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Technically Noble Phantasm Scaling should be it’s own CRT if there is a new calc, this is just for Base Servant Stats
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Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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This is the Caster scan. An attack that uses large magic circles was going to reduce everything within the Mirror World into ashes, though the boundary of the Mirror World doesn't cover the whole city.
https://s3.**********.com/manga/Fate-Kaleid-Liner-Prisma-Illya/0005-018.png
Though it is of note that her casual attacks are A Rank, and that the parameters of blackened Servants are one or two Ranks lower than the original.
https://s3.**********.com/manga/Fate-Kaleid-Liner-Prisma-Illya/0004-008.png
The question is whether it would make sense for such a massive Tier gap to exist between durability and NPs.
Gawain failed to defeat King Hassan for over an hour during a sandstorm. Once the sandstorm was lifted and Gawain got his 3x boost, King Hassan still casually deflected his attack, and Gawain was so shocked that he concluded that King Hassan's power rivals the Lion King. If a normal attack was used, then this is evidence that the gap between physical and NP isn't this massive.
https://s3.**********.com/manga/Fate-Kaleid-Liner-Prisma-Illya/0005-018.png
Though it is of note that her casual attacks are A Rank, and that the parameters of blackened Servants are one or two Ranks lower than the original.
https://s3.**********.com/manga/Fate-Kaleid-Liner-Prisma-Illya/0004-008.png
The question is whether it would make sense for such a massive Tier gap to exist between durability and NPs.
Gawain failed to defeat King Hassan for over an hour during a sandstorm. Once the sandstorm was lifted and Gawain got his 3x boost, King Hassan still casually deflected his attack, and Gawain was so shocked that he concluded that King Hassan's power rivals the Lion King. If a normal attack was used, then this is evidence that the gap between physical and NP isn't this massive.
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The statement is about her turning the "entire space" into ash, and comes from Prillya.
Thing is, the space refers to the Mirror World, which we see later turns smaller and smaller the more Servants they fight. Heracles is fought in the equivalent of a single building. I posted a scan as well that shows the walls of the Mirror World look to be far too close to the river and the bridge despite the fact there's a whole ass city to either side of it, so it that shouldn't scale to the full size of Fuyuki.
Edit: Shadow snipped me.
I already gave my whole thought process about 6-C earlier. There's Gawain surviving the blast, there's Karna taking Balmung to the face, there's Arash surviving Arondight Overlord but pretty wounded, etc.
Of course, Karna reduces attacks to 10% of their power, and Arash has A rank Endurance, multiple statements about a super resilient body, and an EX rank Skill which does multiple things like reduce the damage he takes. But it does consistently show that despite NP being generally stronger than Servant's base power, it is not by literal hundreds of times.
And we already have a big number of Tier 6 stuff for Noble Phantasms (Attila destroying Rome, Bennu being destroyed, potentially Spartacus matching and completely destroying a meteorite so thoroughly, there weren't even big debris left to fall on the village below, Ishtar nuking Uruk and making a big hole, Gugalunna being able to destroy the entirety of Connacht, which would scale to Ishtar's second NP which summons Gugalunna's hoove to come raining down, Ozymandias' Dendera Light Bulb being compared to Solar Flares, Santa Quetz's NP being compared to the meteorite that ended the Dinosaurs).
So either NPs of similar rank have an AP difference of dozens or hundreds of times, or they have a similar level of power and Servants can survive some of these with powerful defensive abilties that don't boost their Endurance by dozens or hundreds of times.
Again, Low 7-B, Possibly 6-C feels like the best option because Low 7-B already has like 2-3 calcs supporting it, but 6-C also has one and is internally consistent with the power between Servants and NPs. Hopefully that makes my opinion more clear.
Edit: King Hassan is a Grand Servant, so don't use him as an example. Beasts, and Grands by consequence, are far above Normal Servants and shouldn't be used for normal Servant scaling.
Thing is, the space refers to the Mirror World, which we see later turns smaller and smaller the more Servants they fight. Heracles is fought in the equivalent of a single building. I posted a scan as well that shows the walls of the Mirror World look to be far too close to the river and the bridge despite the fact there's a whole ass city to either side of it, so it that shouldn't scale to the full size of Fuyuki.
Edit: Shadow snipped me.
I already gave my whole thought process about 6-C earlier. There's Gawain surviving the blast, there's Karna taking Balmung to the face, there's Arash surviving Arondight Overlord but pretty wounded, etc.
Of course, Karna reduces attacks to 10% of their power, and Arash has A rank Endurance, multiple statements about a super resilient body, and an EX rank Skill which does multiple things like reduce the damage he takes. But it does consistently show that despite NP being generally stronger than Servant's base power, it is not by literal hundreds of times.
And we already have a big number of Tier 6 stuff for Noble Phantasms (Attila destroying Rome, Bennu being destroyed, potentially Spartacus matching and completely destroying a meteorite so thoroughly, there weren't even big debris left to fall on the village below, Ishtar nuking Uruk and making a big hole, Gugalunna being able to destroy the entirety of Connacht, which would scale to Ishtar's second NP which summons Gugalunna's hoove to come raining down, Ozymandias' Dendera Light Bulb being compared to Solar Flares, Santa Quetz's NP being compared to the meteorite that ended the Dinosaurs).
So either NPs of similar rank have an AP difference of dozens or hundreds of times, or they have a similar level of power and Servants can survive some of these with powerful defensive abilties that don't boost their Endurance by dozens or hundreds of times.
Again, Low 7-B, Possibly 6-C feels like the best option because Low 7-B already has like 2-3 calcs supporting it, but 6-C also has one and is internally consistent with the power between Servants and NPs. Hopefully that makes my opinion more clear.
Edit: King Hassan is a Grand Servant, so don't use him as an example. Beasts, and Grands by consequence, are far above Normal Servants and shouldn't be used for normal Servant scaling.
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- #125
Ok, it seems like "At least Low 7-B, possibly 6-C" (At least 1.4 Megatons, possibly 99 Gigatons) is what is accepted overall by everyone
So are we done here? Do we want to proceed with applying the changes to profiles now? I know Fate has a shit ton of them
So are we done here? Do we want to proceed with applying the changes to profiles now? I know Fate has a shit ton of them
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I would say we are done, but we could wait at least one more day to see if anyone wants to add anything. Or maybe until night?
Schnee hasn't commented again.
Schnee hasn't commented again.
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I’m assuming everyone is Low 7B and nobody scales above or below that
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Wow that timing on the post.
Yeah, while I have some things reserved for 6C (I may try to remove that in the future) the rest seems fine.
Yeah, while I have some things reserved for 6C (I may try to remove that in the future) the rest seems fine.
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That said, you did see my extra reasoning for tier 6 based off of the NPs, right? Just as a confirmation so I know if you have issues with that too and can account for it later.
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To be honest most servants probably shouldn't scale fully from Herc.
maybe at least High 7-C+ (600 kilotons), possibly 6-C (~50 gigatons)?
maybe at least High 7-C+ (600 kilotons), possibly 6-C (~50 gigatons)?
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We already have other Low 7-B calcs aside from Herc's.
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- Thread starter
- #132
That's the problem with the current ratings tho, randomly backscaling to a random value
If you're going to backscale, it has to scale to a benchmark rating
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Oh wait, I almost forgot-
This is my bad, but I wanted to say, it would be best that we made the E Rank Endurance and Strength Servants scale to other Servants, just at the very bottom.
I think I already talked about this before, but Rin hurting Medea is not really a good anti-feat that they don't scale to the rest. Rin used reinforcement to accomplish it, and she had left over gems when she tried this tactic. The gems had enough energy to completely cancel Caster's own blasts, and by Caster's own words, enough energy for a single gem to shield Rin from 3 of Caster's own blasts easily before it's energy was used up.
Even though Shirou most likely pulled it off partly because of UBW's special traits, he could still use Reinforcement in HF to come close to Heracles' strength and use his own move. So it makes sense to me that Rin could at least hurt one of the physically weakest Servants by using one of her jam-packed gems for a moment. If she could use one to survive Berserker gripping her and not crushing her immediately, it makes sense to me.
This is my bad, but I wanted to say, it would be best that we made the E Rank Endurance and Strength Servants scale to other Servants, just at the very bottom.
I think I already talked about this before, but Rin hurting Medea is not really a good anti-feat that they don't scale to the rest. Rin used reinforcement to accomplish it, and she had left over gems when she tried this tactic. The gems had enough energy to completely cancel Caster's own blasts, and by Caster's own words, enough energy for a single gem to shield Rin from 3 of Caster's own blasts easily before it's energy was used up.
Even though Shirou most likely pulled it off partly because of UBW's special traits, he could still use Reinforcement in HF to come close to Heracles' strength and use his own move. So it makes sense to me that Rin could at least hurt one of the physically weakest Servants by using one of her jam-packed gems for a moment. If she could use one to survive Berserker gripping her and not crushing her immediately, it makes sense to me.
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@Ionliosite how many where there and would any of them fully scale to weaker servants?
@DemonGodMitchAubin I mean... just cutting it in half doesn't seem that random
@DemonGodMitchAubin I mean... just cutting it in half doesn't seem that random
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Any number we use to divide a value without basis is pretty random and arbitrary, that's the issue.
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- #136
Can someone list all the calcs we currently scale the Nasuverse characters to, so all the calcs from 9-A to High 6-C to 6-A, I want to link them to all the verse pages and give explanations for the ratings to make it easier for everyone why everyone scales to what they do
Also the speed calcs would also be helpful
Also the speed calcs would also be helpful
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Scaling to Servants directly:
Lion King bullshit.
Heracles destroying some mountains.
Karna standing at the epicenter of Vasavi Shakti activating without a scratch.
Okita surviving explosion revised at 7-C, with D Rank Endurance
NP stuff:
We already scale off Bennu
Attila on wrecking Rome.
Gugalanna stomping (which is an NP's of Archer Ishtar's)
Ishtar nuking Uruk, could be potentially higher if it was Vap since Ishtar's NP does show the ground gets so hot it turns into Lava before screen goes white
Caladbolg ******* up Laputa.
Santa Quetz' profile comparing her NP to the dinosaur killing meteor
There is likely some stuff I am forgetting. I'll see if I can find the one for Arash's Stella, the comparison of Ozy's Dendera Light Bulb to Solar Flares, and the Lion King vaping holes into the ground.
Edit: Oh, the speed ones too?
Speed
This is the Enkidu one, from his NP.
And here is Gil's, reacting to an arrow faster than the lightning used by his Auto-Deflectors to destroy projectiles.
Hansa slicy slices some thick chunks of rock.
Lion King bullshit.
Heracles destroying some mountains.
Karna standing at the epicenter of Vasavi Shakti activating without a scratch.
Okita surviving explosion revised at 7-C, with D Rank Endurance
NP stuff:
We already scale off Bennu
Attila on wrecking Rome.
Gugalanna stomping (which is an NP's of Archer Ishtar's)
Ishtar nuking Uruk, could be potentially higher if it was Vap since Ishtar's NP does show the ground gets so hot it turns into Lava before screen goes white
Caladbolg ******* up Laputa.
Santa Quetz' profile comparing her NP to the dinosaur killing meteor
There is likely some stuff I am forgetting. I'll see if I can find the one for Arash's Stella, the comparison of Ozy's Dendera Light Bulb to Solar Flares, and the Lion King vaping holes into the ground.
Edit: Oh, the speed ones too?
Speed
This is the Enkidu one, from his NP.
And here is Gil's, reacting to an arrow faster than the lightning used by his Auto-Deflectors to destroy projectiles.
Hansa slicy slices some thick chunks of rock.
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I thought there was a low 7B feat done by people with E rank endurance?
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It got revised to 7-C, is an explosion in the Redline manga. Okita is pretty much dead center of it and comes out mostly scuffed from what I remember.
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But until then, there's no reason we can't use what we see in the prologue, right? If the feat needs to be changed when such happens, it can be done.
Edit: Also, what do others think about what I mentioned pertaining Caster and anyone else with E Endurance and Strength being scaled to the rest of the Servants?
Kotomine also does something similar, as the absurd amount of magical energy in his reserve command seals allow him to even hurt a Servant. So Rin being able to achieve that on some level to be able to hurt Caster makes sense to me with Reinforcement makes sense to me, especially since the main advantage of her best 20 gems is that she has been stuffing them with her own magical energy for 10 years straight.
Edit: Also, what do others think about what I mentioned pertaining Caster and anyone else with E Endurance and Strength being scaled to the rest of the Servants?
Kotomine also does something similar, as the absurd amount of magical energy in his reserve command seals allow him to even hurt a Servant. So Rin being able to achieve that on some level to be able to hurt Caster makes sense to me with Reinforcement makes sense to me, especially since the main advantage of her best 20 gems is that she has been stuffing them with her own magical energy for 10 years straight.
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Wasn't there something about Angry Mango being the weakest servant and something about homing missiles enchanted with magic can affect him?
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Angra is among the physically weakest Servant, without stuff like Magecraft like a Caster may have to compensate.
But I don't remember anything about homing missiles or whatever. If you mean EMIYA's Hrunting, that thing is powerful enough to rattle the entire bridge and force Saber to block the thing. If it's not that, not sure what you mean.
But I don't remember anything about homing missiles or whatever. If you mean EMIYA's Hrunting, that thing is powerful enough to rattle the entire bridge and force Saber to block the thing. If it's not that, not sure what you mean.
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If that's all we have then weaker servants only scale directly to 7-C,
Karna should still be a decently strong servant even without his armor. Though I think in Apocrypha he has only a C rank endurance
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Yes, his Kundala-less ass only has C endurance in Apocrypha.
With it, there's the 90% decrease and then the armor itself. It may look like the equivalent of bikini armor, but it does increase his defense beyond the 90% decrease.
With it, there's the 90% decrease and then the armor itself. It may look like the equivalent of bikini armor, but it does increase his defense beyond the 90% decrease.
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How does this look? Is this every calc and every correct rating? It's all very confusing frankly, most of these blogs have trash formatting
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Then I suppose we could (emphasize on could) servants with C rank endurance like Shirou!Artoria, Stay Night!Cu, and EMIYA to this. Though honestly I don't think endurance should be treated as straight durabilty rating since there a handful of physical glass cannons by that logic, like Medusa with low D rank End vs B rank Str
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Looks good, but look at the one from Shadow about Hansa turning a pebble into dust. I put it at the bottom of the speed calcs.
Edit: I mean, there are glass cannons, but that's not only a Fate thing. Think of how Weakened Medusa could (mostly) handle Weakened Saber physically as long as she didn't get hit. But while Weakened Medusa got killed and her head completely broken by Kuzuki, Saber didn't take nearly as much damage and recovered after a small while.
Edit: I mean, there are glass cannons, but that's not only a Fate thing. Think of how Weakened Medusa could (mostly) handle Weakened Saber physically as long as she didn't get hit. But while Weakened Medusa got killed and her head completely broken by Kuzuki, Saber didn't take nearly as much damage and recovered after a small while.
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The Hansa one was never accepted
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You missed Arc's pre-Tsukihime feat: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KamiYasha/Arcueid_raises_her_hand_CalcHow does this look? Is this every calc and every correct rating? It's all very confusing frankly, most of these blogs have trash formatting
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So it needs to be looked at and accepted. Still, it should be looked at since it is a good reinforcing thing.
What opinion do you have about the "scaling E rank at the bottom of the Servant Rung instead of to 9-A" like I mentioned, Mitch?
What opinion do you have about the "scaling E rank at the bottom of the Servant Rung instead of to 9-A" like I mentioned, Mitch?
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Looking at the calcs altogether a better rating for the Top servants if not all would be 'Low 7-B (1.9 megatons), likely/possibly 6-C+ (99 gigatons)'
Edit: NoS Gawain and Aron Lancelot would be 'Low 7-B+ (5.7 megatons), likely High 6-C (297 gigatons)
Edit: NoS Gawain and Aron Lancelot would be 'Low 7-B+ (5.7 megatons), likely High 6-C (297 gigatons)
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Well, that sounds good since the same 9-A feat that Rin tanked with Strengthening is the same physical strength that beat up Caster hard
@Ionliosite Which end of Arcuied's Feat got accepted? This shit is confusing
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That's already what I proposed :V
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Going by her profile, highest end.
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@DemonGodMitchAubin My point basically was that Rin against Luvia didn't use any gems as far as I can see, while she still had some of her super gems left over when she took Caster by surprise.
So her using Reinforcement normally would scale to the Luvia feat, but using it with her super gems should scale to the weakest Servants. She can already use them to completely destroy Caster's singular blasts, shield herself from them, or protect her mid-section for an extended amount of time while Berserker was crushing it in his grip, so it sounds reasonable.
It is similar to how Kotomine can use the abundant mana in the Command Seals to be able to match Servants or, by Nasu's own words, defeat Ciel if it was him at his peak in Fate/Zero, the same Ciel that can have a defensive fight with an Average Servant. Considering he already uses his magecraft to boost his physical body and make his Bajiquan stronger, that he mostly fights by going into close quarters, and confirms in the Kiritsugu fight that he can use the mana to boost his own body, the implication that he would be matching them physically and not with some spell seems clear.
So then, it makes sense to me that Rin could do something similar with her 10 super gems jam packed with 10 years of her energy.
So her using Reinforcement normally would scale to the Luvia feat, but using it with her super gems should scale to the weakest Servants. She can already use them to completely destroy Caster's singular blasts, shield herself from them, or protect her mid-section for an extended amount of time while Berserker was crushing it in his grip, so it sounds reasonable.
It is similar to how Kotomine can use the abundant mana in the Command Seals to be able to match Servants or, by Nasu's own words, defeat Ciel if it was him at his peak in Fate/Zero, the same Ciel that can have a defensive fight with an Average Servant. Considering he already uses his magecraft to boost his physical body and make his Bajiquan stronger, that he mostly fights by going into close quarters, and confirms in the Kiritsugu fight that he can use the mana to boost his own body, the implication that he would be matching them physically and not with some spell seems clear.
So then, it makes sense to me that Rin could do something similar with her 10 super gems jam packed with 10 years of her energy.
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If you're replying to me then technically the last time I saw a number being put to the Low 7-B end for servants it was 1.4 (from the Herc calc) not 1.9 (from the Karna calc). It's a small difference admittedly but it's still a difference
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Well yeah, but that isn't a Grand Order thing. It was hammered on since Hollow Ataraxia that Angra is weak as all ****.
His only strong points is his very high Agi, the fact that his NP synergizes with Bazett's to force a Servant to use their NP since she isn't powerful enough to do that, and his oddly skillful ability to defend and drag on a fight even against much more powerful opponents.
The only way he can match other physically-oriented Servants is disregarding his limits and fighting until he is almost dead, but even against Saber in HA, she easily blocks all his strikes and deals a lethal wound. And from Grand Order, it seems he would only match Top Servants if he pushed himself so hard that he was seconds away from death.
His only strong points is his very high Agi, the fact that his NP synergizes with Bazett's to force a Servant to use their NP since she isn't powerful enough to do that, and his oddly skillful ability to defend and drag on a fight even against much more powerful opponents.
The only way he can match other physically-oriented Servants is disregarding his limits and fighting until he is almost dead, but even against Saber in HA, she easily blocks all his strikes and deals a lethal wound. And from Grand Order, it seems he would only match Top Servants if he pushed himself so hard that he was seconds away from death.
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