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Minor Mario Downgrades

I think at this point we need mods to start giving their opinions on this really.


Ikelaggan said:
Wow, making a double standard that fits your favor but has about as much weight as "miyamoto clearly intended this to be the case" type head cannon to explain away game mechanic based deaths. Seriously stop arguing at this point, you have no real anti-feats and continuing on at this point is honestly sad to watch.
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This isn’t a headcanon ordeal. This is two games that have a specific death condition be a black hole in every single stage. Black holes Mario is consistently affected by. There’s even one within the story he is completely affected by and blatantly cannot resist. And one in the final boss of SMG2 that he is also affected by. Meanwhile MP6 has one single black hole mini game and that’s literally it. If black holes were not intended to be dangerous to Mario, he would not have been almost killed by one at the end of Galaxy 1, they would not have been used as the kill method for falling offstage in every stage, and he would not have been pulled in by one during the final boss of Galaxy 2. Mario is consistently shown to be affected by the pull of black holes and has a single feat of the contrary. It is the definition of inconsistent and an outlier, and should not be included.
 
Does this "Mario still dies to blackholes" premise still even work. cause Mario still "dies" to a blackhole in MP6 so using SMG1 as a page of anti-feats doesn't make sense cause Mario resistance isn't from tanking a blackhole like Bowser, Mario gets his from being able to against the gravitational pull which is practically the lowest form of a resistance that doesn't garinty you don't die. But if your suspension of disbelief is literally that high to not even belief Mario even has minor resistances to blackholes just from out swimming it then so be it.
 
I agree with the OP
Ikelaggan said:
Epic battle fantasy literally has blackholes with either ludicrous damage or straight instant death and characters still have resistances to it, your nonsensically trying to raise the bar on what counts as resistance or not. Most of your points have either been countered with either on wiki scailing or small time calculations which you never even tried putting a single measurements to a single blackhole you mentioned to point out anything mathematically substantial to say it's factually inconsistent.
Seriously come up with a better argument, you pretty much going down hill at this point.
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Are you under the influence?
EBF is a whole ass different case than Mario getting mogged by a black hole 30 billion times
1) The protagonists walk through Akron's passive black hole wholly unfazed
2) Akron has multiple black hole attacks and they tank them to the face, none of them can inflict instant death
3) In BH2 they go into Alpha Centuri and come out fine
And even if you want to say they still take massive damage from it 1)Unless you are underleveled, the cast can still take multiple without dying, 2) That's still resistance 3)Full dark immune loadouts are a thing
This is entirely different from
Mario party where the only feat of resisting a black hole comes from a single minigame, and we have 2 whole games where Mario is depicted as being fallible to them, sheer quantity indicates this as an outlier.
Ikelaggan said:

That same blackhole in the story was created from the loss in stability from the Grand Star which upscale from the powerstars which create blackholes like this which actually has a calc unlike the MP6 Blackhole which doesn't even have one, and the blackhole in SMG1 literally took a whole army of lumas to stop it and lumas can even birth new entrie galaxies. Which at this point already draws a pretty big line that Blackholes in SMG1 have way stronger creditable scailing behind it than your point on MP6 being anywhere close in scale to it.
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You do realize the thing we give resistance to black holes for, isn't their degree of gravity outside of their event horizon yes? We would give them gravity resist or LS/Dura for that, we give people resistance to black holes for resisting the effects inside the event horizon, which is not based upon the strength of the black hole, but instead is the durability ignoring, subatomic particle ripping, gravitational pull which exists inside of it, which is not based upon the strength of the black hole's gravitational pull, so this argument is wholly moot.
XXKINGXX69 said:
The one in galaxy 1/2 could also be a more powerful black hole. Furthermore, he was endangered by it, but its not explicitly confirmed he would die to it. Barely surviving a black hole is enough for black hole resistance.
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Why are you using the scan that is being argued again qualifying, along with that black hole not really showing realistic properties.
XXKINGXX69 said:
Mario and Bowser could continue fighting in a black hole, and Bowser only got sucked in after he was injured enough
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Your comment contradicts itself, and they are literally outside of it, they are being drawn in, yes, but they are not inside it.
Ikelaggan said:
Does this "Mario still dies to blackholes" premise still even work. cause Mario still "dies" to a blackhole in MP6
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No, he doesn't, what, they literally go inside it, and it suddenly collapses (makes zero sense btw) and spits them out (what I said before).
Ikelaggan said:
so using SMG1 as a page of anti-feats doesn't make sense cause Mario resistance isn't from tanking a blackhole like Bowser, Mario gets his from being able to against the gravitational pull which is practically the lowest form of a resistance that doesn't garinty you don't die.
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If that is the reason why Mario got it, then he never should've got it in the first place, because that is just LS + Speed at most, nothing more.
Ikelaggan said:
But if your suspension of disbelief is literally that high to not even belief Mario even has minor resistances to blackholes just from out swimming it then so be it.
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He literally can't even swim out, what, if someone goes into the black hole during the minigame, they can't get out, they lose.
 
AStrangeverse said:
the black hole resistance can also be axed from Luigi's as well, since he's playable in both galaxy games
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Well I honestly question the resistance for everyone but bowser, given the black hole not being that realistic, but eh
Either way yeah should be removed from Luigi too
 
No, since it became controversial and got two pages, one staff member is not enough. 2 members are sufficient.
 
The Acid thing I agree makes 0 sense and agree that it's too weak of an acid to be significant. Thus agree with the removal of that.

But as for the black hole example I don't agree with just calling it an outlier. Most of the "Anti-Feats" are commonly seen game mechanics and about as consistent as basically every video game character dying from pits or from water. Also, it's important to note resistance =/= immunity which the anti-feats given are legit and especially the plot point in Galaxy 1 are proof that he isn't immune, but it doesn't disprove that he can resist black hole pulls to an extent. Some black holes are bigger and have stronger suctions and the Mario bros consistently demonstrated the ability to resist a pull of a black hole and delay the process. Delaying a black hole's pull is still resistance to the pull of a black hole and at minimum a resistance to extreme gravity. Which shouldn't be ignored outright and resistance to high gravity is consistent for other reasons. Some change in details I do not mind or making the resistance to black holes fairly limited I do not mind, but he has solid resistance none of the less.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But as for the black hole example or just calling it an outlier. Most of the "Anti-Feats" are commonly seen game mechanics and about as consistent as basically every video game character dying from pits or from water. Also, it's important to note resistance =/= immunity which the anti-feats given are legit and especially the plot point in Galaxy 1 are proof that he isn't immune, but it doesn't disprove that he can resist black hole pulls to an extent. Some black holes are bigger and have stronger suctions and the Mario bros consistently demonstrated the ability to resist a pull of a black hole and delay the process. Delaying a black hole's pull is still resistance to the pull of a black hole and at minimum a resistance to extreme gravity. Which shouldn't be ignored outright and resistance to high gravity is consistent for other reasons. Some change in details I do not mind or making the resistance to black holes fairly limited I do not mind, but he has solid resistance none of the less.
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First of all, the black holes that can affect Mario in SMG are regularly much smaller than the one in MP6, so the higher suction/gravity argument doesn't apply. Secondly, why is Mario dying to a black hole game mechanics, but him surviving it in a party game not? Realistically speaking, if it "killed" him, there wouldn't be any game to play anymore, which is obviously something the developers want to avoid.

Resistance to gravity is fine-ish, but Mario can't even really get that close to the black holes before dying. Not to mention, he can't escape their pulls at all, as shown in both MP6 AND SMG; Once he starts actually getting sucked in, he's kinda done for. A gravity resistance is still a bit too generous for those reasons imo, maybe a limited resistance (though a full resistance with this as supporting evidence is fine if a better feat is found).
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But as for the black hole example or just calling it an outlier. Most of the "Anti-Feats" are commonly seen game mechanics and about as consistent as basically every video game character dying from pits or from water. Also, it's important to note resistance =/= immunity which the anti-feats given are legit and especially the plot point in Galaxy 1 are proof that he isn't immune, but it doesn't disprove that he can resist black hole pulls to an extent. Some black holes are bigger and have stronger suctions and the Mario bros consistently demonstrated the ability to resist a pull of a black hole and delay the process. Delaying a black hole's pull is still resistance to the pull of a black hole and at minimum a resistance to extreme gravity. Which shouldn't be ignored outright and resistance to high gravity is consistent for other reasons. Some change in details I do not mind or making the resistance to black holes fairly limited I do not mind, but he has solid resistance none of the less.
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Black hole resistance is specifically for resisting the forces something would experience within the event horizon of a black hole rather than its gravitational pull, something Mario does not withstand and is threatened by repeatedly.
 
Yeah looking at his profile again, I think the gravity resistance justification is good as is, just remove the black hole resistance and we'll be good to go.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
First of all, the black holes that can affect Mario in SMG are regularly much smaller than the one in MP6, so the higher suction/gravity argument doesn't apply. Secondly, why is Mario dying to a black hole game mechanics, but him surviving it in a party game not?
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Oh come on, the burden of proof was on you to prove the party games are game mechanics. I already showed proof of the SMG1 blackholes being more consistent death barriers rather than gravitational pull. Also that "Developer's intent" line can go both ways, I can say the developers didn't intend for the blackholes in SMG1 to have any realistic gravitational pull and for the blackholes to be more death barrier related obstacles for mario.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Secondly, why is Mario dying to a black hole game mechanics, but him surviving it in a party game not? Realistically speaking, if it "killed" him, there wouldn't be any game to play anymore, which is obviously something the developers want to avoid.
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As others said, getting killed via falling off pits is game mechanics and there are cutscenes that shows survive falling from orbit to not harm the Mario cast and those aren't game mechanics. The SMG series black holes are intended to be the Galaxy series version of pits from classic Mario titles, so that's the general basics. I wouldn't call characters being able to swim just fine game mechanics if they have been shown to drown instantly in other games of the respective franchise. The one at the end of Galaxy 1 was one that was big enough to engulf the entire galaxy/universe (Depending on translation), so not really an anti-feat against Black Hole Boogie

Furthermore, it was also brought up that even simply being as close to a black hole as the Mario cast was without getting sucked would require resistance to some extremely potent gravity, like millions of billions of G's roughly. Also, there is Bowser who has survived black holes in the series. And Bowser also launches himself out of a black hole quite regularly in Bowser's Inside Story.
 
It's easier to say that bottomless pits, spikes, and so on are game mechanics because they are extremely inconsistent with Mario's tier, and something that makes no sense for him to die to; However, we cannot say the same for black holes, as the energy exerted on the body approaches infinity as you enter the epicenter. This would still kill a galaxy level character, as opposed to a big fall or whatever, so comparing it to clearer cases of game mechanics is unreasonable.

Like I said, gravity resistance is fine as it is written on the profile, but black hole resistance is where I have an issue.

I'm not sure why Bowser is being brought up when his resistance was never in contention.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
As others said, getting killed via falling off pits is game mechanics and there are cutscenes that shows survive falling from orbit to not harm the Mario cast and those aren't game mechanics. The SMG series black holes are intended to be the Galaxy series version of pits from classic Mario titles, so that's the general basics. I wouldn't call characters being able to swim just fine game mechanics if they have been shown to drown instantly in other games of the respective franchise. The one at the end of Galaxy 1 was one that was big enough to engulf the entire galaxy/universe (Depending on translation), so not really an anti-feat against Black Hole Boogie

Furthermore, it was also brought up that even simply being as close to a black hole as the Mario cast was without getting sucked would require resistance to some extremely potent gravity, like millions of billions of G's roughly. Also, there is Bowser who has survived black holes in the series. And Bowser also launches himself out of a black hole quite regularly in Bowser's Inside Story.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure we have unlimited underwater breathing even with the contradicting depictions of how long the characters can survive underwater lol
 
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