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Over a year ago, I made a Content Revision titled "Possible Mario AP Downgrade". While I like to think it was well-researched, it was a bit unfocused and unsteady in its proposal, and was ultimately derailed by a user's push to instead split the verse into multiple sub-categories, which I made the unfortunate choice of following. This was a decision that, I think, most people disliked, myself included, and ultimately we all agreed to go back on that. We tried to resume the discussion afterwards but, partially due to my own burnout, that ended up being impossible. In the end, I concluded the thread saying that working on big, controversial revisions was something was something I did not enjoy, and that I would not be working on the series anymore. As the existence of this thread may render apparent, however, I have changed my mind.
Also, since last time there was a bit of a disagreement regarding whether this many anti-feats would actually disprove the higher end ones, I would like to point to our Guidelines for Outliers:
Last time, I believe one of the CRT's biggest flaws was that I failed to propose a new AP tier for the verse- this caused confusion and overall weakened my argument, so I have remedied that. Here is a blog in which I have a series of higher end calculations and feats for the Mario verse that hover around the tier 7 range. You may notice that this includes Wario and Donkey Kong feats, with Donkey Kong Country Returns' moon punch being the new main feat. I hate to tackle multiple arguments at once when they're so important, and potentially controversial, but I do truly believe it's necessary now: I believe Wario and Donkey Kong games should no longer be considered to have a separate AP tier compared to the "mainline" verse. I have struggled to find the exact reasoning as to why they're even rated differently to begin with, given that the Note on the verse page explicitly says they're considered canon, so I think it's an "they have a different power portrayal compared to the mainline series" thing? Well, if that's the case, now all of them are actually decently close to one another, with Wario games being low end tier 7, DK being low end tier 6, and Mario being kind of in-between the two. In fact, them all having feats around this ballpark makes the general rating a lot more consistent. Even beforehand, I think in the last thread there was a bit of an agreement that they should be unsplit, I think we just forgot to do it.
The proposed Attack Potency tier for Mario characters that currently scale to 3-C (as well as Wario/DK/Paper Mario characters) is 6-C, with characters amplified by power-ups such as Giant Bowser reaching up to Low 6-B. If you are aware of any AP feats that you think might be worth calculating, please let me know of them. I myself am aware of a few others that I'm currently unsure how to calculate, listed in the blog itself).
Agreements (8 voting staff, 29 total): @Deagonx, @Serlock_Holmes, @MaidRips, @SamanPatou, @Eseseso, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Tllmbrg, @Apex_Predator_GX, @noninho, @Maverick_Zero_X, @KingTempest, @Damage3245, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Deidalius, @DarkDragonMedeus (Only with the merge), @Lou_change, @Giannysmag, @TMaakkonen, @Magicomethkuon, @Shadyboi0, @Seol404, @ImmortalDread, @Cropfist, @Prime2024, @Matthew_Schroeder @Blunt_Claw, @MusicRelaxing, @Eficiente, @EliminatorVenom, @Lonkitt,
Neutral/Agree (4): @koopa3144, @JJSliderman, @thetechmaster36, @Dust_Collector
Neutral (2): @Kirbonic_Pikmin, @Maizesoup (Agrees with merge and the scaling being circular, neutral regarding the tier)
Neutral/Disagree:
Disagreements (1 voting staff, 11 total): @Adem_Warlock69, @DarkDragonMedeus (With the AP downgrade), @Foxthefox1000, @StretchSebe, @ZespeonGalaxy, @StretchSebe, @CloverDragon03, @y3p_owo, @Uuber1 @Starbrand_Fan, @CrackerVolley
Thank you for for your time. Here is a picture of the silly bird from WarioWare. Also I want to note something, I am not tackling Lifting Strength or Speed here- I presently don't have educated opinions on those ratings, though it isn't impossible that I may try to revise them in the future. I may however do P&A revisions for the verse in the future, mostly improving secondary files and maybe making new ones.
The Argument
The crux of my argument, as it was last time, is to prove that the current Galaxy level ratings for the Mario verse are an outlier, by showcasing a massive collection of anti-feats across the whole verse. In the same blog are a series of rebuttals to arguments that I expect people to bring up- please make sure to read that section before commenting. I know it's a bit long but I think it's important, obviously you're obviously allowed to disagree with what I say in that section, but please make sure you have read it before making arguments related to things it covers. I will not be responding to arguments that the blog covers already. (It has a few new arguments so even if you're familiar with the old thread, make sure to read it again)Also, since last time there was a bit of a disagreement regarding whether this many anti-feats would actually disprove the higher end ones, I would like to point to our Guidelines for Outliers:
- Is it a big jump or drop in power? Yes, undoubtedly. Mario's feats, and anti-feats, commonly hover from high tier 9 to tier 7, and to my knowledge there are at most three accepted cosmic feats that would scale to the main cast. Galaxy level is a massive jump from the verse's power portrayal, and it is contrasted by anti-feats extremely often.
- Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Yes, undoubtedly. Compared to the relative consistency of lower ratings (the tier I'm proposing has 10+ feats backing it up), I would definitely consider cosmic tiers "exceptional", and the series' power portrayal is clearly much lower than the profiles currently present, given the massive amount of anti-feats.
- Is the event unexplained and unjustified? Yes. Mario does grow in power in the RPGs, but that is contrasted by characters who do not go through such training being capable of keeping up with him both before and afterwards, implying the power increase to be relatively minor.
- Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? This is going to be a bit of a tangent, but yes.
- In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is (in base) capable of fighting foes that gain a massive power increase from Power Stars, despite some of them being already physically superior to him without need of buffs:
- Bowser, who is almost universally portrayed as superior, though comparable, to Mario, without need of upgrades, is the biggest example, but there are others. Mario even fights Giant Bowser in Galaxy/Galaxy 2 where his buff (Grand Star) is even superior to a Power Star's. Taken at face value, this would give us a scaling chain of: Mario =< Bowser << Power Star Bowser << Grand Star Bowser >= Mario, which obviously makes no sense.
- King Boo is fought in Mario 64 DS, and is such a powerful and prominently reoccurring villain that I don't think it's necessary to post scans of him being capable of easily threatening the cast in base.
- Eyerok is fought as a boss again in Mario Kart DS, and defeated in a very similar manner. Notably, he is destroyed, and releases no stars at all.
- King Bob-Omb/Big Bob-Omb serves as a boss battle in Mario Party 9, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Party Island Tour, Mario Kart DS and Mario & Luigi Paper Jam. In all of those games he is capable of threatening the main cast (sometimes several at once) without need of Power Stars.
- Not only that, but the portrayal of characters who are receiving this amp that is allegedly universal between one another is very inconsistent, as is Mario's scaling to them.
- Baron Brr, Wiggler, Bugaboom, Goomboss, King Kaliente, Major Burrows, Mandibug Stack, Topmaniac, Glamdozer can all be harmed normally.
- Big Bullies, Chill Bullies, Mr. I, Eyerok, Whomp King, Dino Piranha, Bouldergeist, Mega-Leg, Tarantox, Boomsday Machine, Digga-Leg, Gobblegut, Megahammer, Peewee Piranha, Rollodillo, Sorbetti and Squizzard are all too powerful for Mario to face directly, forcing him to exploit their weaknesses to deal damage.
- Big/King Bob-Omb is fought, but he seems to be treating this as more of a gentlemanly contest than a genuine fight, given that if you throw him off the top of the hill, he says that you must fight him with honor, considers the match null, and starts the fight again, seemingly having taken no actual damage. Additionally, he is capable of overpowering Mario with ease, and must be grabbed from behind, where he cannot reach, to lift him.
- Mario can straight-up one-shot Giant Piranha Plants amped by a Power Star.
- In conclusion: The scaling is broken for three reasons: First off, certain Bosses empowered by Power Stars are already capable of threatening the Mario cast without them, causing a scaling loop if Mario is simultaneously comparable to their Power Star AP and their base AP. Second, the power level of Power Star users is wildly variable, with Mario being capable of contending directly with enemies who are comparable to him even without the Stars (King Boo, possibly Goomboss), but needing to use trickery to defeat otherwise fodder enemies (Bullies, Mr. I). Third and most bizarre, Bowser can never be harmed in Mario 64, and must be tossed into explosives to win, but in the Galaxy/Galaxy 2 boss battles, where he has an allegedly stronger amp, Mario can hurt him directly, which is a massive inconsistency. The scaling being inconsistent is actually something VSBW used to support, we once rated Mario as 3-C only when amped, and he was only scaled to the rating in base when the 4-A feat got rejected.
- In 64 and Galaxy, Mario is (in base) capable of fighting foes that gain a massive power increase from Power Stars, despite some of them being already physically superior to him without need of buffs:
- Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Possibly, but this is not something I'm interested in arguing.
New Ratings & Un-Splitting The Verse
Last time, I believe one of the CRT's biggest flaws was that I failed to propose a new AP tier for the verse- this caused confusion and overall weakened my argument, so I have remedied that. Here is a blog in which I have a series of higher end calculations and feats for the Mario verse that hover around the tier 7 range. You may notice that this includes Wario and Donkey Kong feats, with Donkey Kong Country Returns' moon punch being the new main feat. I hate to tackle multiple arguments at once when they're so important, and potentially controversial, but I do truly believe it's necessary now: I believe Wario and Donkey Kong games should no longer be considered to have a separate AP tier compared to the "mainline" verse. I have struggled to find the exact reasoning as to why they're even rated differently to begin with, given that the Note on the verse page explicitly says they're considered canon, so I think it's an "they have a different power portrayal compared to the mainline series" thing? Well, if that's the case, now all of them are actually decently close to one another, with Wario games being low end tier 7, DK being low end tier 6, and Mario being kind of in-between the two. In fact, them all having feats around this ballpark makes the general rating a lot more consistent. Even beforehand, I think in the last thread there was a bit of an agreement that they should be unsplit, I think we just forgot to do it.
The proposed Attack Potency tier for Mario characters that currently scale to 3-C (as well as Wario/DK/Paper Mario characters) is 6-C, with characters amplified by power-ups such as Giant Bowser reaching up to Low 6-B. If you are aware of any AP feats that you think might be worth calculating, please let me know of them. I myself am aware of a few others that I'm currently unsure how to calculate, listed in the blog itself).
Please Note
I understand that this is an argument that a lot of people, myself included, feel very strongly about, so let's all please try to remain civil and have a pleasant, or at least polite, discussion. The original thread was filled with toxicity, and while I am not trying to shame the community for it, I am going to take steps to prevent that from happening again. The easiest way to do this would be to make this a Staff Discussion thread, but I dislike that idea, because the majority of the Mario supporter base is non-staff, and I wouldn't want to force them to jump through hoops to respond to my arguments. If necessary, however, I will thread-ban people, and even move the thread into Staff Discussion, if the overall atmosphere becomes too toxic.Agreements (8 voting staff, 29 total): @Deagonx, @Serlock_Holmes, @MaidRips, @SamanPatou, @Eseseso, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Tllmbrg, @Apex_Predator_GX, @noninho, @Maverick_Zero_X, @KingTempest, @Damage3245, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Deidalius, @DarkDragonMedeus (Only with the merge), @Lou_change, @Giannysmag, @TMaakkonen, @Magicomethkuon, @Shadyboi0, @Seol404, @ImmortalDread, @Cropfist, @Prime2024, @Matthew_Schroeder @Blunt_Claw, @MusicRelaxing, @Eficiente, @EliminatorVenom, @Lonkitt,
Neutral/Agree (4): @koopa3144, @JJSliderman, @thetechmaster36, @Dust_Collector
Neutral (2): @Kirbonic_Pikmin, @Maizesoup (Agrees with merge and the scaling being circular, neutral regarding the tier)
Neutral/Disagree:
Disagreements (1 voting staff, 11 total): @Adem_Warlock69, @DarkDragonMedeus (With the AP downgrade), @Foxthefox1000, @StretchSebe, @ZespeonGalaxy, @StretchSebe, @CloverDragon03, @y3p_owo, @Uuber1 @Starbrand_Fan, @CrackerVolley
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