC then TM should not be an exception because of a bunch of ignorant people.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Just delete TM off this site and restart all over and split the canons for goodness sake if people can split disney starwars and EU or split the beyonders profiles in two or split DC then TM should not be an exception because of a bunch of ignorant people.

It’s simple. Because there are no inconsistencies on that level, and the fact that you’re erroneously trying to apply a western concept to a Japanese work.

(They don’t even have a word for canon, the closest they have is just denoting what is official, and what is not.)

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

They don’t even have a word for canon, the closest they have is just denoting what is official, and what is not.

bro, that is literally what canon means in the context of words like 正史

 

[Huesito88]

Curious Breaker, I know you disagree with the current scaling, Cosmology, Hax, and AP, but are you fine with the current speed ratings (FTL and Immeasurable Speed)?

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm not saying anything like that. The aspects of a being are also part of that being and they are all one whole, it's impossible to separate them or reduce them to anything else.
And Shiki is indirectly using the word "equal" for things that are actually identical.

The root is an indivisible whole, the other aspects can be named by the interpretation of different consciousnesses and minds. So Shiki's statement is not a problem. This is a kind of inductive approach.

As in the other expressions, Shiki speaks of herself as nothing, but she refers to this nothingness by saying that she is part of the Root and that she is herself. Saying that she is nothing but flesh characterizes her as encompassing both nothingness and all of nothingness. This is evidenced by the fact that the Void uses similar expressions more than once.

The claim about aspects being "inseparable" and "identical" is directly contradicted by Void Shiki's own words. She explicitly states that:
She is specifically "the personality of the flesh as such"
The other personalities are actually "higher " than herself, since they possess a will, despite them being created as equal portions
She is "simply an unpowered piece of hardware"
The argument about being "part of the Root" and encompassing "nothingness" misinterprets Void Shiki's statements about being "nothing but flesh." The text shows that when she says this, she's being literal - she is the personality of the physical body itself, not some metaphysical representation of nothingness.

The claim about "indivisible whole" is contradicted by how the personalities are explicitly described as separate and hierarchical:

The other personalities are described as "higher order", despite starting out as equal ontologically, because of their sense of will
They have their own distinct wills and inclinations
They are described as "creations" of Void Shiki, not as identical aspects
The text directly contradicts the idea of identity with the Root by establishing that Void Shiki has an Origin, which by definition means she is a derivative being.

Shiki is defined as good, SHIKI is defined as evil, and the personality in which these distinctions are embodied is her 3rd personality.

Also "The person standing here was neither the Shiki she knew, nor the other she knew, but still another completely unknown person." and "She is the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl wearing a jacket over her kimono.But their personalities are different", which explains everything I mean.

She is still recognized as having a name.

Even though you send me these arguments, you don't want to or don't understand what I am talking about. All you have to do is reconcile what I am saying with these arguments. All 3 personalities inherit the same body but all 3 are different. The 3rd personality is a void while the other two are masculine and feminine. Thanks to his family, Void has a body. And his 3rd personality is simply the Root itself, as mentioned in the scans

What? You said the same thing again and I answered it in my previous post. And no, Saber and Assassin have the ability to transform with each other, even though they are the same being. Void is out of it. We've already seen this in FGO

The personalities just switch, what? Something similar happens in KNK 5.

Same? Is Manaka really making similar claims like Void did? I don't think so. Cite your context again. I hope you're not conflating Manaka's relationship with Root with what Shiki said she could do. That would be quite funny

"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself"
"She was a girl who became truth itself"
"She could do anything"

Because Manaka and Shiki are not related to Root at the same level.

That's what you need to understand here. And you are using it as a rebuttal. Otherwise we would have to say that CounterForce is in a higher authority than Root.

While Manaka can use the Root to a limited extent, Void not only uses the Root, but is the Root. This failure of Manaka highlights the difference in power

She is explicitly described as "the girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself"
She is described as "truth itself"
She could "manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything"

 

[Wankbreaker]

bro, that is literally what canon means in the context of words like 正史

正史 is used VERY loosely to describe a timeline of all official or recognized works.

not the same concept as "canon" in the slightest

 

[Wankbreaker]

This isnt a new concept either ^
Many people before me have explained in detail why its erroneous to apply the concept of canon to JP works 99% of the time.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Curious Breaker, I know you disagree with the current scaling, Cosmology, Hax, and AP, but are you fine with the current speed ratings (FTL and Immeasurable Speed)?

FTL is fine (though it should be scaling to far less characters)

But Immeasurable speed should be removed.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

正史 is used VERY loosely to describe a timeline of all official or recognized works.

not the same concept as "canon" in the slightest

This isnt a new concept either ^
Many people before me have explained in detail why its erroneous to apply the concept of canon to JP works 99% of the time.

"many people" I can also appeal all day to translators like Herms who lives in Japan and has been translating for the better part of 20 years and says they're used in more or less the same way by Japanese fans


I guarantee you none of those people you're appealing to even have any coherent idea of what canon means in English when it's used in regards to fiction

 

[Wankbreaker]

"many people" I can also appeal all day to translators like Herms who lives in Japan and has been translating for the better part of 20 years and says they're used in more or less the same way by Japanese fans


I guarantee you none of those people you're appealing to even have any coherent idea of what canon means in English when it's used in regards to fiction

The latter half just confirms what I said.

“正史” when translated literally just means official/ recognized history.

Type Moon treats all of its works as a part of this, to the point where a lot of nasuverse fans just say there is no “canon”.

We are not doing an arbitrary split so araya can be “beyond mere ultimate ones”

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

“正史” when translated literally just means official/ recognized history.

Type Moon treats all of its works as a part of this, to the point where a lot of nasuverse fans just say there is no “canon”.

"so this term means (literally what canon means) and TM treats everything as canon therefore canon doesn't exist"

 

[Wankbreaker]

"so this term means (literally what canon means) and TM treats everything as canon therefore canon doesn't exist"

not really? The Japanese just care about what is official and what isn’t. They don’t go into stupid arguments about how Future Gospel isn’t canon because ryougi had a child. (do those people know that MF was written in 99-2000?) It just wasn’t released until far later

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

not really? The Japanese just care about what is official and what isn’t. They don’t go into stupid arguments about how Future Gospel isn’t canon because ryougi had a child. (do those people know that MF was written in 99-2000?) It just wasn’t released until far later

how would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning

 

[Wankbreaker]

how would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning

how would you feel without sion

 

[KingNanaya]

what on earth

 

[LehenDuo]

Type Moon treats all of its works as a part of this, to the point where a lot of nasuverse fans just say there is no “canon”.

The only canon are jokes, everyone knows this.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The only canon are jokes, everyone knows this.

so true, u-Eliza ORT is the strongest character in the nasuverse now

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

so true, u-Eliza ORT is the strongest character in the nasuverse now

Probably not since she was a dream construct created by Oberon.

I know this is a joke; I just thought it would be funny to respond seriously.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Probably not since she was a dream construct created by Oberon.

I know this is a joke; I just thought it would be funny to respond seriously.

who says a dream can’t be reality?

 

[LehenDuo]

who says a dream can’t be reality?

why can't a copy/fake be stronger than the original?

 

[Cautiousexedius]

The claim about aspects being "inseparable" and "identical" is directly contradicted by Void Shiki's own words. She explicitly states that:
She is specifically "the personality of the flesh as such"
The other personalities are actually "higher " than herself, since they possess a will, despite them being created as equal portions
She is "simply an unpowered piece of hardware"
The argument about being "part of the Root" and encompassing "nothingness" misinterprets Void Shiki's statements about being "nothing but flesh." The text shows that when she says this, she's being literal - she is the personality of the physical body itself, not some metaphysical representation of nothingness.

The claim about "indivisible whole" is contradicted by how the personalities are explicitly described as separate and hierarchical:

The other personalities are described as "higher order", despite starting out as equal ontologically, because of their sense of will
They have their own distinct wills and inclinations
They are described as "creations" of Void Shiki, not as identical aspects
The text directly contradicts the idea of identity with the Root by establishing that Void Shiki has an Origin, which by definition means she is a derivative being.

She is still recognized as having a name.

The personalities just switch, what? Something similar happens in KNK 5.

"The girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself"
"She was a girl who became truth itself"
"She could do anything"


She is explicitly described as "the girl who embodies the very Root of all creation, equal to the world itself"
She is described as "truth itself"
She could "manipulate, achieve, and dismantle everything"

It became so boring to talk about the same things that I was forgetting the reason for this topic. Anyway I'm not going to respond to this topic anymore because it turns into a dead-end loop every time

 

[Wankbreaker]

It became so boring to talk about the same things that I was forgetting the reason for this topic. Anyway I'm not going to respond to this topic anymore because it turns into a dead-end loop every time

concession accepted, thank you for playing

 

[SweetDao]

concession accepted, thank you for playing

I swear, why the meaningless taunt? The guy was civil all the way.