Nanatsu no Taizai Maybe Series Finale Revision Part 2: Scaling

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura & Damage3245

So what are the conclusions here?

Also, I do not think that we can scale between two different fictions based on brief replies to fan questions.

 

[Peter1129]

The two verses were both made by the Nakaba. So I assume this is a similar case to Tatsumaki and ???% Mob where cross scaling is available since the author answered the question.

 

[Gelan06]

And what about prime meliodas being in his own words nothing to his father but even so the one escanor was fighting on par with the DK?

 

[Peter1129]

Outlier. The One Escanor struggled to overpower Full Power Zeldris and got one shot by Prime Assault Mode Meliodas. So him fighting on par with Demon King Zeldris who is far stronger than the two is just a simple outlier.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll have to give my thoughts on it tomorrow, but does anyone think we can maybe benefit from splitting up and streamlining Meliodas' profile?

 

[Peter1129]

I don't think we need to. He only has five keys each with multiple tiers but there really isn't any major timeskip or anything that requires an entirely new profile for Meliodas.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the cross-scaling between Tatsumaki and Mob was inappropriate and unreliable. If I remember correctly, it was later voted down and reversed.

 

[Peter1129]

There was a thread about it and in the end most people agreed with keeping the scaling.

 

[Gelan06]

Outlier. The One Escanor struggled to overpower Full Power Zeldris and got one shot by Prime Assault Mode Meliodas. So him fighting on par with Demon King Zeldris who is far stronger than the two is just a simple outlier.

Also meliodas has his full power after danafor but even so in vampires of edinburgh if i remember correctly merlin says that escanor at hight noon is far stronger than any of the sins, that makes sense if he is able to fight with someone who killed meliodas with ease

 

[Peter1129]

How hard is it to understand that a top tier fighting a god tier is an outlier. The whole Escanor being stronger than all the Sins at high noon has been retconned. The latest Gaiden showed Escanor being one shot as The One and the chapter after that Escanor straight up said Meliodas kept beating him up whenever he went berserk. The lore itself has also stated Prime Meliodas = Mael who is far stronger than Escanor. The whole fight between Escanor and Demon King Zeldris was an outlier until The One Ultimate came into play.

 

[Siegfried10]

Escanor at High Noon was stronger than any of the Sins because Mel wasnt supposed to have his full power back then. It has been stated multiple times that Mel grew weaker during the 3000 years after the Holy War (the proof of that is Unsealed Meliodas). Mel having his full power against Escanor in the Gaiden or when he almost destroyed Liones is an inconsistency and i dont think it should be taken seriously.

 

[Peter1129]

Like I said this has been retconned several times now. The Meliodas that performed Danafor Pulverization is indeed Unsealed Meliodas. But after that everything up until the Sins' escape from Liones 10 years was Prime Meliodas. The first implication of this retcon was the Liones escape side story which showed Meliodas possessing his Prime Demon Mark, the second was a small panel of Morning Escanor losing to Demon Mark Meliodas, the third time was the Escanor Gaiden when he got one shot by Assault Mode Meliodas and the fourth time was the chapter right after the Gaiden when Escanor said he was repeatedly defeated by Meliodas when he went berserk. Also this nothing to do with the topic at hand as Prime Meliodas > Escanor without The One Ultimate either way even if the retcon doesn't exist. So I would like to drop this.

 

[Siegfried10]

And like i said, Meliodas having his Prime Powers after Danafor makes no sense in the story. In the Liones short story he had his Prime Demon Mark, but that seriously contradicts the main story, as the power that Merlin sealed is the one he recovered in Istar, and thats Unsealed Meliodas. Escanor fighting with Mel also contradict the battle at Corand where it was implied that Mel and Escaor never had the chance to fight. And the several quotes of Escanor being the stronger of the Sins all make sense, because back then Meliodas was supposed to have only his Unsealed power (56k maximum with demon powers). There is also no reason for Meliodas recovering his prime power outside of convenience for Nakaba to make the Mel vs Escanor posible (and with Mel winning). And then that power just dissapeared after the Liones escape.

More than a retcon, i see this as Nakaba screwing his own story as he has done several times on the past. The way i see it, we should outright ignore things like the Escanor Gaiden when they clearly contradict the story.

And yes, outside of The Ultimate One he should be weaker than Prime Meliodas, but im not sure if weak enough to be one shotted in The One.

 

[Peter1129]

It makes no sense but the feats still happened. So Prime Meliodas repeatedly defeating Escanor without The One Ultimate is something we can use for scaling. I brought up the retcon feats because Gelan06 believed that The One Escanor fighting Demon King Zeldris wasn't an outlier and used the statement about him being stronger than all the sins including Prime Meliodas as proof.

The feats still happened in the story and are consistent with the lore so it should still be usable.

I mean considering how well Afternoon Mael performed against Full Power Zeldris, Prime Assault Mode Meliodas one shotting The One Escanor is really not that surprising.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean, ignoring the retcons is legit, Nakaba has proven that he has retconned things consistently, like how The Demon King is now the curse that was put on Elizabeth, which is just a horrendous retcon

 

[Peter1129]

The Red Demons power lvl also got retconned from 1k-3k to 1k-1.3k. Silver Demons are supposed to be unable to speak or make any sound according to their descriptions in the volume and yet we've heard them speak and make sounds several times throughout the story. Nakaba also randomly added a new type of demon known as Silver Demon out of nowhere and only revealed its name, absorption ability and power lvl of 8000 in the anime rather than in the manga. Which reminds me I still need to make a profile for the Silver Demon. But yeah Nakaba does retcon a lot and add stuff all of a sudden.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

> I brought up the retcon feats because Gelan06 believed that The One Escanor fighting Demon King Zeldris wasn't an outlier and used the statement about him being stronger than all the sins including Prime Meliodas as proof.

I used this as proof of Mael on the one mode being stronger than Prime AM Mel and capable of trading blows with DK

 

[Siegfried10]

Well yes, The One Escanor fighting the DK at equal footing... actually, any Sin doing that besides True Magic Meliodas should be an outlier. Just like Near Noon Escanor not getting one shotted by the DK is PIS (we are talking abot the guy that got completly stomped by Post Revival AM Meliodas).

Also, after reading the new chapter, it really does seem like this story will keep going for a while.

 

[Ah_Gou]

Base Meliodas fighting the DK would also be an outlier then, this entire thread would fall into water

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, if I could get a summary of the consensus, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that it seems unreliable, and to set a bad precedent, to scale the highest tiers to Continent level+ from Akira Kongou though.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree Antvasima. We shouldn't be scaling them.

This response: " A: Around 400,000, I guess. (laughes) No, perhaps more than that." reads more like a joke than a serious scaling justification.

 

[ZERO7772]

Why we can't scale them? So he's not allowed to laugh when answering a question? This us what most authors do.

We don't know any other PL above 200K yeah but not scaling them because the authors "laughed" is incredibly weak argument.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have Editing Rules against using casual statements.

"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.

When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement need to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid.

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate."

There is also our Crossovers regulation page.

 

[ZERO7772]

I mean, none of what you mentioned above really apply to what the author said about his other verse.

He flat out said 400,000 MAYBE even higher after a laugh, the initial statement didn't have any maybe, possbily or could be. Those Q/A are put usually put with the chapters when published and from what I know this statement does not contradicts anthing from the verse.

Most of the god tiers actually scales simply high tiers feats so it's not like we making a huge leap in logic here.

How did Masadverse get away with cross scaling then? Like, half of the freaking profiles there are based on Cross Scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

@Zero7772; isn't it more reasonable to scale the characters of a verse based on their feats or scaling from within their verse?

If George RR Martin said that Jaime Lanister could easily beat Aragorn in a fight, we wouldn't use that for scaling either.

The statement about Hawk's Mama have immeasurable power level is also ridiculous; is power level higher than a trillion? Is it infinite? Do we just rate as her as 1-A?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Damage.

 

[ZERO7772]

Again, I am not a fan of Cross Scaling either other verses used it like basic scaling method in their profiles like Masadaverse. I know that verse is super niche and no one will doubt doubt everything like here but I really don't see any difference

That's fair enough, realistically we don't know any estimated PL above 200K within the show anyway but just didn't like your earlier reasoning

 

[Antvasima]

I think that future fact books will list power levels up to a million or so for the complete Demon King and Supreme Deity.

 

[Peter1129]

If George RR Martin said that Jaime Lanister could easily beat Aragorn in a fight, we wouldn't use that for scaling either.

The statement about Hawk's Mama have immeasurable power level is also ridiculous; is power level higher than a trillion? Is it infinite? Do we just rate as her as 1-A?

I mean aren't those two made by separate authors? The current case with Kongou and Hawk Mama seems to be more like the case with Mob and Tatsumaki. Same authors answering questions in their q&a. For Kongou's q&a he actually gave a number before saying it could potentially be higher which means it's still measurable to an extent unlike Hawk Mama's q&a where he straight up just said it can't be measured. Which implies Hawk Mama > Kongou Banchou.

Well to be fair Hajun also has an immeasurable Taikyoku. Immeasurable normally just means way too high to be measured. Hawk Mama was stated to be even stronger than True Magic Meliodas who was stated to have surpassed the Demon King who was originally thought to be the strongest in the series.

And nothing really contradicts the god tiers being continent lvl if not higher. All the current top tiers and god tiers have their tiers via multipliers. Demon King was also stated several times that the god tiers like him cannot remain in the real world other wise they would passively destroy it over time by existing. And we see that Meliodas was passively causing natural disasters around Britannia even though he only came back for a day. And right now since we don't have proof of their power lvl only Hawk Mama and True Magic Meliodas scales to it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Ant

What about interviews when the author states a lot of information about his characters? Is it usable?

 

[Peter1129]

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Cross Scaling on this thread. Probably should've made an entirely separate thread for this.

@Damage Anyways for the summary it's basically like in the op. We have a multiplier scaling chain and the characters that scale to the specific AP. And we were deciding if 100% Gods should be High 6-B. As well as if True Magic Meliodas should scale to both 50% and 100% Demon King.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If we are going to disagree with the cross scaling here, we should for sure remove the cross scaling between One Punch Man and Mob. Really, removing for NNT and not for OPM when both are literally the same is hypocritical

 

[Damage3245]

@M3X; I agree with removing that tbh.

 

[ZERO7772]

Masadaverse also uses Cross Scaling thought?

 

[Peter1129]

Sigh. Yep I should've just made an entirely separate thread about the cross scaling. Nobody cares about the main point of the thread anymore and are all focusing on the cross verse scaling now. In fact I should probably go make a thread about this right now so the main points of this thread won't be ignored.

 

[Peter1129]

Anyways I made the thread about cross scaling.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3753462

Now I'm going to remove the cross verse scaling thing from the op so we can get back to the main topic about the scaling. Oh right also M3X made a new calc for Original Demon's presence. So we might need to change the scaling again if this gets accepted.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Nanatsu_No_Taizai:_OD_and_the_storm

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Is the Demon King Possessed Zeldris 100% or 50%, that's the main discussion, frankly I don't really care, but it does decide whether or not, High 6-B is even an option, so I imagine people will lean to 50% on that end

Honestly I don't think Nakaba even thought about this

 

[Damage3245]

Is there anything that implies DK-Zeldris is at 100% of his original power?