Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

[Comicgyal]

Well until then the mftl+ upgrades for their base forms, scaling to Jeanne as well is agreed on. I’m sure the tier will be fine, but I guess we’ll see what scaling issues they bring up.

I think I’ll make another CRT after this to discuss some items, and a possible key for umbran witches / lumen sages. It’ll be short, but the crt for for god tiers will be much longer.

Oh I wanted to know how you get added to the knowledgeable member of a verse page?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also Balder is missing his elemntal powers from his swords and his timestop instead of time slow

 

[Comicgyal]

Gotcha

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

While I don't disagree with base Bayo 1 being 3-A, I have my questions about Base Bayo 2 being 3-A, possibly 2-C.

Base Bayo 2 fighting and beating Demon Rodin seems to be the main feat to justify possibly 2-C and fighting with Aesir for an extended period of time seems to be supporting evidence.

Demon Rodin is stated to be the most feared demon in inferno, hence him scaling above Sheba, but it's never made clear if Sheba is in her weakened state or her full power state, as this is never made clear. There's really no evidence to tip it one way or another. This is the same case with Angel Rodin who we don't know if he scales to full power or weakened Jubileus.

While I do personally agree that Base Bayo 2 should be somewhat comparable to Aesir, many others on this wiki clearly do not. Hell, Base Bayo 2 scaling to even Loptr was put into question. Base Bayo 2 was downgraded to High 6-A just a few months ago by @Theglassman12 because her scaling to Loptr was questioned.

Suggested compromise:

Upgrade Base Bayo 2 via upscaling from Base Bayo 1 and from matching Demon Rodin who's at least 3-A. That would make the lowball scaling chart look like this:

Angel Rodin =< Weakened Jub = Weakened Sheba =< Demon Rodin

Angel Rodin < Base Bayo 1 Cereza/Balder < Single Eye holders > Weakened Jub

Demon Rodin < Base Bayo 2 Cereza/Balder < Single Eye holders <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Full Power Jubileus = Full Power Sheba =< Aesir =< Omne

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Crimson_Shadow101 People disagred with it due to a mix of blind FRAing and a lack of opportunity to bring up any of the evidence that we have now

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Apologies for my possible ignorance but what new evidence do we have now that we didn't have then?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Apologies for my possible ignorance but what new evidence do we have now that we didn't have then?

Honestly pretty much everything Comcgyal has brought up, before this i wasnt even aware that there was a guidebook for the verse lol

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Anything specific that could be laid out that shows that Angel/Demon Rodin scales to full power Jub/Sheba or that base Bayo 2 accurately scales to Aesir?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The fact that she did visible damage to him in their fight, as evidenced by him being in immaculate condition at the start and by the time loki erased the eyes to depower him he had chunks of armor taken out of him

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm aware that she did visible damage, but what I'm worried about is a downgrade thread being started after the upgrades where someone points to the 3 loptr fights and goes "Aesir fight is an outlier" resulting in bayo going back down to scaling up from Bayo 1 base.

 

[Comicgyal]

While I don't disagree with base Bayo 1 being 3-A, I have my questions about Base Bayo 2 being 3-A, possibly 2-C.

Base Bayo 2 fighting and beating Demon Rodin seems to be the main feat to justify possibly 2-C and fighting with Aesir for an extended period of time seems to be supporting evidence.

Demon Rodin is stated to be the most feared demon in inferno, hence him scaling above Sheba, but it's never made clear if Sheba is in her weakened state or her full power state, as this is never made clear. There's really no evidence to tip it one way or another. This is the same case with Angel Rodin who we don't know if he scales to full power or weakened Jubileus.

While I do personally agree that Base Bayo 2 should be somewhat comparable to Aesir, many others on this wiki clearly do not. Hell, Base Bayo 2 scaling to even Loptr was put into question. Base Bayo 2 was downgraded to High 6-A just a few months ago by @Theglassman12 because her scaling to Loptr was questioned.

Suggested compromise:

Upgrade Base Bayo 2 via upscaling from Base Bayo 1 and from matching Demon Rodin who's at least 3-A. That would make the lowball scaling chart look like this:

Angel Rodin =< Weakened Jub = Weakened Sheba =< Demon Rodin

Angel Rodin < Base Bayo 1 Cereza/Balder < Single Eye holders > Weakened Jub

Demon Rodin < Base Bayo 2 Cereza/Balder < Single Eye holders <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Full Power Jubileus = Full Power Sheba =< Aesir =< Omne

Hard disagree. It’s very clear that Rodin scales to their stronger forms, why would he be scaled to their “Weakened” versions?

Queen Sheba doesn’t have a “Weakened” state to begin with really, which is why I disagree with her vs battle profile. Queen Sheba doesn’t need an “Eye” to be summoned, her entire existence is a mystery besides her scaling to the other god tiers. I guess you could say Bayonetta summoned a weaker version of her, but that doesn’t have anything to do with Rodin or his scaling to her.

“When the cosmos was split into light, darkness, and the chaos in-between, the incredibly powerful Sheba was born alongside the darkness controlling the world of Inferno. She lives in the hellish land, and is often classified as a demon; however, the full details of her existence are unknown”

The eyes of the world were not split between the gods. Jubileus can only do her major feat with the eyes, but Aesir was the one who created and gave them away to the humans. Sheba doesn’t have an eye, and therefore doesn’t have a “Weaker” form without them. Rodin scales to her strongest version, as that’s the only version she canonically has.

Rodin scaling to weakened jubes makes no sense either, and he’s pretty much said to be stronger than them. The art book calls him the “Pimp of paradiso.” And he’s stated to be the strongest in the verse twice. Him scaling to Jubileus with one eye doesn’t make sense, because that’s just how she was resurrected. If we’re going by canon, in the beginning of time Jubileus had both eyes. That’s what he scales to.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm aware that she did visible damage, but what I'm worried about is a downgrade thread being started after the upgrades where someone points to the 3 loptr fights and goes "Aesir fight is an outlier" resulting in bayo going back down to scaling up from Bayo 1 base.

Aesir fight isn’t being used for tier scaling, only speed scaling since she kept up with him. You can’t really debunk that.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Aesir fight isn’t being used for tier scaling, only speed scaling since she kept up with him. You can’t really debunk that.

"Realistically it doesn't make sense for two "6-A" characters, to keep pace with full powered Aesir long enough for the eyes to be erased."

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Realistically it doesn't make sense for two "6-A" characters, to keep pace with full powered Aesir long enough for the eyes to be erased."

I mean they very clearly did, there are even cutscenes in the fight itself that shows bayo and balder being able to keep pace with him even if they arent as strong, plus balder intercepting attacks from aesir in the cutscene leading up to it

 

[Comicgyal]

"Realistically it doesn't make sense for two "6-A" characters, to keep pace with full powered Aesir long enough for the eyes to be erased."

That’s just to show how bs the rating we had was. In my tier list I didn’t scale their base forms to Aesir, or else that’d completely shit on my next upgrade for him. They hit his clothing a few time, a scratch here or there, they did alright but it’s just for speed.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Rodin scaling to weakened jubes makes no sense either, and he’s pretty much said to be stronger than them. The art book calls him the “Pimp of paradiso.” And he’s stated to be the strongest in the verse twice. Him scaling to Jubileus with one eye doesn’t make sense, because that’s just how she was resurrected. If we’re going by canon, in the beginning of time Jubileus had both eyes. That’s what he scales to.

Angel Rodin scaling to full power Jubileus creates even bigger problems since that would mean that Left Eye Bayo is somehow weaker than Base Bayo 1.

 

[Comicgyal]

Angel Rodin scaling to full power Jubileus creates even bigger problems since that would mean that Left Eye Bayo is somehow weaker than Base Bayo 1.

Not really? Can you explain that? Because bayonetta pretty much shit on Jubileus in their fight. Even in the cutscenes there’s no back and forth, she’s getting ragged on.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Not really? Can you explain that? Because bayonetta pretty much shit on Jubileus in their fight. Even in the cutscenes there’s no back and forth, she’s getting ragged on.

If Jubileus crashes into a planet after the Sheba punch, she flies back and kills you.

 

[Comicgyal]

That’s not too sound of an argument, because up until that point Jubileus is beat pretty badly. They’re on pretty much the same scaling, but from what happens before you the player guides her into a planet, Bayonetta has the edge.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

That’s not too sound of an argument, because up until that point Jubileus is beat pretty badly. They’re on pretty much the same scaling, but from what happens before you the player guides her into a planet, Bayonetta has the edge.

Yes, she has the edge because of her ridiculous hax and her superior fighting skills. They're still essentially equal to each other in terms of AP.

 

[Cyberblader90]

You can probably argue her killing bayo doesn't make any sense considering at that point she currently has Sheba summoned

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah I agree, which is why their tiers will be the same for those forms. However Bayonetta is still slightly stronger, so it lines up.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

You can probably argue her killing bayo doesn't make any sense considering at that point she currently has Sheba summoned

Summons return to inferno near immediately after serving their purpose. Sheba doesn't make Jub flying back and killing bayo invalid.

 

[Comicgyal]

Summons return to inferno near immediately after serving their purpose. Sheba doesn't make Jub flying back and killing bayo invalid.

Her being sent flying was literally just a few moments before Sheba was summoned. I really doubt she went back that quickly, because you have to keep in mind just how fast Jubileus was sent flying.

Though it’s a redundant thing to argue. Overall her one eye form > weakened Jubileus one eye, that much is undeniable.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm going to sleep for the night, I'll come back to this later.

 

[Comicgyal]

Alright. Though I’d rather not draw this out much longer than it has to be. The upgrades have been pretty much agreed upon by everyone, I’d like to close this thread soon.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

You might as well remove the word "mini" from the title since this is essentially a complete rework of the scaling chart for the high tiers and the god tiers of the verse from this reply:

Hard disagree. It’s very clear that Rodin scales to their stronger forms, why would he be scaled to their “Weakened” versions?

Queen Sheba doesn’t have a “Weakened” state to begin with really, which is why I disagree with her vs battle profile. Queen Sheba doesn’t need an “Eye” to be summoned, her entire existence is a mystery besides her scaling to the other god tiers. I guess you could say Bayonetta summoned a weaker version of her, but that doesn’t have anything to do with Rodin or his scaling to her.

“When the cosmos was split into light, darkness, and the chaos in-between, the incredibly powerful Sheba was born alongside the darkness controlling the world of Inferno. She lives in the hellish land, and is often classified as a demon; however, the full details of her existence are unknown”

The eyes of the world were not split between the gods. Jubileus can only do her major feat with the eyes, but Aesir was the one who created and gave them away to the humans. Sheba doesn’t have an eye, and therefore doesn’t have a “Weaker” form without them. Rodin scales to her strongest version, as that’s the only version she canonically has.

Rodin scaling to weakened jubes makes no sense either, and he’s pretty much said to be stronger than them. The art book calls him the “Pimp of paradiso.” And he’s stated to be the strongest in the verse twice. Him scaling to Jubileus with one eye doesn’t make sense, because that’s just how she was resurrected. If we’re going by canon, in the beginning of time Jubileus had both eyes. That’s what he scales to.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Her being sent flying was literally just a few moments before Sheba was summoned. I really doubt she went back that quickly, because you have to keep in mind just how fast Jubileus was sent flying.

Though it’s a redundant thing to argue. Overall her one eye form > weakened Jubileus one eye, that much is undeniable.

Her left eye key is > weakened Jubileus, I'm not arguing against that, but they're still somewhat comparable with each other regardless.

The difference between the full power gods is THOUSANDS of times above the single eye holders. It makes absolutely zero sense for Base Bayo 1 to scale to the full power gods, if her left eye key which should be a power amp, can be harmed by a weakened Jubileus. Bayo having Sheba summoned is not reasonable to downplay and ignore Jubileus flying back and causing a game over.

 

[Comicgyal]

Her left eye key is > weakened Jubileus, I'm not arguing against that, but they're still somewhat comparable with each other regardless.

The difference between the full power gods is THOUSANDS of times above the single eye holders. It makes absolutely zero sense for Base Bayo 1 to scale to the full power gods, if her left eye key which should be a power amp, can be harmed by a weakened Jubileus. Bayo having Sheba summoned is not reasonable to downplay and ignore Jubileus flying back and causing a game over.

I know, both of their eye forms have the same scaling. But you’re saying that her eye is weaker because Jubileus can kill her, yet the entire fight is in Bayonettas favor up until she’s sent flying.

Base Bayo 1 is being scaled to universal low ball, her base 2 is getting the low Multiverse scaling + her eye form. It’s not impossible, because reminder only 2 of the gods actively use the eye of the world anyways.
Jubileus flying back to kill bayo makes no sense, because at that point she is just a soul, and would need to get back into her body (That is currently falling down to earth.) then Beat Bayonetta (Which she couldn’t do before) who can summon Sheba again at anytime.

It’s unrealistic, and at that point it really is gameplay mechanic induced because you HAVE to purposely guide her into a planet for that to even happen. I guess you’re also saying fodder angels > Bayonetta because they can kill her too??

 

[Comicgyal]

You might as well remove the word "mini" from the title since this is essentially a complete rework of the scaling chart for the high tiers and the god tiers of the verse from this reply

Not really, because there’s no intention to rework their profiles from this thread, only Bayonetta and Balders. Their rework would come afterwards.

 

[Comicgyal]

Scaling is never going to be perfect, Bayonetta is already pretty ambiguous as is.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I know, both of their eye forms have the same scaling. But you’re saying that her eye is weaker because Jubileus can kill her, yet the entire fight is in Bayonettas favor up until she’s sent flying.

Jubileus flying back to kill bayo makes no sense, because at that point she is just a soul, and would need to get back into her body (That is currently falling down to earth.) the. Beat Bayonetta (Which she couldn’t do before) who can summon Sheba again at anytime.

It’s unrealistic, and at that point it really is gameplay mechanic induced because you HAVE to purposely guide her into a planet for that to even happen. I guess you’re also saying fodder angels > Bayonetta because they can kill her too??

There is nothing that indicates that left eye bayo would be thousands of times above weakened Jubileus is all I'm saying. Jubileus being a soul is also no reason to downplay. Fodder angels are in gameplay. Jubileus flying back and causing a game over is a CUTSCENE, which is much different than dying in gameplay. False equivalency.

Base Bayo 1 is being scaled to universal low ball, her base 2 is getting the low Multiverse scaling + her eye form. It’s not impossible, because reminder only 2 of the gods actively use the eye of the world anyways.

Were you not just arguing last night that Angel Rodin scales to full power Jubileus?

 

[Comicgyal]

There is nothing that indicates that left eye bayo would be thousands of times above weakened Jubileus is all I'm saying. Jubileus being a soul is also no reason to downplay. Fodder angels are in gameplay. Jubileus flying back and causing a game over is a CUTSCENE, which is much different than dying in gameplay. False equivalency.


Were you not just arguing last night that Angel Rodin scales to full power Jubileus?

If you fall off a platform in certain parts of the game, an angel comes, eats you, and you get a game over screen. It’s literally the same thing, just gameplay. I don’t see how you don’t think eye bayo > left eye jubileus, when we both agreed yesterday that Bayo had the leverage in the fight. Left eye jubileus wasn’t even resurrected properly (she’s supposed to resurrect in paradiso) Bayonetta is inherently much more powerful.

I just said lowball, incase you don’t agree with Angel Rodin > Jubileus.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

If you fall off a platform in certain parts of the game, an angel comes, eats you, and you get a game over screen. It’s literally the same thing, just gameplay. I don’t see how you don’t think eye bayo > left eye jubileus, when we both agreed yesterday that Bayo had the leverage in the fight. Left eye jubileus wasn’t even resurrected properly (she’s supposed to resurrect in paradiso) Bayonetta is inherently much more powerful.

I just said lowball, incase you don’t agree with Angel Rodin > Jubileus.

I never disagreed that Bayo was in control of the fight against weakened Jubileus. All I am saying is that nothing hints at left eye bayo being THOUSANDS of times above weakened Jubileus.

 

[Comicgyal]

I never disagreed that Bayo was in control of the fight against weakened Jubileus. All I am saying is that nothing hints at left eye bayo being THOUSANDS of times above weakened Jubileus.

I know that. However your original argument was Left Jubileus > Right eye bayo, because she can “Kill” her if you mess up, despite Bayonetta being In control of the entire fight. Bayo being “thousands” of times stronger than Jubileus is just putting numbers where they don’t need to be. She’s stronger and more skilled than that Jubileus, we both agreed on that. So it’s unrealistic that Jubileus can kill her.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I know that. However your original argument was Left Jubileus > Right eye bayo, because she can “Kill” her if you mess up, despite Bayonetta being In control of the entire fight. Bayo being “thousands” of times stronger than Jubileus is just putting numbers where they don’t need to be. She’s stronger and more skilled than that Jubileus, we both agreed on that. So it’s unrealistic that Jubileus can kill her.

Me bringing up Jubileus killing bayo was just to show that they're at least somewhat near each other. All I'm getting at is that Angel Rodin scaling to full power Jubileus creates concerning scaling issues.

 

[Comicgyal]

Me bringing up Jubileus killing bayo was just to show that they're at least somewhat near each other. All I'm getting at is that Angel Rodin scaling to full power Jubileus creates concerning scaling issues.

I know, they are similar, however Bayo was controlling that fight the entire time.

For the sake of scaling compromise, we can say Angel Rodin is weaker than full power Jubileus, and simply make base Bayo and Balder high 3-A.

 

[Comicgyal]

Any further comment from anyone? Or is it fine to start applying upgrades?

 

[Comicgyal]

Bump.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I know, they are similar, however Bayo was controlling that fight the entire time.

For the sake of scaling compromise, we can say Angel Rodin is weaker than full power Jubileus, and simply make base Bayo and Balder high 3-A.

He is weaker than Full Power Jubileus though

Why would that make them high 3-A?