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Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions

What details do you expect the movie to add? Lion King did a casual attack with intention to kill, Gawain was launched through the city walls, Lion King asked Agravain if he wants to test his toughness next implying Lion King has a standard casual output.


So among the suggestions on-topic:

I am for downgrading Karna's 2-A Durability; this makes other Servants a non-threat and makes removing the armor a pointless risk. The Mahapralaya feat can be explained by Kavacha & Kundala offering protection from conceptual attacks; a physical attack should only get reduced by 90%.

Also for upgrading E Rank Servants.
 
Mahapralaya does have physical damage values as well. Even though heavily downgraded as a Servant, the material book says it should compare to Pashaputa in damage over area. Pashaputa obviously also causes damage instead of only doing Moshka, since Arjuna destroyed the Black Forest and a bunch of Demon Gods with it.

The issue is that surviving "a few seconds" is just trash justification to say you tanked an attack, and it contradicts how the armor works. 10% of 2-A is 2-A, and Servants sure as hell don't have that dura.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
So wait, shouldn’t Excalibur and most NP’s scale above an attack Gawain survived? Since they can kill Berserker seven times over and he would have a durability similar to Gawain, and since Gawain survived the Lion King’s attack, but someone with comparable durability got killed 7 seven times over, then NP’s>>>Lion King’s Attack
Click to expand...
I might have 2 things for you to calc. I'll send them later. Not for sure how useful they will be and one of them is questionable.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
@TheUnshakableOne Ok, I can try and calc them when you send them to me

Also I finished editing the Stay Night Profiles
Click to expand...
I thought there was a calc for it, but i couldn't find it. Its Gray using Rhongo in Episode 5 of Lord El-melloi Case files. There is a cold dispersion feat for just its activation. the entire scene for its activation starts at about 16 minute marker on Crunchyroll

the other one which i think is questionable is Gawain using his Noble Phantasm.




I say its questionable because its supposed to be a sword that uses incredible amounts of heat, but that isn't represented very well here + its the Mooncell. but close to the end of the video you see a huge explosion. At 2:13'ish Gawain's NP cuts a floating island. at 2:20 you see the start of that massive explosion. This is from Fate/extra last encore.

Though these are just NP's i don't see them scaling to anyone physically.
 
If you really wanted to calc anything about that, the best would be trying to calc the massive hole that is left over.

Though I don't see the point. I mean ******* hell, there's like 5 or 6 calcs putting Servant NPs around the A rank and above at Tier 6. Obsessing about it further seems pointless.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
If you really wanted to calc anything about that, the best would be trying to calc the massive hole that is left over.

Though I don't see the point. I mean ******* hell, there's like 5 or 6 calcs putting Servant NPs around the A rank and above at Tier 6. Obsessing about it further seems pointless.
Click to expand...
like i said not for sure if they would be useful. though the gawain one seems kinda iffy.

tbh i would rather like to know how hot his Excalibur Galatine is lol
 
Would've brought them up if there was a NP CRT.



The energy generated by Excalibur Galatine has an unevaluated 6-B calc

The aftermath at the end of the episode shows a crater from Nero trying to block Excalibur Galatine + a long valley (Gawain's NP's blade extends 13 km).
2ZqFfaK.jpg


The fight has a lot of jump cuts, and the geography doesn't seem to make sense, and unfortunately the aftermath doesn't seem to have a clear reference for size. Though I guess it is possible to get a minimum distance from pixel scaling these two shots.
av3J9RK.jpg
WAoDcLF.jpg


The island cutting should be much easier to scale.

But yeah, if we are dismissing Nero blocking Galatine as pure Umu!favoritism from Nasu, it is not going to affect base Servant stats.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Would've brought them up if there was a NP CRT.



The energy generated by Excalibur Galatine has an unevaluated 6-B calc

The aftermath at the end of the episode shows a crater from Nero trying to block Excalibur Galatine + a long valley (Gawain's NP's blade extends 13 km).
2ZqFfaK.jpg


The fight has a lot of jump cuts, and the geography doesn't seem to make sense, and unfortunately the aftermath doesn't seem to have a clear reference for size. Though I guess it is possible to get a minimum distance from pixel scaling these two shots.
av3J9RK.jpg
WAoDcLF.jpg


The island cutting should be much easier to scale.

But yeah, if we are dismissing Nero blocking Galatine as pure Umu!favoritism from Nasu, it is not going to affect base Servant stats.
Click to expand...

The 6-B calc is not usable unless you prove that level of heat.


Oh I missed that crater!

What episode was this?
 
It is the crater I mentioned that would be the best thing to calc. And yeah, best way to get a height would be seeing the size of the area where Gawain and Leo are and maybe going off that, since it looks like a dot. Or who knows, there could be a better alternative I don't know about.

And yeah, Nero blocking and surviving that shit is Outlier no matter what angle.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
It is the crater I mentioned that would be the best thing to calc. And yeah, best way to get a height would be seeing the size of the area where Gawain and Leo are and maybe going off that, since it looks like a dot. Or who knows, there could be a better alternative I don't know about.

And yeah, Nero blocking and surviving that shit is Outlier no matter what angle.
Click to expand...
I fully agree with both of those.

I completely misssed the crater so now it doesn't seem so iffy to me.

I just realized. not only is there a crater, but it extends outwards as well. it left a long streak.
 
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There was actually a strange point brought up by Kami

Assuming that Gawain is 99 Gigatons, with the three times multiplier he becomes stronger then Lion King Arturia, and we would have to scale her up to being stronger then 3x Gawain, which also screws up the calc that was used.
 
He wouldn't actually be stronger, and she does need to be changed.

High 6-C is her smallest calc. The biggest is the one for the hole where Camelot was built, which was likely Jerusalem.

Her AP should also scale to her barriers, which blocked Dendera Lightbulb, even after Ozy made it stronger using his own Saint Graph as fuel. Dendera Lightbulb is comparable to Solar Flares. And considering that by pure rank and shown feats it is above Santa Quetz's NP, scaling it to High 6-B or outright 6-A, which I remember being the upper tier for the power of Solar Flares, makes sense. So even if Gawain scales above her casual laser, he doesn't scale above her full power.

Edit: Oh wait, have it here. Vap is already the accepted one for the feat we use for Servants, so the 6-B value would also be the accepted end for this one.
 
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Lemme try to explain this best I can, I am currently trying to study so I'll try to make this brief, if anyone gets confused I'll try to clarify.

Lion King Arturia is a divine class Servant, so by Default she must scale above Sun Gawain, assuming Gawain is about 99 Gigatons, with the 3x Multiplier, that would make her above 297 Gigatons.

There is a problem, the reason why we even scaled Gawain to 99 Gigatons, despite him not barely surviving the attack, was because it wouldn't make sense for him to be on par with her in base, so we scaled him to being only slightly below her (99 Gigatons to 124)

With her being around 300 Gigatons, scaling Gawain slightly below that not only inflates the stats but also doesn't solve the issue (Sun Gawain would still be stronger unless we scaled Lion King Arturia above that which is the same issue I pointed out above)

EDIT: Oh so she's around 6A?
 
Schnee_One said:
Lemme try to explain this best I can, I am currently trying to study so I'll try to make this brief, if anyone gets confused I'll try to clarify.

Lion King Arturia is a divine class Servant, so by Default she must scale above Sun Gawain, assuming Gawain is about 99 Gigatons, with the 3x Multiplier, that would make her above 297 Gigatons.

There is a problem, the reason why we even scaled Gawain to 99 Gigatons, despite him not barely surviving the attack, was because it wouldn't make sense for him to be on par with her in base, so we scaled him to being only slightly below her (99 Gigatons to 124)

With her being around 300 Gigatons, scaling Gawain slightly below that not only inflates the stats but also doesn't solve the issue (Sun Gawain would still be stronger unless we scaled Lion King Arturia above that which is the same issue I pointed out above)
Click to expand...
Maybe we can backscale Base Gawain and the Servants to 1/3 of the Lion King's calc then, if she's guaranteed to be stronger than his power when tripped and he still survived her attack, then we can possibly backscale him to 1/3 of the AP value of the attack, being 41.3 Gigatons instead of 99 Gigatons

3x Difference would still make it reasonable for him to survive and be relatively fine
 
It wasn't Sun Gawain that tanked the attack, it was base Gawain and he didn't struggle trying to survive it so that seems kinda pointless

Of course, if Artoria is actually 6A and Gawain just tanked a casual attack from her that was High 6C, it should be fine although that means that scaling Gawain below her because he should be slightly weaker is kinda pointless, he could be directly 124 Gigatons for not barely surviving the attack and it would make more sense then scaling him below that.

Of course that also means most servants are around High 6C with some downscaling.....

Jesus Nasuverse is a mess
 
Either 6-B off her own feat, or 6-A if you account for her barriers blocking Dendera Lightbulb. 6-A depends if you think that Dendera Lightbulb scaling above Santa Quetz's NP, which is High 6-B, and therefore scaling to the higher end of Solar Flares make sense. Even if you wanted to lowball it the most possible, it was stronger than normal Excalibur, which would be stronger than Caladbolg's Laputa revised calc value, which had a low end of nearly 216 Gigatons and a high end of 500 something. Even when Ozy makes it stronger, the blast doesn't go through. And he pretty much has to do a suicide attack and throw his entire base at her to get through.

@Mitch Nah, I think this should work. Lion King has her own higher feat, and even by pure scaling should be above NotS Gawain.
 
Schnee_One said:
It wasn't Sun Gawain that tanked the attack, it was base Gawain and he didn't struggle trying to survive it so that seems kinda pointless

Of course, if Artoria is actually 6A and Gawain just tanked a casual attack from her that was High 6C, it should be fine although that means that scaling Gawain below her because he should be slightly weaker is kinda pointless, he could be directly 124 Gigatons for not barely surviving the attack and it would make more sense then scaling him below that.

Of course that also means most servants are around High 6C with some downscaling.....

Jesus Nasuverse is a mess
Click to expand...
Nasu is a microcosm of Marvel, this is what happens when you invite multiple writers into an already odd franchise even when you supervise all their projects :V

This is also the dude that has admitted to leaving some stuff vague because he likes people speculating, and let Archer use Excalibur in EXTRA because the team made the animation and he didn't wanna let it go to waste. He actually thinks about stuff, but don't doubt for a moment half of him is a kid just laughing at all this, us included.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Why is previous High 6-C NPs still High 6-C? High 6-C came from the feat which Caliburn killed Heracles 7 times simultaneously. Just multiply the numbers to 7 of what is agreed with.

Also there's a discussion of downgrading God tiers to 2-B, possibly 2-A. Nasu cosmology is bloody inconsistent with how much universes there are it's insane.
Click to expand...
7x multiplier would put Caliburn at 'at least 7-B (13.3 megatons), possibly High 6-C+ (683 gigatons)'
 
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Why do you think it is?

I thought I said from the start that the Lion King is very much stronger, so we are using her lowest calc for a casual blast.

Or is there some other issue I am missing?
 
Wait, has the specific blast that Gawain survived been calced? because scaling him to some random crater, even if it's the smallest LK has made, feels iffy
 
Wait so it was not the attack that destroyed Jerusalem that Gawain survived? We're just assuming it's High 6C?
 
I will disagree until the day I die :V

Or until I find it less consistent. But I am sort of discussing it with Schnee.

Another thing that came to mind is that Caladbolg and Balmung are the exact same in rank and type, so they should be very comparable. The revised Caladbolg calc puts it at 216 gigatons lowballed, or 500 with a high ball. If you divide that by 10, WHAT A SURPRISE, 6-C.

I don't think it was multiple times, but Karna did get slapped on the face with Balmung, and his armor plus mana burst let him tank it (admittedly, am going off info from a couple of people, since the last Apocrypha volume isn't translated up to that point).

So there's that on top of the Lion King Calc.

Oh, and Arash. His Robust Health skill shouldn't reduce damage as much as Kavacha and Kundala, but it allowed him survive Arondight Overload. Even though it was a sneak attack more or less, he managed to survive and ascend from the bottom of the valley back to the tops where the village was. It doesn't scale to him, he was obviously pretty damn wounded, but still.

So that is 2 cases of Servants being inferior to Noble Phantasms, but not by so much that they are literally hundreds of times weaker. At least, not A+ Rank Anti-Army ones.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I will disagree until the day I die :V

Or until I find it less consistent. But I am sort of discussing it with Schnee.

Another thing that came to mind is that Caladbolg and Balmung are the exact same in rank and type, so they should be very comparable. The revised Caladbolg calc puts it at 216 gigatons lowballed, or 500 with a high ball. If you divide that by 10, WHAT A SURPRISE, 6-C.

I don't think it was multiple times, but Karna did get slapped on the face with Balmung, and his armor plus mana burst let him tank it (admittedly, am going off info from a couple of people, since the last Apocrypha volume isn't translated up to that point).

So there's that on top of the Lion King Calc.

Oh, and Arash. His Robust Health skill shouldn't reduce damage as much as Kavacha and Kundala, but it allowed him survive Arondight Overload. Even though it was a sneak attack more or less, he managed to survive and ascend from the bottom of the valley back to the tops where the village was. It doesn't scale to him, he was obviously pretty damn wounded, but still.

So that is 2 cases of Servants being inferior to Noble Phantasms, but not by so much that they are literally hundreds of times weaker. At least, not A+ Rank Anti-Army ones.
Click to expand...
Im not for sure how relevant this is to your point or how usable they are, but Gawain with NoTS active with Leo giving him an endurance buff with a mystic code allowed Gawain to backhand away VS from Karna to mitigate some of the damage this has to be at best a 4 to 7x buff to endurance (in my opinion)

Karna then right after using VS takes a blow from Excalibur Galatine, and he survives but he was only remaining through sheer force of will.

Edit: if NP's were tens or hundreds of times stronger then they should have been 1-shotted i believe with no hope of survival. Leo would also move gawain out of the way of VS instead of having him backhand it away with a slight buff.

Didn't Mash also block Excalibur from Saber altered with her shield before using her NP?? does that also count? (I don't remember the scene very well)
 
That one I just don't consider usable, and honestly just view it as one of more dumb things Extella does.

Gawain wouldn't compare to the Lion king's Full Might even with NotS, and VS can kill full-on Gods, not Divine Spirits which are below them. And not only kill, but practically one shot. To be entirely frank, I mostly prefer to ignore Extella, it's scaling is a mess left and right (like Gilgamesh, in Servant form, still being too much for 2 characters wielding the Tier 2 power of the Moon Cell. Go figure.)
 
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