Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions

[TheUnshakableOne]

That one I just don't consider usable, and honestly just view it as one of more dumb things Extella does.

Gawain wouldn't compare to the Lion king's Full Might even with NotS, and VS can kill full-on Gods, not Divine Spirits which are below them. And not only kill, but practically one shot. To be entirely frank, I mostly prefer to ignore Extella, it's scaling is a mess left and right (like Gilgamesh, in Servant form, still being too much for 2 characters wielding the Tier 2 power of the Moon Cell. Go figure.)

it came from the Fate/Extra CCC Foxtail manga, but I see.. A separate canocity than extella and the Normal CCC PSP game

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The EXTRA timeline is just a mess, being frank.

 

[GodEmperorNorton]

I'm not sure if this was discussed already and I just missed it, but what feat were servants scaling to before the 6c upgrade. As far as I'm aware its not like that feat was debunked as inaccurate or something, they just upgraded it to the 6c one.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The EXTRA timeline is just a mess, being frank.

i sent you a message. I didn't want to clog this thread up with "What-ifs."

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@GodEmperorNorton

The same feat as now, though the backing by Karna and Arash is something more recent I found. Basically, Mitch thought the 6-C just felt wrong and didn't have enough backing, and tried calcing a few things. Low 7-B looked pretty consistent.

I just argued hat 6-C deserves a possibly since even if not enough, I feel the evidence is pretty solid. Though if the majority still disagrees, I'll explain my points if asked but I'll try not to stonewall this.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Something I just thought of that I don't remember was brought up.

Suppose Lion king used her spear to blast Gawain.

The Spear has seals upon it that only activate under certain Conditions.

im terrible at describing what my points are.. but im trying to say this helps us learn that Gawain didn't take a full powered blast, or probably not a blast that created a larger crater.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Restraints_of_the_Round_Table

 

[LehenDuo]

Something I just thought of that I don't remember was brought up.

Yeah, that has been brought up already IIRC (when it was last discussed).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why not calc Rhongo clearing the skies of cumulonimbus clouds during a heavy rain thunderstorm in Lord El-melloi Case Files Episode 5 at 16minute marker which causes the clouds to slowly disperesed and then it completely wipes all clouds in the sky away making it a beautiful very vibrant bright sunny day with no clouds to be seen at all after the 18 minute marker with its blast?

Not all the seals were active during that scene. perhaps it could scale?

 

[Schnee_One]

Cloud splitting is barely a notable feat at all, I doubt its worth calcing

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Cloud splitting is barely a notable feat at all, I doubt its worth calcing

true, i just thought maybe its worth mentioning. if i read the cloud page thingy right though dispersing all cumulonimbus clouds could yield a tier 7 rating

if i read that "common feats' section properly.

 

[Schnee_One]

Tier 7 for a Lion king with a high 6C feat is trash

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Tier 7 for a Lion king with a high 6C feat is trash

it wasn't lion king that did it, but Gray (Not a servant) whom can wield Rhongo-spear

in regards to the cloud dispersion i mentioned before.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

from randomly scaling the Servants to 1/5 the rating of the High 6-C Lion King calc

Honestly that entire calc sucks.

I can use pixelscaling in that same image to say that Camelot's walls are somewhere in the order of several to tens of kilometers tall, which is just silly when we see how large these walls are in comparisons to characters in the animated movie trailers and just what we can infer from the size of tents and people in the background. And if elements in the game map are exaggerated there's nothing saying the craters aren't either. And we know how small these craters actually are from the movie, too, and the game CGs don't directly contradict this due to us not knowing their elevation when overlooking the craters.

I don't think it's reasonable to say Gawaine took the full yield of that - or even 1/5th, due to the massive area that Rhongo blasts cover. It isn't uniformly exerting High 6-C energy on human-sized objects, otherwise that crater would be a fuckton larger. That's me reaching a bit through, I'm pretty sure our standards are screwy enough to ignore something basic about large area-of-effect attacks. That and the page doesn't even elaborate what it means by "casual attack", link the actual feat, or explain why this casual attack is even remotely within OOMs of Rhongo Blasts.

vaporization revisions also yeet the calc but that's for later

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Oh, and the calc assumes a depth when you can just calc the depth with this image if you know the diameter.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I imagine by what they mean with "casual attack" is that it had some restraints or seals upon it that prevented its full output. Gawain definitely didn't fillfull the same conditions as creating Jerusalem would. So some restraints would still seal the power output of rhongo therefore weakening it. i suck at explaining things

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Could the feat be linked here, and then also linked on Gawaine's page when this is finished?

 

[LehenDuo]

Camelot Singularity - Section 5 - Taking Flight 1/2

 

[Schnee_One]

<We just started doing edits on hundreds of files

<The Calc sucks

Being a nasu fan is suffering

 

[LehenDuo]

<We just started doing edits on hundreds of files

<The Calc sucks

Being a nasu fan is suffering

It's not the one we used to make this specific change.
But the suffering is real XD

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Camelot Singularity - Section 5 - Taking Flight 1/2

Thanks. So he does take it to the face. So yeah, I'll link that on the profile for now.

I'm not entirely sure we consider backscaling when someone is intentionally pulling their punches, this being a common trope in fiction when an obviously stronger enemy is fighting a weaker enemy. "A small amount" implies Goddess Rhongorhymiad could have set her lance to any arbitrarily large or small power when nuking Gawaine, so it doesn't really follow that he scales to a notable fraction of the full or partial yield of it.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

Thanks. So he does take it to the face. So yeah, I'll link that on the profile for now.

I'm not entirely sure we consider backscaling when someone is intentionally pulling their punches, this being a common trope in fiction when an obviously stronger enemy is fighting a weaker enemy. "A small amount" implies Goddess Rhongorhymiad could have set her lance to any arbitrarily large or small power when nuking Gawaine, so it doesn't really follow that he scales to a notable fraction of the full yield of it.

I think the same thing.

 

[Schnee_One]

Its more so that Artoria does High 6C when she's incredibly casual, and that she would have at least pulled that amount when she fought Gawain.

Like I said though that just seemed like a bit much of an assumption to make

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Its more so that Artoria does High 6C when she's incredibly casual, and that she would have at least pulled that amount when she fought Gawain.

I don't see what's saying she would have pulled that amount. She can clearly control the output of the spear, so if a High 6-C attack would have killed him she could have arbitrarily lowered it by any finite amount. If Artoria really wanted him dead in that scene he would have died.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The spear has seals on it that restrict that power output. She can't undo the seals. The seals only come undone during certain conditions.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The spear has seals on it that restrict that power output. She can't undo the seals. The seals only come undone during certain conditions.

The way it's used in Singularity 6 shows she has a lot more fine control over the spear, though - and I don't recall the issue of seals coming undone ever showing up when she's using it vs. Gudao and crew, Gawaine, the random villages she nukes, or her clash with Dendra Lightbulb.

The way you're describing it, she wouldn't have been able to hit Gawaine with a "small amount" of the spear's power, it would have just been the full power of the spear at however many seals are released vs. Gawaine specifically.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The seals are only an issue for Lancer Artoria. Goddess Rhongomyniad is using the full power of the spear as far as we know, so that shouldn't really be of any importance,

Dargoo is right that she's able to modulate the level of power much more easily, the issue is that High 6-C is the smallest feat she has while not really being serious.

When I thought about Karna and Arash and their respective shenanigans, the values felt close enough that it seemed much more feasible.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

High 6-C is the smallest feat she has while not really being serious.

The calc actually goes with the largest crater she created on the map, though, and we notice far smaller craters generated by her in the trailer for the upcoming movie.

So there seems to be a pretty large amount of variation even when she's just offhandedly yeeting areas and people - it's not like up until Gudao and co. arrived she needed to particularly worry about how high the output was nor did it seem like she cared since the upper limit of Rhongo implies she could have just nuked the entire mountain range the Hassans were taking shelter in.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There is only one smaller crater that I remember seeing, every other was pretty comparable in size to the one Chariot used.

The other issue is the fact that Arash survived Arondight Overload though heavily wounded, and Karna came out of Balmung to the face with minor injuries at best. Both of these are the exact same type and rank as Caladbolg, which got revised to a 200 to 500 megaton yield (though this of course would require looking into the feat for any issues). If you divide that by 10 as Vasavi does, that's 20 to 50 megatons, also in 6-C.

Of course, as I said before, I don't wanna scale Servants directly to NPs, I said as much when I mentioned Herk comparing to Caladbolg 2 should be a damn outlier, but that's 2 cases showing that Servants are below stronger NPs, 4 if you count Asterios surviving Durandina while heavily injured after it had already killed Herk and Mordred surviving with grave injuries after evading some of the full damage from a B rank NP (Fran's). They should be below, yes, but examples don't really indicate a difference in the dozens or hundreds of times. The high balled value is even close to the Lion King one.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

200 to 500 Megatons is only 7-A though.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Wait-

Dumb brain moment, sorry. Meant gigatons. Family is going out so I was responding quick.

This is the calc, with the redone version at the bottom. Of course, as I did mention, it would merit a look into it to see if the calc is fine since it underwent a revision.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So I'll assume the Lion King feat is thrown out of the window then, since we're basically talking about entirely different feats now.

Moving onto the other "servant took NP but was put into a near-death state".

Karna came out of Balmung to the face with minor injuries at best

His profile says this happened when "utilizing Mana Burst Flames at full power", implying he buffeted Siegfried's NP before it hit him. Of course, providing the feat will help everyone here understand its circumstances, and once provided I'll link it on the profile.

Arash survived Arondight Overload though heavily wounded

I take issue with backscaling off of "character A survived character B's attack but was completely mogged" since fiction, a lot of times, ignores that far stronger attacks that high above your dura should just vaporize you or instakill you. That's besides the point though, there's no real standard for backscaling and more often than not I see it used this way, so I'd need to probably propose site-wide standards for this.

Of course, as I said before, I don't wanna scale Servants directly to NPs

I mean, do you want me to get every instance of an Excaliblast-type NP just fodderizing a servant to demonstrate how much more consistent it is for servants to not scale? I can do that but it'd obviously take a ton of time considering how often this happens.

Of course, as I did mention, it would merit a look into it to see if all is fine.

It uses an in-game map so it's immediately sus. And Jesus there's a lot for me to unpack for that one so I'll need some time to go over that, but right off the bat wasn't there special circumstances that amped Caldabolg there that interferes with scaling, as agreed to here?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My point is literally that they don't scale-

Karna has Kavasha and Kundala, Arash has A rank endurance and an Ex Rank Skill that reduces damage. They, unlike most Servants that take an NP to the face, have powerful defensive abilities. But those defensive abilities shouldn't boost their defense by dozens of times. K&K is obviously gonna be more powerful than a normal skill and, accordingly, he took the blast much better. As for "Mana Burst at full power", that doesn't happen in the anime. Volume 5 isn't translated so I am trying to see if I can find someone that knows japanese and has read it.

That's the official image used to show Laputa while it's being destroyed so I am genuinely not sure what to tell you. If you have issues with that point in specific I can't really argue about that since it seems like a bigger problem that would require its own discussion relating to in-game maps in general.

At this point, the only thing indicating an amp was the different name. From the scans I have seen and the wording during the Singularity, all the extra power did was allow Child Fergus to use the power of older Fergus.

Also, leaving. WIll need to continue this later.

 

[Schnee_One]

While we're on the topic of base servants, I think Kama needs to have her 6C key removed given its literally her 2A key suppressing itself alot...

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I haven't had a chance to see much of Ooku so I can't sadly comment on that.

Also, finally got a rat caught after infesting my house for a few weeks. Is it bad that my mood is so good that I don't even care if 6-C is dropped? The profiles are gonna suck after finishing Sabers, but jesus finally have that off my back.

 

[Schnee_One]

Or maybe you cared about accuracy and not his strong they were?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This may be surprising, but I really don't care how strong they are, I just genuinely feel both are consistent.

Low 7-B makes sense, but I don't personally think the Lion King being casual is vague enough to disregard the calc. Nor do I think it makes any sense with NPs. Like Dargoo said, there is many times NP one shot. But Kavasha and Kundala weaken things by a factor of 10, which seems like a big enough power difference to one shot while not changing the fact that they are not immensely above Servants. Not to mention the fact that it happens twice, 4 times if you take into account Servants surviving lower class NPs (Mordred surviving Blasted Tree and Saber Alter surviving Three-Winged Crane Realm, but hurt enough that she's disabled). These are weaker than A ranks, but still strong enough to deal a lot of damage. So unless C and B are again dozens of times weaker than A ranks, consistency is still preserved.

Though arguing my own opinion on this matter gets more and more tiring, so I wouldn't be surprised if I dropped it for a while. Is partly why I didn't wanna argue anything 2-A - last time all I got was "this was already debunked before" and non-answers not acknowledging the main point I was talking about, and that really kills interest hard. Taking care of verses with only 2 or 3 followers only truly is bliss.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

These are weaker than A ranks, but still strong enough to deal a lot of damage. So unless C and B are again dozens of times weaker than A ranks, consistency is still preserved.

Ranks are mostly arbitrary and aren't supposed to relate the physical power of Noble Phantasms, firstly.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if C/B ranked phantasms are that far below A ranked phantasms. The evidence being just the sheer lack of feats putting them in the range of A-ranked phantasms and the difference you just described of C/B having more examples of "put into near-death state" than A, with A having a ton of instakill examples that we're thankfully taking on good faith (yes I would have actually pulled the book on that one but that would have killed my time for other revisions)

I honestly feel like Low 7-B is just where (most) servants should sit at, without a "possibly" in the OOMs higher.

 

[LehenDuo]

Ranks are mostly arbitrary and aren't supposed to relate the physical power of Noble Phantasms, firstly.

Ranks for NP, Skills and Parameters are the same thing conceptually, it makes no sense to accept some and ignore the rest just because you don't feel them to be fitting...

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if C/B ranked phantasms are that far below A ranked phantasms. The evidence being just the sheer lack of feats putting them in the range of A-ranked phantasms

First, Parameter Rules say they aren't ''Far below'', the only definite different between ranks is between EX and anything else.
The number of feats of NPs is itself very limited, so to claim ''sheer lack of feats'' when there's barely any easily calculated feats for anti-fortress NP isn't a good argument. There's just as many A ranked NP that are clearly underwhelming. There's not even ''a ton of instakill examples'' because PIS, having Servants, the characters meant to progress the narrative, instakill one another would literally make the story shit... And that's not even a Nasuverse thing, literally any fiction or anime has CIS galore because the fights are there to add to the plot and/or to be visually entertaining, not to make any sense.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

it makes no sense to accept some and ignore the rest just because you don't feel them to be fitting...

Not sure what the point being made here is. We ignore a ton of exposition (such as the infamous "every rank up adds another 10" from Fate/side material) on Parameters because it obviously doesn't fit with what we actually see Servants do. In fiction, ranking systems are many rungs below objective analysis of feats.

First, Parameter Rules say they aren't ''Far below'', the only definite different between ranks is between EX and anything else.

You mean the same Parameter Rules that gives us multipliers for Parameters we've been ignoring since forever?

If we see a consistent trend of "C/B Ranked phantasm leaves servant heavily injured, A ranked phantasm just instakills", that takes priority.

The number of feats of NPs is itself very limited, so to claim ''sheer lack of feats'' when there's barely any easily calculated feats for anti-fortress NP isn't a good argument.

The sheer volume of animated takes we have on Phantasms is so large at this point I'm baffled you're even trying to make this point.

Half the time you don't even need a calc to say "yeah this isn't anywhere near Caladbolg going off at full blast, moving on".

There's not even ''a ton of instakill examples'' because PIS, having Servants, the characters meant to progress the narrative, instakill one another would literally make the story shit... And that's not even a Nasuverse thing, literally any fiction or anime has CIS galore because the fights are there to add to the plot and/or to be visually entertaining, not to make any sense.

Right, so the examples that disagree with your specific opinion of the verse are PIS.

If we really want to move to throwing out buzzwords like that, "there's not even a single servant surviving A rank NP example because outlier/highend/wank". Like what I just threw out, PIS is a non-argument that's worthless on its own and is grossly overused on the site.

Also this ignores how 90% of servant fights aren't them just blasting off their NP immediately, and the ones that do are mostly shit like Salter just eating away Herc's lives by repeatedly one-shotting him with Excalibur Morgan.

 

[LehenDuo]

Not sure what the point being made here is. We ignore a ton of exposition (such as the infamous "every rank up adds another 10" from Fate/side material) on Parameters because it obviously doesn't fit with what we actually see Servants do. In fiction, ranking systems are many rungs below objective analysis of feats.

That's not the point, the point is consistency. If you take Rank A as far above B and C, while it's obviously not the case by the progression, just for NPs because opinion, just throw away the whole thing, because at that point, it makes no sense at all already.

If we really want to move to throwing out buzzwords like that, "there's not even a single servant surviving A rank NP example because outlier/highend/wank". Like what I just threw out, PIS is a non-argument that's worthless on its own and is grossly overused on the site.

When the **** did I said that? Because there are obvious cases of Servants surviving Rank A's. K&K Karna literally face tanking Balmung? You are literally spouting non-sense that I never said, whaaaat

Half the time you don't even need a calc to say "yeah this isn't anywhere near Caladbolg going off at full blast, moving on".

Caladbolg II, the Archer version, isn't even about area, how exactly are you calcing that? The whole point of Caladbolg II is piercing damage by twisting space. The explosion seen in Herakles scene isn't even the NP itself, is cause by Herc axe-swording the broken phantasm.

Right, so the examples that disagree with your specific opinion of the verse are PIS.

Either there are a fuckton of examples like you said, or ''the examples that disagree''. Pick one, stop moving the goalpost. Also, which examples? Where are the ''far below A ranked'' calcs or examples?