Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, so the current 6-C rating that all of the Servants scale to is completely nonsensical, it comes from randomly scaling the Servants to 1/5 the rating of the High 6-C Lion King calc, because Gawain barely survived it and being 1/5 as strong as it is apparently valid, but it's not, the best we can do is scale the characters back to Baseline High 6-C off of that feat, but since the Lion King is a Divine Spirit and is above the regular servant, it makes no sense to fully scale every single servant to that calc, so we need some options

Berserker's Phyiscal strikes are stated to be able to destroy mountains and the calc been accepted as Low 7-B

Apparently it was said that the Caster Class Card has the power to destroy Fuyuki City, which was calced and accepted as 7-B

Pretty much everyone in Fate Stay Night can match and clash with Berserker's strikes, it's even said in Archer and Shirou's battle that Archer strikes him with an attack that is as strong as Berserker's strikes, so that's a good baseline for all of the Base Servant's physical stats, but since Gawain did survive the Lion King's High 6-C attack, then we should be able to give them a possibly rating back to Baseline High 6-C, I have no idea how valid the destroying Fuyuki City feat is, but if it's legit with her standard attacks, then that may also work for scaling, so the ratings we would scale to every servant would be...

"At least Low 7-B, possibly High 6-C" (At least 1.45 Megatons, possibly 100 Gigatons)

or...

"At least 7-B, possibly High 6-C" (At least 10.7 Megatons, possibly 100 Gigatons)

Another possibility for scaling Servants is that we know Overloaded Caliburn managed to kill Berserker 7 times, so if we want to highball and say that one of his lives could have survived 1/8 of the magical energy and would therefore scale to 1/8 of a Noble Phantasm, then that's a possibility as well

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree 100% with the OP and I planned on addressing the 6-C nonsense myself but you hit the nail on the head with this one.



Although I also have issues with High 6-C as that produces lot of inconsistencies. Gawain barely survived the attack, his durability shouldn't scale.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

Agreed that they shouldn't scale from Lion King, following the thread.

 

[Ionliosite]

I personally would scale them to the 7-B end, Medea isn't very strong, so her having a feat on that scale would be suitable to scale other Servants to.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I agree as well

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I wish we had a better option, but I may need to agree here. I wish we had a method to get an exact value below High 6-C that gawain is, but if we don't then that's our only option here. I do not have time to argue, but I'll give my support in the understanding that I may change that later.

The tier range is a good compromise. I would have disagreed if we just dropped tier 6 outright

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Btw, since the High 6-C from Excalibur comes from x7 Herc, Morgan has another feat that may be useful for this. Namely, it's above the Bennu asteroid, as can be seen in Shinjuku when her attack destroyed it as it was falling. If you divide it by 7, since that's the multiplier used for killing Herc, you get 172 megatons, aka mountain level.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My stance is the same as always.

The scaling to High 6-C should remain as a likely. The only thing saying Gawain "barely survived", after I took a closer look, is basically the goddamn dumb wikia that is only good for references. Nothing indicates Gawain barely survived, or got nearly killed, he's even completely fine the next time we see him even though nobody would try to heal him as it was the punishment given by the Lion King. So again, Likely should be kept.

I don't wanna use anything Prillya related if it can be helped at all, but meh, Low 7-B and 7-B work.

That said, you shouldn't use Shirou's narration at all, that is most likely an hyperbole. Any Servant not on Berserker's level should downscale from him. This is an Archer that was left with little energy after blocking Lancer's Gae Bolg, got none from Caster obviously and then killed her, and after that roamed for like a day without a master. Even if he can remain around for 2 days easily, he was so spent from magical energy that there is no way he was at his peak. Saber overpowered a Lancer that was holding back, while Archer was mostly equal even while having a proper supply of mana from Rin, and that same Saber gets her ass handed to her and almost killed against Berserker except when she uses the graveyard to her advantage, so by no means should every Servant be directly comparable to Heracles, much less Archer.

 

[LordGinSama]

The jump from 7-B to High 6-C is a pretty big jump in tier, any reason to assume the latter isn't an outlier when tier 7 is a lot more consistent with the rest of the verse? Like that's a gap that's quite literally thousands of times higher than 7-B. Having every Servant be High 6-C seems odd wherever a lot of them aren't portrayed as nearly that strong.



Could I also see the scans for the Gawain stuff? I'm seeing some claims but no citation.



Edit: Also apparently surface area is to taken into consideration since this was the argument used for Jack from One Piece not scaling fully to 6-C since the trunk that struck him was kilometers in comparison to his much smaller surface area. I don't 100% agree with this reason but it's worth noting.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"The jump from 7-B to High 6-C is a pretty big jump in tier"

This isn't really valid as there are many profiles that huge jumps from a certain rating and possibly rating, I've seen many "6-B, possibly 5-B", "4-A, possibly 2-C"'s and many many more profiles that have huge jumps like that, I mean some jumps between a certain and possibly rating are effectively infinite AP wise, so that's not a good reason to get rid of the possibly High 6-C

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The actual scene. Gawain is blasted out of the city, but Mordred clearly says he survives. Nothing more is said in anything else I can find, beyond the fact that he's perfectly okay when we next see him. But if I missed a scene, I'd like to know which.

A pretty big tier jump doesn't matter if there's a solid feat to scale from and no real anti feats. Not to mention direct comparison from Nasu that a C rank NP is comparable to an A/A+ Rank normal attack, and then pretty consistent A Rank NPs with tier 6 stuff (Attila destroying Rome, Santa Quetz's being compared to the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, Ishtar destroying Connacht with Gugalunna, Shuten's NP burning a whole province of Japan despite its main feature being inflicting Status Debuffs and not dealing damage), so unless C and A is a difference of hundreds of times....

Of course, I don't think they should all be the exact same AP purely on rank, but they should be close for sure.

 

[LordGinSama]

No I meant as in the calc itself being the outlier and scaling that to them. The profiles like that are usually arbitrary, since the feats they scale to is usually a singular feat that can be interpreted as let's say 7-A or Low 2-C.


This is a different cases since they'd be scaling to two calcs, with one being immensely higher than the other.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Arash's NP was used to deflect an attack from the Lion King that was meant to kill (iirc) 7 Servants at once. he succeeded in saving everyone's life, but you should know how his NP works lol

Anyways, I agree with LSirLancelotDuLac's stuff

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You are free to show how many profiles really are an "arbitrary singular feat" that can have such differences.

Also, this is the literal definition in the attack potency area:

"Likely​

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable.

Possibly​

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

Under such circumstances, I really have no clue why them having a Likely or Possibly is such an issue.

Just as an example of what I mean, Manhattan's page. First is due to being able Mister fuck his name, second is from being made of an energy implied to be the direct opposite and equal to the energy of Perpetua, two different things entirely.

Scarlet King, main tier for fucking around with creation, possible one for affecting one thing in specific, so only one feat to boot.

I can link the Primordials from God of War, who have 3-A for the creation of the universe and Possibly Low 2-C from Cronos who created time, then 2-C from comparing to Old Kratos doing shit over with the Norse dudes.

So unless these are all wrong, which you are free to prove, nah there are many that aren't a singular feat and this ain't a rule of any sort.

 

[LordGinSama]

Are there any feats within the tier 6 range? What I'm arguing is an issue of consistency, most of the calcs I've seen in the verse barely breach 7-A, none of the several calcs are remotely close to 6-C so it seems odd to scale them to much, much higher feats than what most of the verse has. If there are other feats to support that rating I'm fine with it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Are there any feats within the tier 6 range? What I'm arguing is an issue of consistency, most of the calcs I've seen in the verse barely breach 7-A, none of the several calcs are remotely close to 6-C so it seems odd to scale them to much, much higher feats than what most of the verse has. If there are other feats to support that rating I'm fine with it.

Base stats such as physical strength? Not that I am aware of except Gawain scaling


the strength level of Noble Phantasms have a lot https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3695412

 

[John985]

>Are there any feats within the tier 6 range?
Bennu country lvl
Laputa
Rome

 

[Ionliosite]

The Rome feat is from a NP, so not valid to the question.

 

[John985]

Well, he ask for a feat in tier 6 range.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My point was simply that Noble Phantasms are totally superior to Servants, but it has never been implied that it is by literal orders of magnitude. The fact some of the more resilient Servants can still survive some NPs is just further proof of it.

Or Siegfried doing the same when he downgrades the power of most to like E rank. Unless, again, there is a difference of hundreds of times between NP Ranks, it makes no sense. Or Karna, who took Balmung to the face when bolstered by his flames.

 

[Ionliosite]

No, he asked for feats performed by the Servants themselves, not NPs. Context exists.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, what about characters who use their phsyical strength for their noble phantasm? I may not be knowledgeable on some of these characters though so there maybe context that explains it

For example Caster Xuanzang Sanzang

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I added context, that NPs are in that range and Servants can survive some of the weaker ones, or stronger ones if they have very strong defenses.

But unless those are in the orders of magnitudes stronger, it makes no sense.

Edit: That's a boost above their normal AP, so still not applicable.

 

[Ionliosite]

That's still a NP, Noble Phantasms are a Servants' strongest attack, their regular stats shouldn't scale to them.

 

[John985]

No, he asked for feats performed by the Servants themselves, not NPs. Context exists.

He wasn't clear on that, that's why TheUnshakableOne ask the question if its physical or NP.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Ionliosite "Noble Phantasms are a Servants' strongest attack"

Medea would like to know your location

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"it shouldn't scale to them"

If you aren't even trying to read what I write, don't act like you did. Karna's armor reduces attacks by 90%. If Servants are hundreds of times under their NP, that doesn't make sense. If ranks don't have dozens of times difference in AP between ranks, Siegfried's defense wouldn't do shit to most NPs.

But they do. Yet you keep wording it like I am saying they scale to their full yield. Not even addressing the point that possibly can be used even if the feat is above the first tier. I literally linked 3 examples above of profiles using possibly with entirely different feats.

 

[LordGinSama]

Ah yeah NP's shouldn't scale to the pshycial stats of Servants, especially the enegry based ones, also I'm not sure how consistent it is for characters in the verse being able to take or endure NP's, which are typically beyond anything Servants can do typically.


Some Servants are naturally more durable than others. From what I'm seeing Servant's for the most part shouldn't scale physically from their NP's, as it's seen as an ultimate attack where Servants are capable of doing shit they typically aren't able to do normally. Scaling them to or down from their NP's kinda defeats the purpose of it being their trump cards. I'm fine with a "possibly" for them but I'm still not fully sold on that argument and that won't change.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Here's Ishtar creating a storm, clearly through KE too since the storm clouds were approaching.

Also, while we are here can we fix Servant's LS? Asterios carries Drake's ship, which weights over 1000 tons, and Quetz lifted and backdropped the big bull, which is a Class T feat.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"NP shouldn't scale, let me disregard pretty much everything said beyond this one point".

Well, obviously we would never reach an agreement with this way of addressing things.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

That's still a NP, Noble Phantasms are a Servants' strongest attack, their regular stats shouldn't scale to them.

This is also only true half the time. See: Arash's arrows destroying the walls of Ozymadias's temples, which completely tank your average anti-army noble phantasm and Holmes's martial arts being able to hit with the force of a noble phantasm.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah, a feat being preformed by an NP doesn't mean it can't be used for scaling, especially since we see that NP's don't just automatically delete any servant they touch, and can be survived.

Things like the Bennu calc would be able to scale, because, despite Excalibur being her "strongest attack" it is, surprise, not an instant deletion to every servant. There are things like backscaling Herc off it for instance, which can then scale to those who directly hurt him.

The argument of "an NP shouldn't scale because its their strongest attack" doesn't make sense for a fair few. The aforementioned Excalibur which doesn't instantly kill all the time, and other beam NPs which have that same limit, there are examples of people surviving or clashing against NPs in the series, saying that "they're the strongest attack" isn't grounds for then not scaling.

So if NPs have feats, and those NPs are able to scale to people, there's no issues with that

That said, Lancelot brought up a good point above, about Gawain not actually being said to be near death from the attack, and I'm not sure if that was really addressed much here.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Like, seriously, in what language do I have to talk to put it more clearly?

Siegfried weakens NP attacks, Karna does too, but not by hundreds of times. Karna's armor literally only divides their power by 10. Most tier 6 ratings for NPs remain tier 6 if divided by that amount.

And the issue of me bringing up pages that completely use a Possibly scaling derived from an entire different feat was never addressed. So what is the issue here? What consistency issues exist in using possibly here and not in the cases of those profiles?

And don't even start with "2 wrongs don't make a right", because then I'd really hope someone could explain what is wrong with those other profiles. If nothing is, what is wrong here?

Edit: I wouldn't use Excalibur as an arguing point though. The NP that killed Berserker 7 times was Caliburn, a degraded Caliburn used by Shirou and Saber when both were pretty tired and not at their best. It should scale to more powerful NPs, but not at all comparable to Excalibur.

 

[Ionliosite]

If you aren't even trying to read what I write, don't act like you did.

I didn't read anything you wrote, I was answering TheUnshakable, so sorry if I annoyed you somehow.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is alright. Is just that it was like my third time using that specific example but the only part that seemed to be pinpointed was "scaling people to NPs".

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I think he's talking to Gin.

This thread, as expected, is kind of a hot mess.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Also, while we are here can we fix Servant's LS? Asterios carries Drake's ship, which weights over 1000 tons, and Quetz lifted and backdropped the big bull, which is a Class T feat.

Quetz did that while she still had some of her divinity, so I am not sure at all about scaling that to normal Servants.

But there was also that feat of Alcides sending a bunch of rocks flying so hard it looked like an eruption after being punched straight into a mountain.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It is not scaling to the Lion King or a serious Divine Spirit... it is scaling to the Lion King's casual attack which was made with the intention to kill. While the 1/5 multiplier is questionable, downscaling from a low-end High 6-C to 6-C is reasonable and leaves room for error. It has been demonstrated that with the exception of E Rank the higher ranks of Strength/Endurance/Speed are not overwhelmingly different, so it is not like we'll put most servants in different tiers to each other.

There is a collection of Tier 6 feats from the upgrade CRT

 

[LordGinSama]

I think he's talking to Gin.
)
This thread, as expected, is kind of a hot mess.

Nah this thread ain't shit lol, if you want a hot mess look at the HST threads, if you want a hot mess those are be found there son.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It could be a lot worse, that's true.

So my point remains the same. I've no issue scaling to Tier 7, but no Possibly or Likely tier 6 I won't agree with.

 

[Zoey_of_Scadrial]

I strongly agree with the downgrade. And I find both fair, though would lean towards the Low 7-B end, as it is a more direct statement of how strong a singular strike is.

Though I do find "possibly 6-C" to be iffy, but I dont flat out reject it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Would someone want to calc this? Karna's activation for his NP was melting things around Siegfried but he was able to withstand that power just fine. perhaps it could scale to his durability which could scale to physical strength feats?

 

[LordGinSama]

Striking strength probably shouldn't scale to their AP however, imo I think that's best kept as 7-A since they don't deal as much damage via physical attacks. Attack Potency and such is fair game but I don't think it's fair to say they can hit that hard under normal circumstances unless we wanna leave that section as "unknown. "



Also if something like Gawain "barely" surviving was a mistranslation such mistakes should be looked for in the other profiles.

 

[Paul_Frank]

With the points brought up about the statement of Gawain being "near death" not existing, and other tier 6 feats for NPs and such which can scale to physicals, I don't really see the grounds for the downgrade

That said, if one happens, there's really no reason to not have a tier range, as those other feats do in fact exist, and scale to people. So a likely or possibly 6-C or High 6-C depending on how far you decide to backscale using lionking, would make sense to me

 

[Zoey_of_Scadrial]

That looks Tier 7 range as well, albeit higher end.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not so much a mistranslation as more of a hearsay, which I tried to find the source of but couldn't find anything. The best I could get was the wiki which... is a big yikes and a big no.

But anyway, the only hard number we have is the Lion King's feat. Even if my point about Karna and Siegfried being able to take stronger NPs without dividing them by hundreds is true, there's only one feat.

Such being the case, I do agree that having the 6-C/High 6-C as a likely/possibly is generally better. The tier has backing, but is not cemented enough for my liking.

Also, after a closer look, I really don't think the Medea feat can be used. The mirror worlds get smaller the further Servants they catch, and you can even see in the shot where Illya's power awakens that the wall of the mirror world seems far too close to the river and the bridge. There's an entire city on that side of the bridge but I see no trace of it. Does another shot show if the mirror world extends that far?

So taking that into consideration, I agree with Zoey that Low 7-B seems better.

Edit: Striking strength should totally scale to their AP, wooot :V? At least for the Servants that actually fight mainly with close range weapons. Rin needed 5 gems aimed at Heracles' head to kill him once, and one of those gems can clash with one of Medea's spells which are A Rank.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Would someone want to calc this? Karna's activation for his NP was melting things around Siegfried but he was able to withstand that power just fine. perhaps it could scale to his durability which could scale to physical strength feats?

Siegfried being able stand just fine when everything else around him is melting might yield something that could support tier 7 physical stats. The Activation is like a warm up before the big blast isn't it?

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

If that's more reliable calc then I agree with Low 7-B. For A+ NPs, just multiply it by 7 for Caliburn killing Heracles 7 times at once.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Quetz did that while she still had some of her divinity, so I am not sure at all about scaling that to normal Servants.

But there was also that feat of Alcides sending a bunch of rocks flying so hard it looked like an eruption after being punched straight into a mountain.

I mean, to be fair every god servant has some divinity left on them but they are still like, somewhat comparable to each other. If it's iffy we can always put them at "Class blahblah likely Class T".

I do agree Alcides's feat should be calculated.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nah, there is a big number of NPs on that rank that do tier 6 shit, so I would say it is safe to scale them to that.

@CrimsonStarFallen I don't mean the divinity skill, I mean literal divinity, as in having Access to their Godly power beyond the smallest speck of it. Divine Servants can't wield that power, or their authority, without damaging or completely busting their core, so that shouldn't scale to normal Servants Quetz. Though likely is a possibility, I do admit. Though I wonder where is that guy that did Bazildot's profile and some other shit, I know he wanted to calc that feat. Perhaps he did and I just didn't find out.

Edit: As for the Karna thing, I imagine you could calc it and maybe scale it to Karna...? He is in the epicenter of it after all, and his armor is completely off. Servants also don't have some sort of special protection to their own NPs if they are just a big fuck off nuke.

Granted, the feat just doesn't interest me mucht, but I guess that's something you could try.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Edit: As for the Karna thing, I imagine you could calc it and maybe scale it to Karna...? He is in the epicenter of it after all, and his armor is completely off. Servants also don't have some sort of special protection to their own NPs if they are just a big fuck off nuke.

Granted, the feat just doesn't interest me mucht, but I guess that's something you could try.

Oh yeah i didn't think about that part


btw does Karna's armor not work for a short time after using his NP? Because if so he managed to take an attack from Gawains Excalibur Galatine in such a state. [[nvm on that last part. i just read the context. the attack should have been fatal but karna is trying to remain through sheer force of will]]

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I don't think that was any different from Servant Quetz tho? Forgive my memory since it's been so long since i played the event, but wasn't that Quetz in Servant form?

 

[John985]

From what I remember, it is servant Quetz.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It was the racing event, correct?

 

[John985]

Yeah summer 2.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Okay, then my memory was fucking me up. That was most likely Servant Quezt.

I'll try to check the event later still just to be sure.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Outside of the Lion King thing which it seems is largely fine, two other tier 6 physical feats that come to mind via NP scaling.

Herc technically suriving Excalibur Morgan in HF. Despite, well, losing, he was still alive, and it was noted that the shadow didn't fix his wounds from the Saber fight.

Herc surviving an A rank Broken Phantasm (Caladbolg) blowing up on him, these should still scale to tier 6, possibly backscaling off things like the Bennu or Laputa calc, by an unknown amount.

There are probably other examples, since there were a decent amount of feats shown in the thread linked before, for NPs, so you'd just need to find times that those NPs were blocked or something for more examples. Or, do what Nasu does, and consider certain attacks equivalent to NPs, which would also work for scaling, such as the case of Salter's mana bursts cleaving through Herc for instance, since they were equivalent to A rank attacks.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Fate/type Redline has Servants with D Rank Endurance being unbothered by a large explosion that decimated the center of Tokyo.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Fate/type Redline has Servants with D Rank Endurance being unbothered by a large explosion that decimated the center of Tokyo.

what chapter is that?

 

[Ionliosite]

(You people should have brought all these feats when Mitch asked for them before making the thread)

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

what chapter is that?

Very first one

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I haven't seen much of Redline, so I didn't think of that one.

As for Herc, I admit that I prefer not using stuff that he survives through his multiple lives. Caliburn took 7 lives, but then the stronger Morgan can't kill him, and Medea buffing him with defense stuff let him tank Full Goddess Artemis' laser 2 times.

Unlike Siegfried downgrading by rank and Karna cutting to a tenth, it just feels a lot more all over the place?

And Caladbolg should by all means not be used. Herk getting one shot by Durindana and then clashing with Caladbolg without a scratch on himself pretty much screams outlier, since both are just A Rank.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

(You people should have brought all these feats when Mitch asked for them before making the thread)

This, I asked for feats so I could actually calc some

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This, I asked for feats so I could actually calc some

I didn't think about Siegfried vs Karna until just now when looking through stuff...

I am very sorry..

 

[Paul_Frank]

Wasn't the Caliburn killing him also in part due to well, it being inside him? That said, Morgan did take him down, it just didn't permanently kill him, so idk if its actually an issue to use.
Lostbelt Hercs are just kinda all over the place though, such as him just blocking Loptr with his face for a bit, so they probably shouldn't be used.

I personally think scaling via Herc stuff is fine, and we had done it before for a while so eh.

As for the Caladbolg thing, I'd argue that if it was an outlier, it'd be the other way around. He tanks Caladbolg, he's tanked other strong things as well, but Hector's spear is suddenly able to both instantly kill Herc and pierce Asterios.

As for where the feats were before, none of the people presenting the feats pay attention to the discussion thread at all kek

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you do wanna try the explosion thingy, since that one is new to me and I hadn't heard it mentioned before, it is in the first chapter of the Redline manga.

Interestingly, the number of deaths is mentioned at around... 200,000 people I think? Just checked it. Pretty similar to the atomic bombs, but not sure how easy it'd be to calc the size of the explosion since the background seems a bit hard to use.

@Paul_Frank Except he didn't tank other shit without a scratch. Medea's magic for sure doesn't scale to high end NPs, but she could still kill Heracles 2-3 times. Heracles is one of the very few cases, or the only one that comes to mind right now, of a Servant taking a high level NP head on and coming out squeaky clean with no wounds.

Considering Nasu had it changed in UBW so that he actually died from it when he didn't have time to strike it with his sword, then Caladbolg is put into even more doubt. Sure, "adaptation", but it only supports even further "Similar ranked NPs are stronger than Servant Base Stats" and Durindana killing him.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What if the outlier there is Hektors spear for instantly killing herc?

Did Herc also have Godhand (whatever its called) in okanaeos?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Hector's Spear being the outlier makes no sense though...

Why the hell would we scale a Servant directly to an NP? Not any NP, an NP of similar rank to their STR. After NPs have been said again and again to be stronger than normal attacks. After they keep getting treated like trump cards and when their power is really low, like Antares Snipe, or their use is something else, like Rule Breaker, we get outright told this fact?

How about B rank Blasted Tree? In the novel, Kairi wastes a Command Seal teleporting Mordred the hell out of there. In the anime, to raise her defense as much as possible so she doesn't die, and still it did some damage. The same Mordred with A rank Endurance like Heracles.

Edit: Here is the specific bit. Caules intends to use his Command Spell to Empower Fran and make sure she kills Mordred.

But Kairi uses his to teleport Mordred out of the area of attack. As the narration says, the command spell bent space so the attack would still hit Mordred so that Caules order was followed, but all of the mana was spent doing that and it didn't make Blasted Tree any stronger. On top of that, Kairi mentions that the attack not only homed on her, it tried to drag her back to the center, most likely to take the full power of the attack, but it obviously failed. Despite this, Mordred took very severe injuries. Further implied when Saber mentions Kairi could have used his Command Seal sooner, or Caules that if he had used his sooner or Kairi had taken more time, he could have succeeded.

But despite not taking the full brunt, Mordred still got hit pretty damn hard. MEANWHILE, Heracles doesn't even get tickled by being near the epicenter of the explosion of a stronger NP. Nah fam, this ain't it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well that was disappointing, that explosion is only Low 7-B

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well that was disappointing, that explosion is only Low 7-B

What about calc'ing Karna vs Siegfriend to find out what Siegfried survived?



Would you like an episode # instead?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, sure, give me the episode number

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Well that was disappointing, that explosion is only Low 7-B

But now it can be scaled to weaker Servants since Okita survived at the center, and is even further consistency for the Berserker feat.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

But now it can be scaled to weaker Servants since Okita survived at the center, and is even further consistency for the Berserker feat.

Indeed

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Herc surviving an A rank Broken Phantasm (Caladbolg) blowing up on him

Except he didn't. In a interview, Nasu said Herc actually lost a life there, he just regenerated so fast they thought he tanked it. He did intercept it tho, but remember Hercules is stronger than his dura, and Caladbolg has dura negation.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah, sure, give me the episode number

Episode 22

youtube also has the fight scene https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Karna+vs+siegfried+full+fight

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Except he didn't. In a interview, Nasu said Herc actually lost a life there, he just regenerated so fast they thought he tanked it. He did intercept it tho, but remember Hercules is stronger than his dura, and Caladbolg has dura negation.

That interview quote was showing the difference between the VN and Anime iirc

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Yup. Nasu explained he had Herc lose 2 lifes in the anime.

Weird decision but it do be like that.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No no, you got it wrong, Crim.

Herc intercepts it and takes no damage in the VN. He doesn't as he is still regenerating and loses another life in the anime. My point is that Caladbolg still explodes when Herk intercepts it in the VN, and he's near the epicenter, yet takes no damage.

This is from the Q&A:

Oh, that. In the original work it was like "Even though up until then none of the attacks had been worth dodging, this one would have been fatal, so Berserker counters → the resulting explosion from the Noble Phantasm is devastating." Yet in the anime version it was handled as "Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates," which may be something to think about. In all he lost 2 lives because of it.

Which you can find here. The issue is, that means Herk scales to something that can one shit him, which is... I don't know what to tell you, that just sounds nonsensical.

 

[Paul_Frank]

For the blasted tree example, I'll note, Fran was also boosted with a seal, so the feat in general is kinda eh

Herc would scale AP wise for matching and clashing against Caladbolg, which would have been a kill if it hit, which makes sense given the whole "twisting space" part of it

Either way, besides the Caladbolg thing, there's still downscaling from Morgan, since Herc "survives" this. Downscaling from Caliburn which it just seems downscales from Excalibur which killed 7 times when put inside him or whatever. The Lion King thing, I'm pretty sure there was some stuff back in Shimosa as well, the storm thing from Ishtar above etc. These all being supporting things for tier 6 as opposed to just 7.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Right, yeah. In the end, he still didn't tank it tho.


also i like how apperently Takeuchi didn't know about that lol

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'm pretty sure there was some stuff back in Shimosa as well

Raikou's noble phantasm destroying a providence, yeah. I completely forgot about that actually lol.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you are saying that, you didn't read what I linked in the slightest. The narration explicitly says the energy of the command seal was wasted homing into Mordred after she escaped, so the power couldn't be boosted like Caules wanted.

So yeah, no, keep me off the "scaling Servants to NPs" train, I don't want any part in that mess and that ain't happening any time soon.

Plus, the storm is unusable without an actual calc.

@CrimsonStarFallen No, that was Shuten if I remember right.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Both of them actually. Shuten melted one down and Raikou destroyed another. I think Tomoe took part in something else but i don't remember, i'll re-read Shimousa later tomorrow probably.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I know the name of the one that Shuten melted with her Sake, but which one did Raikou fuck up?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This one was likely work from Tomoe.
How big that one is for reference.
Also, my mistake, Raikou didn't destroy any, but Shuten did a pretty good job at it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Okay, so my memory ain't trash.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

There's also this statement of Shuten asking if Raikou would like to try something, but idk if that's enough to assume her NP can bust a providence.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yeah, sure, give me the episode number

I ran that calc a while back with one of the calc group members, it didn't yield anything notable unfortunately

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, Shuten is talking about pouring out her own NP. The wording is odd, but there doesn't seem to be anything indicating Raikou would be the one doing it or if she could help, hence the "what do you think?" after she says she wants to spill it all out.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Ya. It was just this weird take i heard a friend saying but ye. I wonder if there's a way to calculate melting the providence tho.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Best I can think of is treating it like some sort of flame feat, getting an appropiate heat and then assuming the AoE is the province.

Then again, not sure it is really needed. We have enough NP stuff, and Shuten's was always more about status effects than pure damage. I think getting information on the storm feat from Ishtar mentioned earlier to see how it could be calced would be more fruitful.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well, Low 7-B just keeps being consistent

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

to me, both tiers looks pretty consistent.

Can't wait for the movie to come out and put some clarity on gawain surviving.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

3:20:50 for full storm feat context.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's 3 feats in a row.

Again, fully on board for with Low 7-B, Likely High 6-C, or 6-C if we say they back scale.

Do you wanna try once more with the storm thingy Mitch, or this seems like enough for you?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean if there's more, then we should calc more, but regardless two of my Low 7-B feats haven't even been evaluated yet, so let's wait for that first before deciding anything for sure, I would have waited to post this CRT until getting these calcs accepted if I had calced them beforehand, so sorry about that

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I mean if there's more, then we should calc more, but regardless two of my Low 7-B feats haven't even been evaluated yet, so let's wait for that first before deciding anything for sure, I would have waited to post this CRT until getting these calcs accepted if I had calced them beforehand, so sorry about that

its more so our fault for not thinking of these other feats until now.

sometimes it takes an actual CRT to get peoples brains moving and working.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I wasn't even aware this was gonna happen, was busy with other CRTs, including Nasu ones.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No problem, I didn't know about the Redline one and didn't think of mentioning Karna's, so that ain't on you.

That said, the Ishtar one is probably not usable either. After watching that bit, am pretty sure that it isn't Ishtar causing that, nothing even indicates it. Rather, I think that is nothing more than the immature form of Gugalunna before Ishtar starts fully materializing him.

Notice how she mentions using her Ishtar QPS machine to "put together different living body parts, with an immature organism as the nucleus" (happens around 3:35:40).

The storm is also nowhere to be seen when the QSP machine is destroyed and Gugalanna is dissipated. More over, it sounds the exact same as the massive storm that manifests when Ishtar appears in Strange Fake using a Homunculi as a vessel, and the storm is caused by Gugalunna.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

My Karna calc got accepted as Low 7-B, however I had to revise the Tokyo Explosion calc and it's now 7-C, I find calcs so funny sometimes, huge explosions that you think would be very impressive always are weaker than feats that don't seem like they would be that strong