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Minor Mario Downgrades

AStrangeverse said:
the black hole shown is quite literally the same shown on every other planet in both Galaxy games

both share the same purpose and have the same properties
Click to expand...
I'm talking about what he says about the end of Galaxy 2.. The thing behind Bowser is white, not black
 
But Mario doesn't resist it, he gets dragged to the small yellow spheres (so it's not very strong)
And it doesn't look like the black holes we see
 
Potemkat said:
But Mario doesn't resist it, he gets dragged to the small yellow spheres (so it's not very strong)
Click to expand...

I ain't really arguing whether he resists it or not, just correcting what you thought

Potemkat said:
And it doesn't look like the black holes we see
Click to expand...

that shouldn't really invalidate it whatsoever

if it's got the same general appearance, works the same, and is referred to as a blackhole, it should qualify as such
 
Potemkat said:
But Mario doesn't resist it, he gets dragged to the small yellow spheres (so it's not very strong)
And it doesn't look like the black holes we see
Click to expand...
How does that mean its not very strong? I explained why he resists it, Bowser was sucked into it after he was injured enough
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
You know that all galaxies are made from power stars right? Here's proof that black holes in this game are made by power stars. He also still survives fighting the pull of a black hole in Galaxy 2
Click to expand...
Yes, I know SOME black holes are made by power stars, but the one I specifically used is just one that's in the galaxy normally. Like it's already there, there is no reason to believe it was made by a power star.

Also, why are we even assuming the black holes made by power stars are stronger? That's just an assumption based on nothing.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, why are we even assuming the black holes made by power stars are stronger? That's just an assumption based on nothing.
Click to expand...
It's not a baseless assumption if the blackhole made by that power star in question is definitely double the size in SHC radius to that quote natural blackhole you showed that's barely bigger than Mario.
 
Ikelaggan said:
It's not a baseless assumption if the blackhole made by that power star in question is definitely double the size in SHC radius to that quote natural blackhole you showed that's barely bigger than Mario.
Click to expand...
Why is that relevant when we already know that the smaller, naturally occurring black holes in SMG are just as threatening to him? You would have to prove that these specific black holes were made via power stars, and even then, their SHC would still make them weaker than the ones in MP6 without further evidence.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
How does that mean its not very strong? I explained why he resists it, Bowser was sucked into it after he was injured enough
Click to expand...
If the gravity pull of tiny asteroids that Mario is barely smaller than is stronger than a huge black hole’s gravity pull, then that black hole can’t be “stronger” as its gravitational pull is clearly miserably weak.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Why is that relevant when we already know that the smaller, naturally occurring black holes in SMG are just as threatening to him? You would have to prove that these specific black holes were made via power stars, and even then, their SHC would still make them weaker than the ones in MP6 without further evidence.
Click to expand...

That same blackhole in the story was created from the loss in stability from the Grand Star which upscale from the powerstars which create blackholes like this which actually has a calc unlike the MP6 Blackhole which doesn't even have one, and the blackhole in SMG1 literally took a whole army of lumas to stop it and lumas can even birth new entrie galaxies. Which at this point already draws a pretty big line that Blackholes in SMG1 have way stronger creditable scailing behind it than your point on MP6 being anywhere close in scale to it.
 
Ikelaggan said:

That same blackhole in the story was created from the loss in stability from the Grand Star which upscale from the powerstars which create blackholes like this which actually has a calc unlike the MP6 Blackhole which doesn't even have one, and the blackhole in SMG1 literally took a whole army of lumas to stop it and lumas can even birth new entrie galaxies. Which at this point already draws a pretty big line that Blackholes in SMG1 have way stronger creditable scailing behind it than your point on MP6 being anywhere close in scale to it.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the Grand Star black hole or the black holes created by power stars. I am speaking specifically about the black holes you find in average levels with no indications of being created artificially, like the one I posted to compare to the MP6 one. Those are blatantly smaller (and thus weaker), and still pose a consistent threat to Mario.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'm not talking about the Grand Star black hole or the black holes created by power stars. I am speaking specifically about the black holes you find in average levels with no indications of being created artificially, like the one I posted to compare to the MP6 one. Those are blatantly smaller (and thus weaker), and still pose a consistent threat to Mario.
Click to expand...
Then these stage blackholes would be more in the line of "stage hazard that's deadly to Mario but inconsistent to scailing" which most hazards are more game mechanics than anything consistent.
Heck you got one small blackhole sucking up Mario from halfway across behind a platform, and then you have a huge one where Mario doesn't get sucked in till he hits a death barrier, one in gold leaf galaxy no bigger that the one in goodegg galaxy. I can keep going but it's pretty these blackholes have inconsistent gravitational pull ranges that definitely fall more in the line of obvious game mechanic shenanigans killing Mario more often than Mario not having a resistance.
 
Ikelaggan said:

That same blackhole in the story was created from the loss in stability from the Grand Star which upscale from the powerstars which create blackholes like this which actually has a calc unlike the MP6 Blackhole which doesn't even have one, and the blackhole in SMG1 literally took a whole army of lumas to stop it and lumas can even birth new entrie galaxies. Which at this point already draws a pretty big line that Blackholes in SMG1 have way stronger creditable scailing behind it than your point on MP6 being anywhere close in scale to it.
Click to expand...

The Lumas can develop into galaxies on their own provided they’re a special luma and are properly fed. We never see a regular ass Luma just flat turn into a galaxy, regular ones typically just turn into launch stars and small planetoids. Needing hundreds of them to close a black hole isn’t really inconsistent with their portrayal, especially not a black hole that would have been created from the supernova of a sun.

we have no basis for how many Lumas it would take to close a “regular” black hole because they’ve never blocked one out before.

We can’t file black holes away as just gameplay mechanics here I’d say when they were specifically chosen as the kill method for falling offstage in every single stage in the galaxy games. Not comedically getting burnt on magma, not falling into a comedic bottomless pit, Not falling into the endless abyss of space, no, falling into a black hole, that’s the specific method they chose everytime.

It’s supposed to showcase that yes, Mario cannot survive or resist black holes to any capacity. They go out of their way to have a black hole in the plot almost kill him without outside intervention too. He has never resisted the pull of one outside of MP6 even with the vastly different amount of black holes of varying sizes he runs into within the Galaxy games.

Keep in mind we also consider the Galaxy games as the peak of Mario’s strength without amps as well.

There’s no proof or reason to believe these black holes are arbitrarily stronger than others despite their smaller size and frequently less impressive gravitational pull, and if anything those just show that the MP6 instance is a massive outlier for this ability overall.
 
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Ikelaggan said:
Then these stage blackholes would be more in the line of "stage hazard that's deadly to Mario but inconsistent to scailing" which most hazards are more game mechanics than anything consistent.
Heck you got one small blackhole sucking up Mario from halfway across behind a platform, and then you have a huge one where Mario doesn't get sucked in till he hits a death barrier, one in gold leaf galaxy no bigger that the one in goodegg galaxy. I can keep going but it's pretty these blackholes have inconsistent gravitational pull ranges that definitely fall more in the line of obvious game mechanic shenanigans killing Mario more often than Mario not having a resistance.
Click to expand...
Except this can go in the exact opposite direction, where the black hole in MP6 is far too inconsistent with the multiple black holes in Galaxy to be treated as a resistance. And honestly, if Mario dying to black holes is game mechanics, why exactly should we consider the resistance feat in MP6 to not be game mechanics as well? These are massive double standards you have yet to explain.

Also it's not a matter of scaling, since black hole resistance has nothing to do with AP; It doesn't matter how strong or weak Mario is portrayed as.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Except this can go in the exact opposite direction, where the black hole in MP6 is far too inconsistent with the multiple black holes in Galaxy to be treated as a resistance. And honestly, if Mario dying to black holes is game mechanics, why exactly should we consider the resistance feat in MP6 to not be game mechanics as well? These are massive double standards you have yet to explain.
Click to expand...
It's not a double standard cause I actually showed evidence that it's inconsistent between seperate blackholes in SMG1 while you haven't proved it's protraed as a game mechanic in MP6 your only going off a assumption.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also it's not a matter of scaling, since black hole resistance has nothing to do with AP; It doesn't matter how strong or weak Mario is portrayed as.
Click to expand...
Ap does matter cause blackhole resistances is not a catch all immunity to all blackholes regardless of their power.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
The Lumas can develop into galaxies on their own provided they’re a special luma and are properly fed. We never see a regular ass Luma just flat turn into a galaxy, regular ones typically just turn into launch stars and small planetoids. Needing hundreds of them to close a black hole isn’t really inconsistent with their portrayal, especially not a black hole that would have been created from the supernova of a sun.
Click to expand...
You got statements putting regular lumas ranging from planets to stars to even turning into said powerstars.
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
we have no basis for how many Lumas it would take to close a “regular” black hole because they’ve never blocked one out before.
Click to expand...
Powerstars go back as the basis lumas since they can transform into them and powerstars can power blackholes, you got a pretty clear basis that most of those lumas have to do up to star level damage to put dent in it.
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
We can’t file black holes away as just gameplay mechanics here I’d say when they were specifically chosen as the kill method for falling offstage in every single stage in the galaxy games. Not comedically getting burnt on magma, not falling into a comedic bottomless pit, Not falling into the endless abyss of space, no, falling into a black hole, that’s the specific method they chose everytime.
Click to expand...
That's clearly making a double standard cause it's not comedic even though you get the same "Too bad" game over like any of the other stage hazards.
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Keep in mind we also consider the Galaxy games as the peak of Mario’s strength without amps as well.
Click to expand...
Even though literally most of the scailing chain in the galaxy level range is a base Mario fighting Bowser's minions Amped up by a grand star.
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
There’s no proof or reason to believe these black holes are arbitrarily stronger than others despite their smaller size and frequently less impressive gravitational pull, and if anything those just show that the MP6 instance is a massive outlier for this ability overall.
Click to expand...
Expect, when the blackholes range from tiny blackhole sucking you from half the stage to blackhole of similar size needing you step into a 2ft range to a massive one that Mario can causally stand on platforms and jump to and from across gaps where the blackhole is right below him is a inconsistency.
 
Ikelaggan said:
You got statements putting regular lumas ranging from planets to stars to even turning into said powerstars.

Powerstars go back as the basis lumas since they can transform into them and powerstars can power blackholes, you got a pretty clear basis that most of those lumas have to do up to star level damage to put dent in it.

That's clearly making a double standard cause it's not comedic even though you get the same "Too bad" game over like any of the other stage hazards.

Even though literally most of the scailing chain in the galaxy level range is a base Mario fighting Bowser's minions Amped up by a grand star.

Expect, when the blackholes range from tiny blackhole sucking you from half the stage to blackhole of similar size needing you step into a 2ft range to a massive one that Mario can causally stand on platforms and jump to and from across gaps where the blackhole is right below him is a inconsistency.
Click to expand...
Something to add, in Rosalina's story book a Red luma states "we transform into all sorts of things like stars, planets and Comets." A green luma states shortly after "I want to become a star." Meaning that every luma is capable of the same level of power, it's just there decision on what to transform into.
 
Ikelaggan said:
It's not a double standard cause I actually showed evidence that it's inconsistent between seperate blackholes in SMG1 while you haven't proved it's protraed as a game mechanic in MP6 your only going off a assumption.
Click to expand...
It's not inconsistent, since Mario is still consistently harmed by black holes in SMG that are smaller/have a weaker gravitational pull than the ones in MP6. Them having fluctuating power levels doesn't matter when we can just... use the weakest possible black holes from that game and see that Mario dies to them all the same, making power levels irrelevant.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
It's not inconsistent, since Mario is still consistently harmed by black holes in SMG that are smaller/have a weaker gravitational pull than the ones in MP6. Them having fluctuating power levels doesn't matter when we can just... use the weakest possible black holes from that game and see that Mario dies to them all the same, making power levels irrelevant.
Click to expand...
So Mario dying from a blackhole that he can causally just stand next to from barely 2ft before he dies even though the gravitational field range of a 0.5 meter blackhole would be 89,875,517,873,681,764 m/s^2. I really don't see your logic of saying "power scaling it is irrelevant"
 
Ikelaggan said:
So Mario dying from a blackhole that he can causally just stand next to from barely 2ft before he dies even though the gravitational field range of a 0.5 meter blackhole would be 89,875,517,873,681,764 m/s^2. I really don't see your logic of saying "power scaling it is irrelevant"
Click to expand...
yeah

because he ******* dies

Literally nobody on this wiki gets resistance to things that kill them. It's absurd that I even have to debate this.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
yeah

because he ******* dies

Literally nobody on this wiki gets resistance to things that kill them. It's absurd that I even have to debate this.
Click to expand...
Epic battle fantasy literally has blackholes with either ludicrous damage or straight instant death and characters still have resistances to it, your nonsensically trying to raise the bar on what counts as resistance or not. Most of your points have either been countered with either on wiki scailing or small time calculations which you never even tried putting a single measurements to a single blackhole you mentioned to point out anything mathematically substantial to say it's factually inconsistent.
Seriously come up with a better argument, you pretty much going down hill at this point.
 
Ikelaggan said:
Epic battle fantasy literally has blackholes with either ludicrous damage or straight instant death and characters still have resistances to it
Click to expand...
Then they shouldn't resist it. "This guys resists something that killed him" is a massive logical leap that you haven't provided evidence for beyond "the black holes fluctuate in power" without debunking how even the weakest black holes can still kill Mario.

Ikelaggan said:
Most of your points have either been countered with either on wiki scailing or small time calculations which you never even tried putting a single measurements to a single blackhole you mentioned to point out anything mathematically substantial to say it's factually inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
fine

We can look at the exact frame before Mario fully disappears for both black holes. In MP6, he's a barely visible speck. In SMG, he's much larger in comparison to the black hole. So the ones in SMG are much smaller than the one in MP6.
image.png

image.png


I shouldn't even need to calc this, the difference should be pretty obvious.
Click to expand...
Do I even need to pixel scale this shit? Ask literally anybody on this wiki and they can tell you that the black hole on the top is larger than the one on the bottom, not everything needs a calc behind it when it's so plainly obvious. All adding a calc would do is quantify the potency of these black holes, which isn't even necessary because the point of this thread isn't that, it's "does Mario die to black holes smaller than the ones in MP6".

AStrangeverse said:
should've honestly expected this when you chose to make a Mario downgrade thread
Click to expand...
pray for my man @Kirbonic_Pikmin if he ever seriously considers downgrading Mario stats
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Yes, that's my point. Mario "dies" in SMG when he gets sucked into a black hole, but he has 1-ups, so he comes back.


I will be legitimately shocked if there is 0 in-universe mention of 1-ups considering how frequently recurring mushrooms are.
Click to expand...
Well what I said still stands, him dying is player error. Even then there are several different hazards in game that can kill you instantly despite Mario being resistant to them. Such as him having a very powerful toon force and elasticity but still instantly Dying to being crushed.
 
MicDaniel said:
Well what I said still stands, him dying is player error. Even then there are several different hazards in game that can kill you instantly despite Mario being resistant to them. Such as him having a very powerful toon force and elasticity but still instantly Dying to being crushed.
Click to expand...
We can't just arbitrarily say that every time Mario dies to something, it's a result of player error. The input of a player will never impact the very clear and obvious intent the developers had to make black holes a lethal hazard as opposed to bottomless pits, the vacuum of space, or so on and so forth.

It also bears mentioning that Mario's elasticity is very consistent, being a regular staple of the RPGs (even without compositing him with his paper self). The black hole resistance is not, and the multiple anti-feats against it far outweigh the single feat for it.
 
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
We can't just arbitrarily say that every time Mario dies to something, it's a result of player error. The input of a player will never impact the very clear and obvious intent the developers had to make black holes a lethal hazard as opposed to bottomless pits, the vacuum of space, or so on and so forth.
Click to expand...
Wow, making a double standard that fits your favor but has about as much weight as "miyamoto clearly intended this to be the case" type head cannon to explain away game mechanic based deaths. Seriously stop arguing at this point, you have no real anti-feats and continuing on at this point is honestly sad to watch.
 
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aight so now that we've reached the "HEADCANON + GAME MECHANICS + YOU'RE JUST SAD" stage of the argument, I'll just be tapping out. Anybody else is still free to give input if they can behave themselves though.
 
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