Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions

[Dargoo_Faust]

That's not the point, the point is consistency. If you take Rank A as far above B and C, while it's obviously not the case by the progression, just for NPs because opinion, just throw away the whole thing, because at that point, it makes no sense at all already.

And Rank A phantasms consistently off servants with Herc-level durability and lower in one shot in both the anime and the VN.

Meanwhile B and C ranked phantasms have a lot more trouble putting down a servant for good.

When the **** did I said that?

There's not even ''a ton of instakill examples'' because PIS

Okay. I guess Excalibur Morgan fodderizing Herc was just PIS.

Caladbolg II, the Archer version, isn't even about area, how exactly are you calcing that? The whole point of Caladbolg II is piercing damage by twisting space. The explosion seen in Herakles scene isn't even the NP itself, is cause by Herc axe-swording the broken phantasm.

I didn't even calc Caladbolg II nor was I talking about Caladbolg II, I'm commenting on the calc of the original Caladbolg from Argatha and saying that would one-shot nearly every servant. You can read the conversation you just commented on by scrolling up if you're having issues understanding it.

Either there are a fuckton of examples like you said, or ''the examples that disagree''. Pick one, stop moving the goalpost. Also, which examples? Where are the ''far below A ranked'' calcs or examples?

And this was the first time I was asked to provide the examples that are so mind-numbingly common that Lancelot took what I said out of good faith. I'll pull the collection, just give me a second.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

The other issue is the fact that Arash survived Arondight Overload though heavily wounded, and Karna came out of Balmung to the face with minor injuries at best. Both of these are the exact same type and rank as Caladbolg, which got revised to a 200 to 500 megaton yield (though this of course would require looking into the feat for any issues). If you divide that by 10 as Vasavi does, that's 20 to 50 megatons, also in 6-C.

Not really, Overload is an A rank Anti-Unit NP. Balmung and Caladbolg are A+ rank Anti-Army NPs (at least pre-rank up)

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

peaking of which how do we treat rank-ups and interludes boosting the power of Noble Phantasms?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

peaking of which how do we treat rank-ups and interludes boosting the power of Noble Phantasms?

I'd say they don't really mean anything unless the Interlude itself explains what was upgraded.

I guess it might mean something if it's vs. a servant that cares about Rank like Herc.

 

[LehenDuo]

And Rank A phantasms consistently off servants with Herc-level durability and lower in one shot in both the anime and the VN.

Okay. I guess Excalibur Morgan fodderizing Herc was just PIS.

Herc-level Durability, aka, Endurance A Unarmored, which okay, is high, but never the actual point
I mean, you do understand the whole point of Herc is that he is a hard skill check x12? You either have STR A or A-ranked attacks, you don't = you LITERALLY can't do shit. Even if you do, after you kill him with it (which isn't all that hard, Rin does it with modern magecraft, even if spending a lot of mana, Caster can do it, Gil literally bitch slaps Herc after understanding he has to use high rank NPs...)
And I really don't understand the point about Excalibur Morgan you are making. It is a Divine Construct of Rank A++, used by a special saber with Mana A++ that has acess to as much magical energy as a true Heroic Spirit when under the Counter Force. How is it PIS when it is the minimum expected it ******* destroy Herc multiple times, given even Caliburn could?

I didn't even calc Caladbolg II nor was I talking about Caladbolg II, I'm commenting on the calc of the original Caladbolg from Argatha and saying that would one-shot nearly every servant. You can read the conversation you just commented on by scrolling up if you're having issues understanding it.

Okay, I understood it incorrectly. But it does seem you are just making an AoE fallacy, at least to me... If it's not it, then I really don't understand your point.

Meanwhile B and C ranked phantasms have a lot more trouble putting down a servant for good.

You mean like Gae Bolg, who can insta-kill the strongest character of Earth, by word of god?
Or Stella, that created a ******* river long enough to be a country border?
Or Kid Child Gate of Babylon, who can basically mini carpet bomb with Rank A treasures
Phoebus, from Atalanta?
Melammu Dingir?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I just wanna say. Noble Phantasms have different specializations. Some are better at being Anti-Unit. Some are better at Aoe Anti-Army

Some are for small range Aoe but really strong Anti-fortress i believe that is? could be wrong there.

Noble phatnasms can sometimes be kind of Niche if you get what i mean. They are better at some things than others are. In some instances Anti-Unit > Anti Army and the other way around.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

btw physical Strength wise. Gawain can overpower Nero in base and with his NotS (at least i think that is what he was using) he evenly matched a Command seal buffed Nero.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, you do understand the whole point of Herc is that he is a hard skill check x12? You either have STR A or A-ranked attacks, you don't = you LITERALLY can't do shit. Even if you do, after you kill him with it (which isn't all that hard, Rin does it with modern magecraft, even if spending a lot of mana, Caster can do it, Gil literally bitch slaps Herc after understanding he has to use high rank NPs...)

I mean, yes, I understand this, I'm just saying that when Rank A anti-fortress phantasms actually hit him they take one or multiple lives off immediately.

My point is servants with regular Rank A durability can't survive Rank A phantasms. And that we see C/B phantasms accomplish insta-killing a servant way less often, see Mordred + Blasted Tree and Salter + Crane Realm

And I really don't understand the point about Excalibur Morgan you are making. It is a Divine Construct of Rank A++, used by a special saber with Mana A++ that has acess to as much magical energy as a true Heroic Spirit when under the Counter Force. How is it PIS when it is the minimum expected it ******* destroy Herc multiple times, given even Caliburn could?

I'm saying that we would expect OG Caladbolg to do the same vs. Rank A dura servants and that scaling A+/A++ phantasms to servant dura doesn't make sense via what you just said?

So I agree with you?

You mean like Gae Bolg, who can insta-kill the strongest character of Earth, by word of god?
Or Stella, that created a ******* river long enough to be a country border?
Or Kid Child Gate of Babylon, who can basically mini carpet bomb with Rank A treasures
Phoebus, from Atalanta?
Melammu Dingir?

Gae Bolg ignores durability if you fail his luck vibe check, also we're talking about anti-army/fortress phantasms
Isn't there a whole thing about servants being stronger in life than they are as servants. I'd imagine that Living!Arash's Stella would be ranked up from his normal NP, especially considering that it goes up to A after his in-game rank up.
I mean, you basically explain yourself that Gate of Babylon just facilitates him spamming Rank A treasures, it's not like he's slapping his enemies with the gates themselves.
You mean the same Phoebus whose arrows are blocked by servants regularly
See Kid Gil above for Melammu Dingir if you're talking about what it fires

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i don't know how relevant this is, but isn't one example of C-rank NP's being dogshet Bedievre Switch On Airgetlam? or is it because he never used it at full power until that one scene?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Okay. I guess Excalibur Morgan fodderizing Herc was just PIS.

And he still resurrected. But according to your position it should have taken hundreds of lives.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And he still resurrected. But according to your position it should have taken hundreds of lives.

I'm just against the position that Morgan and comparable NPs wouldn't have yeeted a single life and would have just reduced him to a "greatly harmed by still alive" state.

But alright.

 

[LehenDuo]

i don't know how relevant this is, but isn't one example of C-rank NP's being dogshet Bedievre Switch On Airgetlam? or is it because he never used it at full power until that one scene?

Isn't the Rank C Airgetlam the continuously-active one that makes Bedivere a saber-class fighter (as in, his parameters)? I remember there's something like that going on for him, but can't remember exactly.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Isn't the Rank C Airgetlam the continuously-active one that makes Bedivere a saber-class fighter (as in, his parameters)? I remember there's something like that going on for him, but can't remember exactly.

the description has both Dead End, and Switch On but it doesn't clarify if there is a significant difference in rank or power from what i can see. Just one is anti-personnel and the other is Anti-army. but i don't remember the scenes very well. i been Fate/Grand Order burnt out.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And that we see C/B phantasms accomplish insta-killing a servant way less often, see Mordred + Blasted Tree and Salter + Crane Realm

My issue with this is that "lethal damage" and "one shot" is not so far off that it would justify a difference in the dozens of times. I emphasized on Arash and Karna for a reason - they have powerful defensive abilities, but they don't, again, reach in the area of dozens of times. Contrast and compare Mordred and Arash, both of who have very high durability - she took a B rank NP (though not the majority of it) and Arash took an A rank one. Both were severely wounded, but the difference is made up for the fact that she evaded some of the payload and he has a powerful defensive skill, but still shouldn't be as powerful as Kavacha and Kundala.

NP are obviously above Servants, I feel like the point is being argued like I didn't already say this, but not by orders of magnitude. Or is that really so unbelievable that Karna can take Balmung to the face while it is at 10% of it's power, but getting the equivalent of a 10x boost is enough to one shot?

Meanwhile B and C ranked phantasms have a lot more trouble putting down a servant for good.

Like, this line right here - I feel a much farther distance is being put between "lethal wounds" and "one shot" than there should be.

Also-

Ranks are mostly arbitrary and aren't supposed to relate the physical power of Noble Phantasms, firstly.

Yeah, no, this is genuine bullshit Dargoo. Never gonna agree with this.

Some NPs have a rank that has nothing to do with their destructive yield, we have known this since Gae Bolg's two firing modes existed, but I really don't see the lack of consistency except for few cases. You may find it peculiar that the one that tends to have the most inconsistencies is FGO, both by share number of written material but lacking the detail when stuff is actually written like in the LNs and the VNs, and even then it stays consistent much more than it goes into inconsistency, even when there's multiple writers doing this shit.

Same shit happens in Extella. The moment they actually stop using writing to explain any intricacies because you are mostly doing gameplay and the writing is short as hell, or has nothing to do with the battles,, it is explained away in the shortest "send Lu Bu to Gawain, he can take in him NotS" and no other information whatsoever. Every single damn time shit like this happens, is when they are not putting any additional information and just giving broad strokes. The only one that comes to mind when they actually describe stuff is "Balmung comparing to Vasavi Shakti" which is genuine bull.

Like, try that with Assassin against Cu. "Yes sir, Cu killed Lancer off screen after we sent him, not an injury on him". It suddenly starts sounding a lot more different than the actual fight scene with all the actual nuance.

 

[LehenDuo]

The only one that comes to mind when they actually describe stuff is "Balmung comparing to Vasavi Shakti" which is genuine bull.

Balmung was command seal-boosted (and using Galvanism), wasn't it?
And Vasavi Shakti is theoretically not an all-purpose, but an anti-divinity. (even though it is bullshit reincarnated as an NP, after Ea)
I mean, Excalibur could compare to Ea while not CS boosted.

Though I would agree both Excalibur matching Ea and Balmung matching VS are awkward moments.

And on the point of NPs vs normal attacks, yeah, definitely. I would also argue most servants are glass cannons, also, especially the unarmored ones.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl no idea if this tag will work, but it wouldn't let me quote just your name lol

would the mechanics of Armor of Fafnir help with your point using this line?

Armor of Fafnir
#
report error
noble phantasm
Blood Armor of the Evil Dragon. The continuously active Noble Phantasm of Saber of “Black,” Siegfried. Negates all attacks of B rank and below.
When receiving regular A rank attacks, the armor’s defensive rank of B will be subtracted from the attack’s offensive rank of A… in other words, it will be reduced to effectively an E rank attack, but in the case of an attack by a Noble Phantasm, the armor’s defensive value will rise to the rank of B+ However, this additional defensive value will not be included in the attack calculations should the enemy use a Noble Phantasm or skill that has the properties of an Anti-Dragon special attack. Furthermore, the B+ defensive value is only applicable when he is attacked while defenceless, and the armor’s defense will be further reduced should he take defensive action with “Balmung: Phantasmal Greatsword.” When he goes all out in a defensive battle, Siegfried is effectively a moving fortress.
However, since the effects of this armor do not apply to the single spot on Siegfried’s back that was covered by the leaf of a lime tree, it becomes extremely difficult for him to be healed with healing magecraft if he is wounded there even once.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

NP are obviously above Servants, I feel like the point is being argued like I didn't already say this, but not by orders of magnitude. Or is that really so unbelievable that Karna can take Balmung to the face while it is at 10% of it's power, but getting the equivalent of a 10x boost is enough to one shot?

Well, Karna didn't really tank Balmung to the face to begin with and was using mana burst + his armor among other attacks to buffer it by some unknown amount.

Every attack was met by its opposite, entwining together and scattering into sparks. The
pinnacles of swordsmen and spearmen continued their struggle for dominance.

The superiority of Lancer's technique exceeded Saber's by a slight degree, but Saber was tougher
in body. All things considered, they were more or less an even match in strength. A moment's
carelessness could lead to a pierced heart or severed head.

Anyone would be hard-pressed to tell who had the upper hand, but there was the matter of
Gordes. Due to the healing thaumaturgy of his Master, Saber could always recover from damage.
However, Lancer’s own ability to recover was also considerable, even by himself. He must be
powerfully bound to his Master and supplied by substantial prana.

The clang of clashing steel rang out for over the ten thousandth time.

They were covered by over a thousand light, recovering wounds.

It's not really unbelievable when the calculated difference between the best feats servants put out w/out phantasms (herc mountain busting, karna melting stuff) and feats from A-rank phantasms (caladabolg and excalibur) are actually OOMs apart.

Yeah, no, this is genuine bullshit Dargoo. Never gonna agree with this.

oof, ok

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Armor of Fafnir reduces power using ranks, so it is not usable without a defined, rock solid value for ranks. But I guess it does reinforce the fact that the difference between ranks shouldn't be, and hasn't been shown, to be that massive.

And Vasavi Shakti is theoretically not an all-purpose, but an anti-divinity. (even though it is bullshit reincarnated as an NP, after Ea)

The translated wording from Volume 5 of Apocrypha would seem to disagree. It goes something like "since this thing can kill Gods, everything else is equally powerless and equally dead after it is hit by it, as an all powerful armament yadda yadda". It outright mentions Divine Beasts would fall to it as well as a matter of fact.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Armor of Fafnir reduces power using ranks, so it is not usable without a defined, rock solid value for ranks. But I guess it does reinforce the fact that the difference between ranks shouldn't be, and hasn't been shown, to be that massive.

Yes, this is what i was trying to show. That they are likely not tens of times greater.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Well, Karna didn't really tank Balmung to the face to begin with and was using mana burst + his armor among other attacks to buffer it by some unknown amount.

Mana Burst is the exact same thing Saber uses to boost herself, defense included, and she still gets hurt by someone comparable, if not outright trashed by Heracles. Unless we wanna state now Mana Burst (Fire) is superior in this regard. Of course, I can't refute the use of Mana Burst flame until my friend can tell me about the Volume 5 raws, which is annoying.

It's not really unbelievable when the calculated difference between the best feats servants put out w/out phantasms (herc mountain busting, karna melting stuff) and feats from A-rank phantasms (caladabolg and excalibur) are actually OOMs apart.

But it is kinda unbelievable when all I mentioned above only reinforces the fact that the difference is not nearly as drastic as you make it sound. Even Shirou can fight until his bones are showing, so them still being able to fight despite "lethal wounds" doesn't really indicate the difference between "lethal wound" and "one shot" is massive. Unless you deal some really terrible damage, you are not stopping a Servant that isn't low on mana but doesn't have enough damage to their core.

Edit: I do agree the fact that feats from Servants go only that far is a pretty good counter, but it just doesn't seem enough to me, which is why shit like Likely and Possibly exist, I presume. I am just not personally convinced 6-C is dispelled enough to disregard it.

oof, ok

Sorry but it's true. Every time I try to ask for ranks not making sense, it tends to be shit from FGO or Extella which is spoken in generalities without any added context. And if you apply that to a lot of other battles in Fate that are actually well explained, they start sounding dumb as well if you just give a basic, passing overview.

That said, apologies for sounding that rude. Some other stuff has me on the stressed side of things and I should have controlled myself better.

 

[LehenDuo]

The translated wording from Volume 5 of Apocrypha would seem to disagree. It goes something like "since this thing can kill Gods, everything else is equally powerless and equally dead after it is hit by it, as an all powerful armament yadda yadda". It outright mentions Divine Beasts would fall to it as well as a matter of fact.

Well, half of bullshit is still bullshit, yeah, but VS is still technically a specialized NP - but the point I wanted to reinforce is the proportion: Balmung comparing to VS isn't really all that much more bullshit than Excalibur comparing to Ea. If anything, Balmung is less weird because of Sieg going shonen anime protagonist ''even if it kills me, I won't lose'' + having Galvanism.

• Vasavi Shakti: O Sun, Abide to Death

An one-shot only spear of light that takes down even gods. A spear of mortality made out of lightning. When Indra snatched away the golden armor, since Karna's posture was much too noble, he thought that it had to be rewarded. Manifested by converting the golden armor, in exchange of a tremendous defensive power, a spear with a powerful "anti-god" performance is equipped.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, is the Ea one really that bullshit? Excalibur only really sorta compares to the blast, while its ranking and power derive more from the after effect, which can't really have an AP. And even then, that would be disregarding any EXTRA power it gains from Gilgamesh's treasury size, which is a thing too.

The god-killing spear [O Sun, Abide by Death]. Its power is surely sufficient to kill gods. Therefore, Heroes are a matter of course; Magical Beasts, Phantasmal Beasts, Divine Beasts, Shields, Fortresses, Bounded Fields, every single existence is equally meaningless."

Granted, I can only speculate without the actual japanese, but couldn't that line be taken as "Anti-God level of performance"? Since God is supposed to be the upper line of bullshit. Like Caenis' limited reproduction of a small fraction of Poseidon's Authority still being as powerful as an EX Rank Anti-Fortress NP.

 

[LehenDuo]

I mean, is the Ea one really that bullshit? Excalibur only really sorta compares to the blast, while its ranking and power derive more from the after effect, which can't really have an AP. And even then, that would be disregarding any EXTRA power it gains from Gilgamesh's treasury size, which is a thing too.

Granted, I can only speculate without the actual japanese, but couldn't that line be taken as "Anti-God level of performance"? Since God is supposed to be the upper line of bullshit. Like Caenis' limited reproduction of a small fraction of Poseidon's Authority still being as powerful as an EX Rank Anti-Fortress NP.

It's 対神, taishin, which is the same kanji for the Anti-Divine/God-type of Noble Phantasm, which VShakti has (at least it's Apo version, the Extra version is different IIRC) - but I guess it could be taken as a level of power now that you mentioned it. One argument against it, however, is that Enkidu (the chains) use the same kanji when describing it's effect. But can't say it wouldn't make sense to see Anti-God as a ''above Anti-Fortress''-type of thing.

About Ea, it's the reason Gilgamesh is THE strongest servant, so I would argue that yes, it is bullshit, but I'm a simp for Gil, so my opinion in this isn't exactly unbiased I guess XD

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

A simp that knows his ways is more honorable than a blind one :V

I guess is like the difference between Ea and Elementary, My Dear. One has such a tier because its level of power is on that dimension, while the other has to do with literally ******* with the specific thing in question and has nothing to do with destructive power (maybe? I do agree it is sadly vague enough that it is hard to say).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Mana Burst is the exact same thing Saber uses to boost herself, defense included, and she still gets hurt by someone comparable, if not outright trashed by Heracles. Unless we wanna state now Mana Burst (Fire) is superior in this regard. Of course, I can't refute the use of Mana Burst flame until my friend can tell me about the Volume 5 raws, which is annoying.

No I mean like, Karna was also using his NPs, of which he has many that would clash equally with Balmung, to buffer the attack. With Mana Burst (Fire). I don't think it's fair to say he took even a fraction of Balmung to the face.

That and Karna has an objectively better defensive skill than Saber and it could be argued that mana-bursting it would be something OOMs above what Saber could do, especially considering Shirou's mana vs. Amakusa's mana.

Even Shirou can fight until his bones are showing, so them still being able to fight despite "lethal wounds" doesn't really indicate the difference between "lethal wound" and "one shot" is massive. Unless you deal some really terrible damage, you are not stopping a Servant that isn't low on mana but doesn't have enough damage to their core.

I feel like we're getting into murky territory here. A lot of the time, fiction doesn't really realize that "OOMs stronger" usually means "vaporize on contact" (granted we actually have scans saying an NP like Excalibur Morgan would straight-up vaporize Rider on contact so there' that too) and typically goes for the route of "brutally injured and taken out of the fight in a single hit". And a lot of the times we see servants do something like withstand an NP it's based on special circumstances (Karna with various NPs + mana burst, Mordred with a command seal, Arash with his special defensive skill).

That said, apologies for sounding that rude. Some other stuff has me on the stressed side of things and I should have controlled myself better.

It's fine. I just don't have the energy in me to have a discussion on consistency in Fate and could see you had more experience in the topic.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The one that used NPs to buffer attacks was Siegfried as far as I remember, both in the anime and in the Light Novel (to my knowledge, so take this with a pinch of salt). Sieg was the one spamming his NP for attack or defense, as he had that capacity, while Karna simply took the blows when he himself wasn't attacking.

The issue with the Mana Burst argument, is that Vasavi only turns the attack weaker. Karna THEN has to tank said attack with his normal dura. And we have already seen what kind of Dura to expect because besides being flames pretty much, his should have no different defensive properties from Arthuria's, who uses hers constantly to be able to fight at all. Mordred also uses hers all the time. They are pretty damn durable with a proper Master, but not beyond Servant levels of durability (I also checked the discussion thread for Apocrypha on Beast Lair, and if I can take You at his word, he did use Mana Burst but took practically no damage. I'll check more of it to make sure though). There's an actual purely defense focused Mana Burst and that's Mash's.

(Karna with various NPs + mana burst, Mordred with a command seal, Arash with his special defensive skill)

The issue is that when you check the hard details of those "special" circumstances, they do not excuse the idea that Servants are far below NPs that are around this level (A/A+ Rank Anti Armies I mean). Arash's skill is not gonna be more defensively powerful than Kavacha and Kundala so even if the attack is reduced is not by dozens of times, the Karna thing I already responded to above, and in the LN, Kairi's Command Seal teleported Mordred outside of the attack range, while Caules' bent causality to pursue Mordred. Mordred didn't get any more durable, and Fran's NP didn't get stronger, as per the narration of the very story, because all the magical energy got wasted altering Blasted Tree to pursue Mordred. The majority got her, but she still seems to have evaded some of it.

Plus, the only NPs that normally outright DELET Servants are the ones at the top of the scale, like Excalibur. Excalibur gets dropped around here a metric ton, but I feel people forget how ridiculous the thing really is and above most of the NPs we tend to discuss.

As a reminder, only Saber could do anything to the horror Caster summoned in Zero besides Gilgamesh, and it got deleted to the last scrap. Rider's Pegasus was on the level of a dragon, with defense and magical resistance far superior to Saber, deleted. The Divine Bulls of Via Expugnatio create thunder with as much energy as a full power blow of Saber casually, deleted. What kind of NP is consistently shown outmuscling it? Ea of all damn things. It's literally been shown to just go "lol nope" on NPs of the level we are discussing here, it's not a really good measuring stick to judge these. Plus, Excalibur does have the whole "heat" thing as well besides the pure AP, so there's that.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The one that used NPs to buffer attacks was Siegfried as far as I remember, both in the anime and in the Light Novel (to my knowledge, so take this with a pinch of salt). Sieg was the one spamming his NP for attack or defense, as he had that capacity, while Karna simply took the blows when he himself wasn't attacking.

Well, I re-read the first fight between the two and there isn't anything that strikes me as Karna getting a Balmung to the face. I'll need to re-read Sieg's fight with him too but finding TLs for that is a massive pain in the ass.

is that Vasavi only turns the attack weaker. Karna THEN has to tank said attack with his normal dura.

I was kind of under the impression it also acted as a normal set of magical armor, i.e. like Gilgamesh's. It'd find it kind of weird that the only difference between Karna w/Vasavi and Karna bare-chested it is the damage reduction effect.

Plus, the only NPs that normally outright DELET Servants are the ones at the top of the scale, like Excalibur. Excalibur gets dropped around here a metric ton, but I feel people forget how ridiculous the thing really is and above most of the NPs we tend to discuss.

I mean, isn't the whole point of this discussion scaling a calc value for Caladabolg to servant physicals? Which is an anti-fortress/army NP with the same rank as Excalibur? The same NP that one-shot Rider with shitty mana and would have vaporized her in an instant with great mana? Excalibur is ridiculous, yes, but I feel like we're forgetting how nutty OG Caladabolg is too, here.

 

[LehenDuo]

Well, I re-read the first fight between the two and there isn't anything that strikes me as Karna getting a Balmung to the face. I'll need to re-read Sieg's fight with him too but finding TLs for that is a massive pain in the ass.

It's in the Sieg fight he tanks Balmung.

I mean, isn't the whole point of this discussion scaling a calc value for Caladabolg to servant physicals?...

Caladbolg is the same as Balmung, Rank A+ Anti-Army (Caladbolg upgrades to A++ and Balmung upgrades to EX in FGO), so a comparison between the two is probably the closest we can do.
I wouldn't compare them to Excalibur exactly because Excalibur is special even among Divine Constructs, Anti-Fortress and has a special place in lore about being the sword that can kill Velber and etc.

I guess is like the difference between Ea and Elementary, My Dear. One has such a tier because its level of power is on that dimension...

I always interpreted Elementary, My Dear being Anti-World as a reference to its ''Reality Warping''-like abilities, as described in the description:

Even if the enigma he faces is truly an existence that cannot be explained, clues and paths for reaching the truth will always “appear”. Even if there was a treasure chest whose key has been lost, said key will turn out to be “not lost”, and would certainly be possible to locate it somewhere in the world.
(However, as expected, it will not suddenly appear in his hands. Either Holmes or his collaborators must find it, wherever it may be).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It's in the Sieg fight he tanks Balmung.

Fun. I'll get back to you guys on that one when I manage to locate the TLs for that fight. Granted Lancelot is saying his info is from Beast's Lair, which is fairly reliable as a TL source, so I'll take his word for it until then.

I wouldn't compare them to Excalibur exactly because Excalibur is special even among Divine Constructs, Anti-Fortress and has a special place in lore about being the sword that can kill Velber and etc.

Excalibur's usage vs. Velbers is it's own thing separate from normal usage of it, though. We have an entirely different key for that, heck.

We already draw comparisons between anti-army and anti-fortification NPs on the profiles as it is, though. Just for Caladabolg, it's scaled above Excalibur Galantine via being a prototype of it, which is backscaled from Excalibur slightly.

 

[LehenDuo]

Fun. I'll get back to you guys on that one when I manage to locate the TLs for that fight. Granted Lancelot is saying his info is from Beast's Lair, which is fairly reliable as a TL source, so I'll take his word for it until then.

I don't know if there are any translations of the LN for that fight, because it was in Volume 5, and the guys who were originally translating divided the work and one of them didn't keep up. Will see if I can find anything in BL.

We already draw comparisons between anti-army and anti-fortification NPs on the profiles as it is, though. Just for Caladabolg, it's scaled above Excalibur Galantine via being a prototype of it, which is backscaled from Excalibur slightly.

Speaking about Galantine, was the 13km explosion radius ever used to calculate its output?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

so I'll take his word for it until then.

Let me find the bit again in the Apocrypha discussion thread and I'll just link it after I am done with breakfast. You basically says that he first just Prana Bursts and takes the attack to the face, then throws Brahmastra Kundala at it. Then he gets impatient and pulls out Vasavi Shakti because he realized Sieg would just go ahead and keep spamming his options until the end of time. Not ideal for Karna, because he had a promise from Fiore about her helping with the trapped Masters. If Karna won before Sieg de-transformed in 3 minutes, she'd help. Unlike the Atalanta and Achilles fight, the anime was apparently pretty faithful to it, and in it you do see Karna eating the attack to the face.

We already draw comparisons between anti-army and anti-fortification NPs on the profiles as it is, though

I have never personally endorsed such comparisons beyond saying that the Anti-Fortress ones should be stronger, if of similar or higher rank.

Excalibur consistently pretty much erases shit on the level of powerful Anti-Army NPs even when Saber is weakened, and most other NPs don't just ERASE stuff. If it happens, it tends to be because the spirit core of the Servant got completely broken, which normally makes them dissipate in short seconds.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Speaking about Galantine, was the 13km explosion radius ever used to calculate its output?

I believe so? Wouldn't give anything very good. The idea was passed that maybe if the flames compared to the hotter ones of the Sun since Galatine uses the artificial sun inside of it as a power generator, but since we don't know the heat in the slightest it is speculation at best and not very solid.

And if Surtr of all people can only reach 4 million Celsius with his special sword, Gawain reaching Sun Core levels of heat turns... doubtful. But like has been mentioned, perhaps the massive hole left in Last Encore could give something good.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That aside, due to how Caladabolg works, wouldn't what it did to the Argatha Singularity be more on the line of hax applied at a range (spatial warping) rather than a direct destructive feat?

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah caladabolg ignores dura through spatial Manip, that’s not AP

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Okay, so that nukes that calc.

Which leaves, eh, what for the 6-C and High 6-C rating, if both the Rhongo and Caladabolg calcs are not being used?

 

[LehenDuo]

That's Caladbolg II, not Caladbolg.
And it's questionable to call it Ignore Durability because Herakles cut the arrow with his axe-sword, if it just ignored dura it would go through it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It'd be kind of weird for that to be something EMIYA tacked on and not a property of the real sword. I don't think EMIYA's projection magecraft + reinforcement would be able to completely change how a weapon works like that.

 

[LehenDuo]

User: Archer
Caladbolg is the demonic sword wielded by the Irish hero Fergus mac Róich in Celtic mythology. The version that Archer projects has been altered to improve its function as an arrow.

And in Reinforcement, there's Alteration.

Calabolg II: Fake Fake Spiral Sword: Unknown Rank
Deteriorated version of the altered original Calabolg. Although it is stronger when the true name is released and fired. In that case it also twists space piercing everything.

But again, to call it Spatial Manipulation as if the power itself dealt with space =/= spins/so strong that it twists space by existing. Either way, if it trully ignored durability, it wouldn't have been cut by Herakles.

Let me remind you Kanshou and Bakuya aren't real either and Rho Aias isn't even an weapon nor shield, but his own body + conceptual field, so UBW gets away with a lot of things that aren't exactly ''expected''. Even Hrunting has a ''auto-lock mechanism'' that makes no sense given the original.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But again, to call it Spatial Manipulation as if the power itself dealt with space =/= spins/so strong that it twists space by existing. Either way, if it trully ignored durability, it wouldn't have been cut by Herakles.

I always interpreted that as Herc having enough magic resistance to shrug off spatial warping much like Archer could break out of frozen space.

Fair on the rest though.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, the original does have that thingy about "taking the optimal path" when it is swung and being able to sniff blood.

Archer is just doing what Shirou did when he turned a bunch of branches into an actual bow and competent arrows, Altering things to fashion them with traits they didn't have or alterations based on what they already do to suit his style (sniping like a mother ******). He just does it much better because he is using ancient and powerful artifacts and he is, you know, actually competent.