Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions

[SuperKamiNappa]

Just a reminder that if my math is right (and we're using Karna's feat) then NoS Gawain should be 'Low 7-B+ (5.7 megatons), likely High 6-C (297 gigatons)
Ironically that would make Gawain stronger than Lion King

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Hm? Stronger how?

That was casual Lion King.

Edit: Also, who in the heck put Saber Alter as superior in durability to Herk and Gawain? I never remember her having A+ Endurance.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl Remember to add the "At least" before the Low 7-B for each of the profiles

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Since we are mainly using Karna to scale and his Dura is in the middle, lower tier of power?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Everyone will get the "At least" because they have the "Possibly 6-C"

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Fair.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Actually, another thing I wanted to discuss-

That 2-A with Kavacha Kundala on Karna's Endurance needs to be burned to the ground, I swear to God.

I am even more annoyed that I don't remember any kind of CRT for that, which would have been REALLY needed to slap a rating like that on a profile.

 

[LehenDuo]

That 2-A with Kavacha Kundala on Karna's Endurance needs to be burned to the ground, I swear to God.

All 2-A in Nasuverse needs to be burned to the ground. The verse doesn't support 2-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that 6-C every Servant is pure wack.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Mashu i sw

Actually, another thing I wanted to discuss-

That 2-A with Kavacha Kundala on Karna's Endurance needs to be burned to the ground, I swear to God.

I am even more annoyed that I don't remember any kind of CRT for that, which would have been REALLY needed to slap a rating like that on a profile.

Its from the statement that he tanked Mahapralaya iirc

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I agree that 6-C every Servant is pure wack.

Who are you agreeing with?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with the OP that 6-C should be downgraded?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

^That, and we're agreed with "At least Low 7-B, Possibly 6-C" result, tho i still believe they should be 7-B at best but oh well

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Possibly 6-C sounds like a cop-out to appease people who don't want the outlier downgraded tbh

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You can said that i'm the one of that peoples lel

I think Lance can explain that more than me

 

[LehenDuo]

Possibly 6-C sounds like a cop-out to appease people who don't want the outlier downgraded tbh

Lance explained it in the second page, first third. There are more some scenes that can be used as arguments for it. but Low 7B is just so much more consistent.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

In the end of the day i still hoping for 7-B, kind of frustrating to see them in Low 7-B but in the end it doesn't matter

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Why is previous High 6-C NPs still High 6-C? High 6-C came from the feat which Caliburn killed Heracles 7 times simultaneously. Just multiply the numbers to 7 of what is agreed with.

Also there's a discussion of downgrading God tiers to 2-B, possibly 2-A. Nasu cosmology is bloody inconsistent with how much universes there are it's insane.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

We should make the 2-A downgrade after this

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also desperate question: Can we still make a matches with Low 7-B vs 7-B? I know the Low 7-B value was really big

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Yeah, but Fate Low 7-B is really low-end. So without hax it might be stomps.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Ugh, so what i said was right, its lose-lose situation >_>

 

[LehenDuo]

Why is previous High 6-C NPs still High 6-C? High 6-C came from the feat which Caliburn killed Heracles 7 times simultaneously. Just multiply the numbers to 7 of what is agreed with.

Also there's a discussion of downgrading God tiers to 2-B, possibly 2-A. Nasu cosmology is bloody inconsistent with how much universes there are it's insane.

It really isn't. Quantum Time-Lock entry in Fate/Extra explains it properly, but people cling to a possible translation of ''mugen'' and make it as if it more complicated than it is. VS Battles is probably the only place in the internet that believes Nasuverse has infinite timelines.

Now, the discussionof what exactly are timelines in Nasuverse is probably a much more confusing one, because they definitely aren't ''universe sized'' ones to begin with.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Uh, it's not possible translation. It IS a translation of mugen. I know it because I'm famous for being a jap in this site. And also yes, it's universe sized, there's bloody space in it, and Saber Wars timeline has an universe explicitly.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Fate/EXTRA CCC Fox Tail Material:

There is no limit to how large she can get. Once the upper limit is reached, the upper limit is further increased. This is infinitely repeated. Basically infinite growth of infinite growth. If left alone, Kingprotea could threaten the universe. However, she would not destroy the universe. That's because the rate of her growth is inferior to the expansion speed of the universe.

"Mugen" can be translated to 'infinite', 'fantasy', or 'dream'. You think the later two fits the context better?

---

There is no point to complain about 'every Servant is tier 6'. Most Servants except those Rank E in Strength/Endurance will be in the same tier regardless, and it is very plausible for the Rank E to be upgraded as well (based on feats such as Caster Cu physically fighting Blackened Emiya). In fact, we should discuss upgrading Rank E before we conclude the CRT.
Tier 6 is based on a number of Noble Phantasms being Tier 6, and the implication that Servants aren't hundreds of times weaker than said Noble Phantasms. Not just the Gawain feat.

 

[LehenDuo]

Fate/EXTRA CCC Fox Tail Material:

There is no limit to how large she can get. Once the upper limit is reached, the upper limit is further increased. This is infinitely repeated. Basically infinite growth of infinite growth. If left alone, Kingprotea could threaten the universe. However, she would not destroy the universe. That's because the rate of her growth is inferior to the expansion speed of the universe.

"Mugen" can be translated to 'infinite', 'fantasy', or 'dream'. You think the later two fits the context better?

Infinitely repeated = needs infinite time. Time is not infinite, therefore =/=. It's almost as if people can't understand a hyperbole... Or as if the very next phrase ''the RATE OF GROWTH is inferior to the expansion speed of universe''. Explain to me like any number gets to infinity by addition or multiplication. Then submit it to gain a Nobel Prize, because that is impossible.
And fantasy and dream aren't even the same kanji. I'm obviously talking about 無限
So... while trying to prove there is infinite timelines you've proven the universe isn't infinite. Don't know if I follow you.

Uh, it's not possible translation. It IS a translation of mugen. I know it because I'm famous for being a jap in this site. And also yes, it's universe sized, there's bloody space in it, and Saber Wars timeline has an universe explicitly.

To be a translation and to be a possible translation are literally the same thing... That's literally potato vs potato/semantics. If it's universe-sized, then you are implying the Counter Force has domain over the whole of the universe, which is clearly dumb.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Why is previous High 6-C NPs still High 6-C? High 6-C came from the feat which Caliburn killed Heracles 7 times simultaneously. Just multiply the numbers to 7 of what is agreed with.

Also there's a discussion of downgrading God tiers to 2-B, possibly 2-A. Nasu cosmology is bloody inconsistent with how much universes there are it's insane.

I thought it came from NP’s scaling above the High 6-C Feat?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If you haven't noticed, the Kingprotea quote is a refutation to your claim that timelines are 'definitely not universe sized'.

So when it says there are infinite timelines, then it is appropriate to believe that there are infinite timelines in the Nasuverse.

No sure what is the relevance of the Counter Force; there are timelines where it is dead or weakened. So for the Counter Force to only have domain on Earth, the universe needs to be Earth-sized?

---

There seems to be two justifications for High 6-C:

1. Saber's Excalibur should be superior to the Lion King's casual attacks which Gawain survived
2. Superior to Caliburn which killed Berserker seven times over

They both work with 6-C base stat assumption (assuming Gawain can't directly tank Excalibur), but they don't fit with Tier 7 Servants.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

@DemonGodMitchAubin Nay. That is divine spirit scaling. NPs comes from Caliburn.

@LehenDuo And why is Counter Force be contradictory? Counter Force in Saber Wars doesn't even involve in story, Counter Force in Extra is pretty much dead, Counter Force in FGO part 2 was being wiped out in Olympus. Counter Force is a multiversal force, how is that contradictory? SMT has similar statements, it passed.

@Shadow Gawain may not but Caliburn would do, because if it scales or not Caliburn killed him seven times in a row.

 

[LehenDuo]

If you haven't noticed, the Kingprotea quote is a refutation to your claim that timelines are 'definitely not universe sized'.

So when it says there are infinite timelines, then it is appropriate to believe that there are infinite timelines in the Nasuverse.

No sure what is the relevance of the Counter Force; there are timelines where it is dead or weakened. So for the Counter Force to only have domain on Earth, the universe needs to be Earth-sized?

You are reading a different quote, because what you are saying and what you quoted are not coinciding... First the quote isn't even talking about timelines, it's not even tangent to anything I've said...
And second, it doesn't say there are infinite timelines.

And why is Counter Force be contradictory? Counter Force in Saber Wars doesn't even involve in story, Counter Force in Extra is pretty much dead, Counter Force in FGO part 2 was being wiped out in Olympus. Counter Force is a multiversal force, how is that contradictory? SMT has similar statements, it passed.

Because the Counter Force isn't multiversal, it is literally described as ''the will of the planet'' (Earth) - and Earth is so incompetent as a celestial body that it couldn't even produce a Type by itself, while the others planets and even the ******* moon could -, Gaia and Alayashiki, you know, ''the World''/世界 of Nasuverse.
You are the one who bring up Saber Wars, so... don't know what you want me to say about it. About the others, Fate/EXTELLA - Chapter Altera - Prologue. It's too long to quote here.
SMT doesn't have Quantum Time Locks literally saying ''No no'' to infinite timelines... (Or at least I believe it doesn't, because I don't know much about SMT)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So wait, shouldn’t Excalibur and most NP’s scale above an attack Gawain survived? Since they can kill Berserker seven times over and he would have a durability similar to Gawain, and since Gawain survived the Lion King’s attack, but someone with comparable durability got killed 7 seven times over, then NP’s>>>Lion King’s Attack

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This is a thread about base Servant stats, so it is not the best place for that. Unless people also wanna tackle a discussion about NPs.

As for my own take, NPs do need to be discussed as well, but that one shouldn't be hard at all when we have C rank and B rank NPs grievously hurting very durable Servants (Triple-Linked Crane Wings leaving Saber Alter unable to move for 10 minutes despite her dumb good regen, and Blasted Tree severely injuring Mordred, respectively. Both have A rank Endurance.).

Plus what Mitch said. So whatever happens, they should generally scale above Servants. And the stronger ones should be comparable to some of the calcs and statements like Quetz's being comparable to the Yucatan Meteor. Excalibur and similar NPs should for sure scale, since it is even higher in Rank, and Anti-Fortresses are outright said to pack more firepower than Anti-Armies or Anti-Unit.

Edit: The 2-A stuff, unless people really wanna tackle that, should REALLY be left for another thread.

All I am saying is that Karna having 2-A with an ability that explicitly only reduces attacks by 90%, because he "tanked" a 2-A attack for a few seconds is dumb as ******* hell, and doesn't make a lick of sense. If 6-C was put into doubt because Gawain was "lethally hurt", I have no idea how this thing would remain accepted. The Moon Cell Erasure's is hax on top of that, why would you use as a reasoning for dura...?

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

So wait, shouldn’t Excalibur and most NP’s scale above an attack Gawain survived? Since they can kill Berserker seven times over and he would have a durability similar to Gawain, and since Gawain survived the Lion King’s attack, but someone with comparable durability got killed 7 seven times over, then NP’s>>>Lion King’s Attack

This is why scaling of an attack we're not even sure how much damage caused is a problem, this will just lead to everything scaling with itself. I don't think we should use Lion King in Servant scaling with the limited information we have about Gawain feat.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

By that basis we shouldn't scale of any casual attack from someone stronger, in any verse, because we have no clue how casual they are and how close casual is to their smallest feat.

I see no "scaling with itself" even. NPs and the Lion King's casual blasts are 2 different things, and A rank NPs already have a lot of Tier 6 stuff, so it remains consistent.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

By that basis we shouldn't scale of any casual attack from someone stronger, in any verse, because we have no clue how casual they are and how close casual is to their smallest feat.

Yes, we shouldn't actually, especially in similar conditions like this one where everything about Gawain state is unknown and only assumed. The only thing we know is that Gawain survived and nothing else.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And that he was perfectly fine afterwards...?

Unless his wounds were minimal, he wouldn't be fine later on. Servant regen is not that strong, and nobody would help him because they are all fanatical about the Lion King. Helping someone punished by her would-be tantamount to treason.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

And that he was perfectly fine afterwards...?

Unless his wounds were minimal, he wouldn't be fine later on. Servant regen is not that strong, and nobody would help him because they are all fanatical about the Lion King. Helping someone punished by her would-be tantamount to treason.

This is pure assumption, Gawain receiving the attack was his sentence and Lion King spared him since he survived it. He's not a criminal and they could had healed him, especially when he's part of her knights.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes, and you have done literally nothing to prove it.

He was ready to get his head chopped off without the Lion King even being there to say anything, but sure, they would care about healing him when Mordred was just laughing around and Tristan was saying he was envious of getting hit by the light.

The fact that she would even consider to kill him means she doesn't care if Gawain is there or not, nor would the other knights except Agravain who was a bit worried, but decided to still do as the King said. Mordred is also dying just using Clarent Blood Arthur, stationed outside the city, but she doesn't care, the Lion King doesn't care, Tristan doesn't even acknowledge it or Gawain. Do they even care about the knights getting ****** over due to the supplement thingies they ingest to get stronger and that Agravain uses a bunch of later to defeat Lancelot, pretty much killing himself in the process? I sure as hell don't see them caring.

You talk about assumptions, and then you make even more without substantiation. How does that logic work?

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

Yes, and you have done literally nothing to prove it.

I'm not trying to prove anything, I already said we have limited information about it and we shouldn't use this feat without the details being more clear.

He was ready to get his head chopped off without the Lion King even being there to say anything, but sure, they would care about healing him when Mordred was just laughing around and Tristan was saying he was envious of getting hit by the light.

The fact that she would even consider to kill him means she doesn't care if Gawain is there or not, nor would the other knights except Agravain who was a bit worried, but decided to still do as the King said. Mordred is also dying just using Clarent Blood Arthur, stationed outside the city, but she doesn't care, the Lion King doesn't care, Tristan doesn't even acknowledge it or Gawain. Do they even care about the knights getting ****** over due to the supplement thingies they ingest to get stronger and that Agravain uses a bunch of later to defeat Lancelot, pretty much killing himself in the process? I sure as hell don't see them caring.

Assumptions, again. You can't prove they didn't heal him, he being spared directly by Lion King would be enough reason to they try to heal him since Lion King determined he should live more.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And I already said the information we do have is enough as far as I care. If you disagree, I don't know, try to convince the rest. I just find it absurd.

You are not only assuming that Gawain got hurt, but that he got hurt enough that he would need help, and that he received this help. 3, on top of one of them being contradictory to the obvious lack of care of the entire Kingdom, knights and all, for their own personal well being, or the Lion Knight outright sending Mordred out to die knowingly, and no one stopping it.

Gawain took the hit, and he was alright. An assumption based on the fact that... it is never shown or implied that he was hurt, and he is fine soon after.

The fact you compare these two things is mind-boggling to me.