Transdual Bayonetta

[Comicgyal]

Alright I’m back, after this I’ll try and find more staff, or I’m just going to apply upgrades with the approvals we have now.

And no, I think it does. With the reasoning above here, Loptr could possibly be using time hax to attack Loki in similar fashion as Loki's restoration of past construction.

We’d need explicit proof of this, not a “This could possibly be the case.” We know that Loki has restoration powers and can view remembrances, but Loki himself never attacks through them, or even implies that can be used in that manner. They’re just memories that he can view, not portals into the past. While Loptr does have time manipulative abilities, this would not be the answer.

It should matter. Cause from what we see of Loptr's attack on Loki, the case here is not

Character A being in the present attacking Character B from 500 years in the past (Which is immeasurable if done purely through speed without any use of hax)

since it is just

Character A from 500 years in the past attacking Character B in the future present (Which really isn't immeasurable). An attack acting in the same direction of how linear time should flow. Not going the opposite direction.

Your comparison changes nothing cause you're technically saying the exact same requirement this "feat" needs with a tiny bit of rephrasing. In fact, this is a really weird sentence I'm reading here.

Both of these are immeasurable, so it doesn’t matter.

One way for Loptr's attacks to be possibly credible for immeasurable speed is if we treat it as being able to move fast enough to just "skip past a time period" from past to future present instantaneously. And through pure speed only.

And even if that were the case, and even if Loptr didn't activate the RoT, he is still using the ones Loki made against himself to try and harm his other half. Especially if Loki can activate such past restoration by throwing his cards at the RoTs as though they are tangible objects. What makes it an exception that Loptr can't do something similar and backfire it on Loki?

Loki didn’t make anything. These are all remembrances that were made by aesir that Loki is now seeing. Lokis ability to bring those memories to the present, would be entirely different from Loptr attacking Loki through a remembrance.

Loptr did not see these remembrances as traps, he is simply attacking Loki as he’s viewing them, due to being aware of himself across all time. Not any time manipulation stuff here, because it’s nothing implying that Loptr is using his time powers to attack Loki.

 

[Eficiente]

Immeasurable

For starters, immeasurable speed was removed from the profiles. I’m unsure why, but it will be placed back to its old justification found here. But on another note, we can improve upon it.

Here, and here, Loptr attacks his present self from hundreds of years into the past. The projection is called a “Remembrance of Time” which allows Loki to peer into the past. While doing this, his past self (who is quite the transcendent being) attacked him from that point. This is immeasurable attack speed and reactions for Loptr, Loki, and anyone who upscales.

Was called to evaluate but don't know the verse. I can't really evaluate as I would be going off your word, the evidence needs to construct what you say on its own, so please do that. If anything, the use of a clock's handles moving there to me implies that time was moving when the projection came in and attacked (Not Imme. speed), because why wouldn't any random person seeing this believe that.

 

[Comicgyal]

Was called to evaluate but don't know the verse. I can't really evaluate as I would be going off your word, the evidence needs to construct what you say on its own, so please do that. If anything, the use of a clock's handles moving there to me implies that time was moving when the projection came in and attacked (Not Imme. speed), because why wouldn't any random person seeing this believe that.

I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that the projections attack from the past to the present, is not immeasurable speed because time was flowing for them in the present?

 

[Eficiente]

I first of all said that the evidence you use needs to make one understand by themselves how the situation is. It's not proper to not have it be that way.

Aside from that, yes, from what I can see, time flows like normal in the point in time where the projection is.

 

[Comicgyal]

I first of all said that the evidence you use needs to make one understand by themselves how the situation is. It's not proper to not have it be that way.

Aside from that, yes, from what I can see, time flows like normal in the point in time where the projection is.

In what way does the evidence confuse you?

Also, can you explain to me how characters gain immeasurable attack speed by attacking through time then? I didn’t see anywhere in standards that time had to be irregular of some sort, for feats like this to classify as immeasurable in the FAQ. Maybe I missed it?

 

[Eficiente]

The evidence of anything we give needs to allow any random person to conclude the same we claimed the evidence is used for, even removing the part where they read beforehand what we claimed what the evidence shows. I see a guy attacking another character and Bayo is standing there.

How we have Immeasurable speed is pretty bad right now. But, any feat of Immeasurable via attacking through time can always be Time Travel, they need to get past certain standards for this to not be the case, and time flowing as the would-be Immeasurable characters take actions demolishes the idea that "they're so fast, they have infinite speed that they can use at any point in time, doing the latter at infinite speed too just like they can move across space at infinite speed". Now, reasons can be given to justify this, we know it's not impossible, but they're not standards for nothing, it means that it's immensely less likely that those reasons are valid as per common sense.

 

[Asdtgh]

We’d need explicit proof of this, not a “This could possibly be the case.” We know that Loki has restoration powers and can view remembrances, but Loki himself never attacks through them, or even implies that can be used in that manner. They’re just memories that he can view, not portals into the past. While Loptr does have time manipulative abilities, this would not be the answer.

Same with assuming young Loptr not needing RoTs to attack Loki via Immeasurable speed. Cause you yourself are assuming that Loptr does not require a Remembrance to even reach Loki, therefore we might as well have explicit proof that he can indeed attack him without a Remembrance, a depiction of him being able to tackle Loki whenever and wherever without a RoT ever present.

And besides, the explicit proof I've already shown is the RoT Bayonetta uses to be able to piece back a Memorial Place. And here, something I'll admit I forgot (after a long time from looking up Bayonetta lore) and you forgot from our last bout. Loptr using a RoT.

Both of these are immeasurable, so it doesn’t matter.

No, no it isn't. And it matters, especially when it comes to the question at hand, are we all not clearly seeing a time hax-supported attack?

Loki didn’t make anything. These are all remembrances that were made by aesir that Loki is now seeing. Lokis ability to bring those memories to the present, would be entirely different from Loptr attacking Loki through a remembrance.

Fine, I said it wrongly. Loki uses the RoT, same should be applied with Loptr. Besides, if Loki can bring these memories to the present, would that not also apply to the attack that was sent at him centuries ago since it, too, is a part of the memory? Especially when this ability to see and control RoTs are not something easy for Loki to control, judging from the episodic migraines he keeps having.

Loptr did not see these remembrances as traps, he is simply attacking Loki as he’s viewing them, due to being aware of himself across all time. Not any time manipulation stuff here, because it’s nothing implying that Loptr is using his time powers to attack Loki.

Never considered them as traps, but something he can take advantage of.

Having a nigh-omniscience awareness of Loki does not affect his speed whatsover.

And you cannot be serious about ignoring the obvious time manipulation cases as seen in so many moments of Loki using his powers. And again, Loptr can use the RoT as he himself stated, a being born out of Aesir.

 

[Comicgyal]

Same with assuming young Loptr not needing RoTs to attack Loki via Immeasurable speed. Cause you yourself are assuming that Loptr does not require a Remembrance to even reach Loki, therefore we might as well have explicit proof that he can indeed attack him without a Remembrance, a depiction of him being able to tackle Loki whenever and wherever without a RoT ever present.

And besides, the explicit proof I've already shown is the RoT Bayonetta uses to be able to piece back a Memorial Place. And here, something I'll admit I forgot (after a long time from looking up Bayonetta lore) and you forgot from our last bout. Loptr using a RoT.

We can only go off of what we’re shown, and the context surrounding it. Again, they’re just memories at the end of the day. He can’t use a memory to attack Loki, unless that happened during the past, or if the memory is some sort of portal into the past, which they aren’t.

Also, we can’t say if this is a remembrance, or just a telepathic attack, so it should not be used. Bayonetta collecting those remnants isn’t the same as what Loki does.

Fine, I said it wrongly. Loki uses the RoT, same should be applied with Loptr. Besides, if Loki can bring these memories to the present, would that not also apply to the attack that was sent at him centuries ago since it, too, is a part of the memory? Especially when this ability to see and control RoTs are not something easy for Loki to control, judging from the episodic migraines he keeps having.

No, because Loki was not in the past, so he’s not viewing an attack that was sent st him before. Don’t see where his migraines come into play here— he has amnesia, and is constantly being reminded of his past all at once.

Never considered them as traps, but something he can take advantage of.

Having a nigh-omniscience awareness of Loki does not affect his speed whatsover.

And you cannot be serious about ignoring the obvious time manipulation cases as seen in so many moments of Loki using his powers. And again, Loptr can use the RoT as he himself stated, a being born out of Aesir.

Loptr was not nigh omniscient at that point, but he is temporally aware, which allowed him to attack loki when he noticed loki from the future looming at a past memory of him.

Time manipulation is a given, but I’m not in agreement with saying Loptrs attack is time manipulation.

 

[Comicgyal]

Will get to efi tomorrow.

 

[Asdtgh]

We can only go off of what we’re shown, and the context surrounding it. Again, they’re just memories at the end of the day. He can’t use a memory to attack Loki, unless that happened during the past, or if the memory is some sort of portal into the past, which they aren’t.

And it is through these memories Loki is even able to reverse the damages of structures within Noatun. Via Time Manipulation. It is as painfully obvious as it already is that the RoTs, be it portals or "just memories", played a role with how young Loptr's attacks are delivered to Loki. These two instances where he attacked Loki involves the RoTs we clearly see, and it is as clear as water that the presence of the RoTs is not coincidental; they have a double-edged sword case of a purpose to be backfired on Loki.

Again, we never see Loptr attacking Loki without his projectiles going through a RoT to reach Loki at all.

Also, we can’t say if this is a remembrance, or just a telepathic attack, so it should not be used.

Loptr literally admitted that it is a Remembrance of Time at the end of the flashback.

Bayonetta collecting those remnants isn’t the same as what Loki does.

It is. The RoT literally allows Bayonetta to identify the Umbra Witch's gravestone way back then and restore it to its original structure. Just like Loki.

No, because Loki was not in the past, so he’s not viewing an attack that was sent st him before.

Then what is the attack projectile is he even viewing through the RoT he opened up? The one that Loptr oh so coincidentally fired at the RoT twice centuries ago?

You're not making any sense at this point.

Don’t see where his migraines come into play here— he has amnesia, and is constantly being reminded of his past all at once.

Have you already forgotten all of the times Loki had a headache, something he admits? And that it literally forced him to open up a RoT? So. Many. Times? Because that's what makes him remember from his amnesia, a painful mental recollection of his past to gain the knowledge he needs to get to Fimbulventr and for Bayonetta to reach the real gates of Hell.

Why are you being like this today?

Loptr was not nigh omniscient at that point, but he is temporally aware, which allowed him to attack loki when he noticed loki from the future looming at a past memory of him.

Won't mean anything for Immeasurable speeds whatsoever.

Time manipulation is a given, but I’m not in agreement with saying Loptrs attack is time manipulation.

Then tough luck, cause it clearly isn't through speed alone. At. All.

 

[ZXareo]

And it is through these memories Loki is even able to reverse the damages of structures within Noatun. Via Time Manipulation. It is as painfully obvious as it already is that the RoTs, be it portals or "just memories", played a role with how young Loptr's attacks are delivered to Loki. These two instances where he attacked Loki involves the RoTs we clearly see, and it is as clear as water that the presence of the RoTs is not coincidental; they have a double-edged sword case of a purpose to be backfired on Loki.

Again, we never see Loptr attacking Loki without his projectiles going through a RoT to reach Loki at all.

Loptr literally admitted that it is a Remembrance of Time at the end of the flashback.

It is. The RoT literally allows Bayonetta to identify the Umbra Witch's gravestone way back then and restore it to its original structure. Just like Loki.

Then what is the attack projectile is he even viewing through the RoT he opened up? The one that Loptr oh so coincidentally fired at the RoT twice centuries ago?

You're not making any sense at this point.

Have you already forgotten all of the times Loki had a headache, something he admits? And that it literally forced him to open up a RoT? So. Many. Times? Because that's what makes him remember from his amnesia, a painful mental recollection of his past to gain the knowledge he needs to get to Fimbulventr and for Bayonetta to reach the real gates of Hell.

Why are you being like this today?

Won't mean anything for Immeasurable speeds whatsoever.

Then tough luck, cause it clearly isn't through speed alone. At. All.

Just to clarify, are you asserting that Loptr is using Time Hax to hit Loki, or that he's using the Remembrance of Time to? Or that they're one in the same?

 

[Asdtgh]

Just to clarify, are you asserting that Loptr is using Time Hax to hit Loki, or that he's using the Remembrance of Time to? Or that they're one in the same?

They're one in the same. How else do you think Loki could reverse the damages in Noatun, as well as Bayonetta for the Umbra Witch Resting Places?

 

[Comicgyal]

And it is through these memories Loki is even able to reverse the damages of structures within Noatun. Via Time Manipulation. It is as painfully obvious as it already is that the RoTs, be it portals or "just memories", played a role with how young Loptr's attacks are delivered to Loki. These two instances where he attacked Loki involves the RoTs we clearly see, and it is as clear as water that the presence of the RoTs is not coincidental; they have a double-edged sword case of a purpose to be backfired on Loki.

Again, we never see Loptr attacking Loki without his projectiles going through a RoT to reach Loki at all.

All of this does not matter. Whether he has attacked Loki without a remembrance or with one, the existence of the remembrance itself does not deny immeasurable speed.

Loptr literally admitted that it is a Remembrance of Time at the end of the flashback.

That’s fine, they’re just memories after all.

It is. The RoT literally allows Bayonetta to identify the Umbra Witch's gravestone way back then and restore it to its original structure. Just like Loki.

It’s not. The remembrances that Loki views are static images similar to movie frames, that are imprinted on reality, sort of like a picture. The thing Bayonetta interacts with is nothing like that lol. And she can’t interact with remembrances like how loki does, and is not shown to.

Then what is the attack projectile is he even viewing through the RoT he opened up? The one that Loptr oh so coincidentally fired at the RoT twice centuries ago?

You're not making any sense at this point.

The projectile he’s viewing, is the one that Loptr is firing at him from the past. It shouldn’t be so difficult to grasp. Loptr didn’t coincidentally shoot one in the past, and Loptr just caught it in the present. He shot it from the past as soon as Loki viewed his past self.

Have you already forgotten all of the times Loki had a headache, something he admits? And that it literally forced him to open up a RoT? So. Many. Times? Because that's what makes him remember from his amnesia, a painful mental recollection of his past to gain the knowledge he needs to get to Fimbulventr and for Bayonetta to reach the real gates of Hell.

Why are you being like this today?

Again, why does this matter? I just said he had amnesia, and was getting his memories back hence the migraines. This means nothing to Immeasurable speed and should be dropped.

Then tough luck, cause it clearly isn't through speed alone. At. All.

I mean, to you, I guess.

 

[Comicgyal]

How we have Immeasurable speed is pretty bad right now. But, any feat of Immeasurable via attacking through time can always be Time Travel, they need to get past certain standards for this to not be the case, and time flowing as the would-be Immeasurable characters take actions demolishes the idea that "they're so fast, they have infinite speed that they can use at any point in time, doing the latter at infinite speed too just like they can move across space at infinite speed". Now, reasons can be given to justify this, we know it's not impossible, but they're not standards for nothing, it means that it's immensely less likely that those reasons are valid as per common sense.

So what are those other standards in question? Because the character who accomplished that feat does have infinite speed. Also is what you’re proposing something that’s going to be added to the page? I think time not moving normally as a standard is pretty important to be there.

 

[Asdtgh]

All of this does not matter. Whether he has attacked Loki without a remembrance or with one, the existence of the remembrance itself does not deny immeasurable speed.

Oh it does. Unless you have better proof that the attacks aren't at all supported by time hax, this is a counter-argument you haven't denied, just ignored.

That’s fine, they’re just memories after all.

They're not just memories but visions of Aesir. Visions that can depict not just the history of everyone but also their presents and futures in their entirety.

Including the present Loki and Bayonetta are in. Maybe even the visions young Loptr probably use to attack Loki through, as proven as to how Loptr can even see him from the past. Like an in-and-out portal.

It’s not. The remembrances that Loki views are static images similar to movie frames, that are imprinted on reality, sort of like a picture. The thing Bayonetta interacts with is nothing like that lol. And she can’t interact with remembrances like how loki does, and is not shown to.

And since Aesir's visions have been literally stated to form everything in the Human World as it is, would anything that has been stated to be a vision of the truth/Remembrance of Time be anything but only the "TV screens" we commonly see? Especially when the lore and Bayonetta themselves stated the reflection of the Umbra Witch Resting Places are indeed RoTs?

No matter how different the method is, despite the way the Umbra Witch Resting Place was restored being almost the exact same way as Loki repairing a bunch of stairs, there has been a consistent case of time manipulation via the visions of Aesir. Something Loptr has downright been proven to be capble of using.

The projectile he’s viewing, is the one that Loptr is firing at him from the past. It shouldn’t be so difficult to grasp. Loptr didn’t coincidentally shoot one in the past, and Loptr just caught it in the present. He shot it from the past as soon as Loki viewed his past self.

I'm not saying he had two lucky shots, I'm saying he had fired his projectile directly at the RoT that Loki uses to bring restorations from the past, which should include the attacks Loptr throws.

Again, why does this matter? I just said he had amnesia, and was getting his memories back hence the migraines. This means nothing to Immeasurable speed and should be dropped.

Sure, as long as that includes firing at something that is, at this point, undeniably a time travelling portal being dropped since it isn't and hss never been a case of Immeasurable Speed.

I mean, to you, I guess.

Oh, I doubt I'm the only one who find your Immeasurable Speed scaling awfully flawed, and that includes your counter-arguments

 

[Comicgyal]

Oh it does. Unless you have better proof that the attacks aren't at all supported by time hax, this is a counter-argument you haven't denied, just ignored.

It is up to you to prove that it is through time hax, not the remembrance, but the attack itself. The remembrance is a view into the past, but you need to prove that Loptr is using time hax to attack Loki himself. Saying that attacking him through the remembrance that he didn’t even create = time hax is unfounded.

They're not just memories but visions of Aesir. Visions that can depict not just the history of everyone but also their presents and futures in their entirety.

Including the present Loki and Bayonetta are in. Maybe even the visions young Loptr probably use to attack Loki through, as proven as to how Loptr can even see him from the past. Like an in-and-out portal.

Unlikely, as Loptr is the only person who can see Loki in the future from the past. We’ve seen multiple remembrances so far, even in Bayonetta 3, and when viewing them the people from the past are not as temporally aware as Loptr is. They’re in an out portals. Loptr being aware of Loki has nothing to do with the remembrance, but his general transcendence over space time.

And since Aesir's visions have been literally stated to form everything in the Human World as it is, would anything that has been stated to be a vision of the truth/Remembrance of Time be anything but only the "TV screens" we commonly see? Especially when the lore and Bayonetta themselves stated the reflection of the Umbra Witch Resting Places are indeed RoTs?

No matter how different the method is, despite the way the Umbra Witch Resting Place was restored being almost the exact same way as Loki repairing a bunch of stairs, there has been a consistent case of time manipulation via the visions of Aesir. Something Loptr has downright been proven to be capble of using.

This is a false equivalency. You’re saying that because rots can be restored with time manipulation, and Loptr can also use view rots, that means his attack was also time manipulation. Despite Loptr not restoring anything, or utilizing a rot himself when the feat happened, only Loki. Loki was using time manipulation, there’s no evidence of Loptr doing the same.

I'm not saying he had two lucky shots, I'm saying he had fired his projectile directly at the RoT that Loki uses to bring restorations from the past, which should include the attacks Loptr throws.

Yeah, that’s what I said, and if that attack traveled from the past to present through sheer speed, it can fit criteria for immeasurable. The RoTs aren’t portals, so it can’t just be equated to in and out timehax.

Sure, as long as that includes firing at something that is, at this point, undeniably a time travelling portal being dropped since it isn't and hss never been a case of Immeasurable Speed.

Oh, I doubt I'm the only one who find your Immeasurable Speed scaling awfully flawed, and that includes your counter-arguments

Unless you have proof of someone using these portals to time travel, they’re not time traveling portals. We’ve seen time travel be used by Bayonetta, Loki, and Aesir, and they don’t use remembrances.

Also, I don’t see anyone else.

 

[Comicgyal]

This thread by minaj also explains things very well, I’d suggest looking over it. Rot are not portals, they’re visions. That would be like if you remembered something from your past in your head, and then it attacked you. It’s not a portal.

 

[Asdtgh]

It is up to you to prove that it is through time hax, not the remembrance, but the attack itself. The remembrance is a view into the past, but you need to prove that Loptr is using time hax to attack Loki himself. Saying that attacking him through the remembrance that he didn’t even create = time hax is unfounded.

Your own showcasing of the feats has him point-blank, in-your-face using the RoT to backfire against Loki. And it's also up to you to prove that Loptr, a being capable of manipulating the RoTs as a separated being of Aesir, does not need any time manipulation and use only his attack's speed to get from the past to the present (still not an immeasurable speed feat anyway).

Unlikely, as Loptr is the only person who can see Loki in the future from the past. We’ve seen multiple remembrances so far, even in Bayonetta 3, and when viewing them the people from the past are not as temporally aware as Loptr is. They’re in an out portals.

Pretty sure you're meant to say they're NOT in-and-out portals. Unless you're accidentally agreeing with me? But whatever.

And obviously they can't see them when they don't have Aesir's powers like Bayonetta, Loki and Loptr. (Might as well include Balder but considering he had been manipulated by Loptr to be confused with the wrong suspect, it should not surprise anyone that he is shunned from the truth by Loptr and is blinded by anger)

You can argue that the Arch-Eve Origin Bayonetta is an exception to be able to collect the Echoes of Memory without her LEoD in-game but for someone who's considered to be the Arch-Eve Origin capable of rivaling against Singularity, and via the Remnants of Memory chapter in the Echoes of Memory themselves stating that extraordinarily powerful witches can see them, I'm sure she doesn't need it with her power/hax. Also not a speed feat anyway.

Loptr being aware of Loki has nothing to do with the remembrance, but his general transcendence over space time.

Transcendence over space-time or temporal awareness won't mean anything to Immeasurable Speed. Hell, if anything, it proves my point that he has a level of control over time when it comes the future, if he can be aware of happenings in the within Loki and Bayonetta's era.

This is a false equivalency. You’re saying that because rots can be restored with time manipulation, and Loptr can also use view rots, that means his attack was also time manipulation.

Obviously.

Despite Loptr not restoring anything, or utilizing a rot himself when the feat happened, only Loki. Loki was using time manipulation, there’s no evidence of Loptr doing the same.

And false equivalence my ass. These RoTs that Loki and Bayonetta are able to envision are what allows them to at least know what they are using their time manipulation on to restore in the first place.

Why does Loptr need to restore anything, when the main purpose of his "visits" to Loki is to stop him from getting any closer to the Fimbulventr? Or maybe try and retrieve the Sovereign Power by attacking him through the RoT? Hell, if you want evidence of restoration, aren't his attacks the case of such since it manages to be brought back from the past and into the present?

Or when he's a part of old Balder in Bayonetta 1, who sent young Cereza from the past to the future present?
And who was able to force plucked flowers to mature to fruition.

Sure, maybe the Lumen Sages have their own version of an Umbra Watch or something, maybe even using his REoL. And at that point in time Loptr probably still had the Sovereign powers with him, I can't deny that.

But never have we both denied he has some level of power over the future to be temporally aware of Loki projecting a visible RoT in the future present, right? They both are born out of Aesir, despite certain differences with Loki being the better half, and wield the same blue energy that can "fortune-tell" someone like Luka via Loki's tarot card to a required place in time (Since you want to bring up portals Loptr creates to compare to the RoTs and make excuses of them not looking like the RoTs in the Imgur link, I can do the same by showcasing the same familiar blue coloured energy Loptr and Loki has to control time)

Yeah, that’s what I said, and if that attack traveled from the past to present through sheer speed, it can fit criteria for immeasurable. The RoTs aren’t portals, so it can’t just be equated to in and out timehax.

And why do you think I keep bringing up Loki's amnesiac headaches? When they are literally what makes him uncontrollable and volatile enough to accidentally cause unnecessary setbacks like bringing back a tsunami and sending Bayonetta and Balder back to the past. And that can include the attacks Loptr fired at Loki directly through the RoTs, while he is still mentally agonising and open to attack while having a lack of proper control over his powers.

Hell, Loki even tried throwing his cards at the RoT, thinking it would hit Loptr anyway, three times. Dear God, even your own pal Minaj admitted in the Imgur Link. But fine, maybe you guys didn't correct your statements properly.

Unless you have proof of someone using these portals to time travel, they’re not time traveling portals. We’ve seen time travel be used by Bayonetta, Loki, and Aesir, and they don’t use remembrances.

Although they don't need RoTs to time travel, Loki and Bayonetta do need them to know what they are restoring in the first place. That's why the description Bayonetta had when inspecting the Umbra Witch Memorial Place's RoT stated that she needs to collect all of the pieces in time while the RoT's still visible.

Can't hit a target using a gun without knowing where and what (and in this case, "when" as well) the target is.

Even young Loptr seems to need the RoTs active for him to have a grasp on Loki's existence within his reach, since he stated "At last, you stand before me without escape."

Backed up by the fact that he had also admitted that it was a waiting game to get Loki to be born through the instillation of evil within the hearts of humans for 500 years. Why would it not be the case of Loptr taking advantage of these RoTs to try and take down Loki, when he's been only doing this twice whenever Loki accidentally projected an existing RoT that can be interacted with by his cards and Loptr's projectiles?

Also, I don’t see anyone else.

Don't have to be anyone here in the thread or in this fandom to disagree with your scaling.

Imgur Scaling

"Throughout Bayonetta 2, we are shown multiple occasions of Loptr attacking Loki in present time from 500 years in the past."

Don't lie. You've only shown us a few, and just the two that so happen to have the RoTs present. Again, Loki tried to fire at young Loptr whenever he had the chance, during the tsunami moment, after that and before restoring the Ark.

"We are also shown examples of Loptr traveling through time & space via Astral Projection & Portal Creation hax, however that clearly isn’t the case here.

Loptr showcasing Spatial Travel via Portal Creation, Astral Projection, & Teleportation."

Having a bit of a stroke there, mate?

And already forgetting that this is him physically and not an Astral Projection? Especially when he said he will have to dirty his hands to get back the powers of Aesir instead of sending angel goons to do so? And that this blue form of his is an incohesive appearance of his actual body being too powerful for weaker spiritually enlightened beings like Bayonetta?

This is supported by the fact that the Angels of the Hierarchy of Laguna has proven to become less physical and more so spiritual in form when their power is greater than that of the physical realm. Especially like Valiance, Joy, Glamor, Inspired and Beloved.

Edit: Alright, my mistake. Apparently the official Prima Guide calls this as an actual apparition/ghostly image of Loptr. Won't change much.

Edit 2: No wait, my bad again. It says that he appears before Bayonetta as an apparition. So it's still him, not an actual Astral Projection. False alarm, everyone

"Loptr showcasing Time Travel via Portal Creation & Reincarnation."

Nice of you to point that out for us. Even if the EoTW are destroyed, he still has Sovereign and Prophet Powers, capable of time manipulation anyway. Sure, Sovereign Powers might be at play. But nonetheless, young Loptr has taken advantage of from an unstable Loki twice. An argument you still want to ignore.

"Remembrances of Time & how they function and time travel/manipulation is never listed nor implied"

Already forgotten the other paragraph of the journal's chapter? It also states that the memories of God are from his clairvoyant visions of everything happening in the Human World, past, present and future. And these visions are what forms the world. Luka lore-dumped it, the Hierarchy of Laguna file of Aesir (Loptr) stated it, the Journal's Echoes brought it up, AND if it weren't for these visions, Loki would never be able to know what exactly he needs from the past to be restored.

By the way, "flashbacks from places you have no memory of"? "A kid who suddenly speaks a foreign tongue"? "A voice in your head that ends up saving your life"? They all point to Aesir's visions having control over not just a different past with different events, a new present of different cultural language but also a different possibility of a timeline where you don't die. All involving the past, present and future of a possibly different universe(s). In a franchise built around the idea of a multiverse of different possibilities and timelines.

"Loptr himself confirms the RoT to be mind hax."

Literally calls it a vision of the truth and a RoT. A flashback of the past sure, but what had truly happened. Like one of Aesir's visions over history (not only just that, but also present and other future possibilities).

"The Eyes of The World are needed to create the Remembrances of Time, neither Loki or Loptr have access to the Eyes, and even if they did Loptr can’t use the Eyes without the Sovereign Power which Loki possesses."

Don't need to create any, since they already exist throughout the Human World, especially since they are what made the multiverse to begin with. Loki doesn't need the EoTW to control RoTs, nor did Loptr as the Prophet.

"The Remembrances of Time DO NOT grant the power of Time Travel. I am not saying that Loptr does not have time travel hax. I’m stating that the assumption that he uses the RoT to do so is incorrect.

So Loptr not using portals, astral projection, or the RoT to attack Loki 500 years into the future from the Witch Hunts can only mean he has Immeasurable Speed."

"Also bear in mind that the ((visions Loptr attacks Loki from))..."

Like I said, admitting. You seem to be slipping, Comicgyal, cause your pal seems to be agreeing with me on this. Of course, this could be because you guys didn't correct yourselves on this counter argument properly. Either or, bear in your minds, we've kept seeing these two times young Loptr attacking Loki always have the RoT ever present when he attacked him. Through it, using it via time manipulation or as a portal, anything along those. Because it was NEVER through sheer speed.

'Nuff. 'Effing. Said. Cause you can't even properly debunk this at all and constantly find other mental gymnastics level of dumbass obstacles to slither around the issues the "feats" have. And at this point, I'm done listening to your bullshit.

 

[Comicgyal]

Your own showcasing of the feats has him point-blank, in-your-face using the RoT to backfire against Loki. And it's also up to you to prove that Loptr, a being capable of manipulating the RoTs as a separated being of Aesir, does not need any time manipulation and use only his attack's speed to get from the past to the present (still not an immeasurable speed feat anyway).

I don’t, actually, the burden of proof is not on me. Since the RoTs don’t act as portals and are instead memories/visions, Loptr isn’t using them as some sort of time gateway to attack Loki. It’s on you to prove that they’re temporal portals, by providing an example of them being used as such. Which is never.

Your own showcasing of the feats has him point-blank, in-your-face using the RoT to backfire against Loki. And it's also up to you to prove that Loptr, a being capable of manipulating the RoTs as a separated being of Aesir, does not need any time manipulation and use only his attack's speed to get from the past to the present (still not an immeasurable speed feat anyway).

Pretty sure you're meant to say they're NOT in-and-out portals. Unless you're accidentally agreeing with me? But whatever.

And obviously they can't see them when they don't have Aesir's powers like Bayonetta, Loki and Loptr. (Might as well include Balder but considering he had been manipulated by Loptr to be confused with the wrong suspect, it should not surprise anyone that he is shunned from the truth by Loptr and is blinded by anger)

You can argue that the Arch-Eve Origin Bayonetta is an exception to be able to collect the Echoes of Memory without her LEoD in-game but for someone who's considered to be the Arch-Eve Origin capable of rivaling against Singularity, and via the Remnants of Memory chapter in the Echoes of Memory themselves stating that extraordinarily powerful witches can see them, I'm sure she doesn't need it with her power/hax. Also not a speed feat anyway.

The remnants that witches create, and Aesirs remembrances are different, so this doesn’t matter.

Transcendence over space-time or temporal awareness won't mean anything to Immeasurable Speed. Hell, if anything, it proves my point that he has a level of control over time when it comes the future, if he can be aware of happenings in the within Loki and Bayonetta's era.

l

Supplemental evidence. Aesir already has immeasurable speed, but we’re discussing his attack. Speed. Aesir says that he has a power that transcends space time, on its own it is not enough, but it helps bolster the claim.

Why does Loptr need to restore anything, when the main purpose of his "visits" to Loki is to stop him from getting any closer to the Fimbulventr? Or maybe try and retrieve the Sovereign Power by attacking him through the RoT? Hell, if you want evidence of restoration, aren't his attacks the case of such since it manages to be brought back from the past and into the present?

No. Since Loptr did not attach Loki in the past, so his attack is not being “restored” from a past moment.

Or when he's a part of old Balder in Bayonetta 1, who sent young Cereza from the past to the future present?
And who was able to force plucked flowers to mature to fruition.

Relevance?

Sure, maybe the Lumen Sages have their own version of an Umbra Watch or something, maybe even using his REoL. And at that point in time Loptr probably still had the Sovereign powers with him, I can't deny that.


But never have we both denied he has some level of power over the future to be temporally aware of Loki projecting a visible RoT in the future present, right? They both are born out of Aesir, despite certain differences with Loki being the better half, and wield the same blue energy that can "fortune-tell" someone like Luka via Loki's tarot card to a required place in time (Since you want to bring up portals Loptr creates to compare to the RoTs and make excuses of them not looking like the RoTs in the Imgur link, I can do the same by showcasing the same familiar blue coloured energy Loptr and Loki has to control time)

All of their attacks are blue, but there are very distinct showings that aesir/Loptr does when they’re using time manipulation abilities.
Exhibit A: Portal through space
Exhibit B: Portal through time and space
Then you have this plain, photo like image that does not glow blue, because it is not a portal. Just a memory.

And why do you think I keep bringing up Loki's amnesiac headaches? When they are literally what makes him uncontrollable and volatile enough to accidentally cause unnecessary setbacks like bringing back a tsunami and sending Bayonetta and Balder back to the past. And that can include the attacks Loptr fired at Loki directly through the RoTs, while he is still mentally agonising and open to attack while having a lack of proper control over his powers.

First of all, you brought it up first, and I keep saying it has no relevance, at all.

Hell, Loki even tried throwing his cards at the RoT, thinking it would hit Loptr anyway, three times. Dear God, even your own pal Minaj admitted in the Imgur Link. But fine, maybe you guys didn't correct your statements properly.

And? Notice how the attack didn’t go back in time, but instead restored the area? Very interesting, let’s all connect the dots here.

Although they don't need RoTs to time travel, Loki and Bayonetta do need them to know what they are restoring in the first place. That's why the description Bayonetta had when inspecting the Umbra Witch Memorial Place's RoT stated that she needs to collect all of the pieces in time while the RoT's still visible.

Doesn’t natter

Can't hit a target using a gun without knowing where and what (and in this case, "when" as well) the target is.

Even young Loptr seems to need the RoTs active for him to have a grasp on Loki's existence within his reach, since he stated "At last, you stand before me without escape."

He uses the RoT because Loki is standing right there. Did we all forget how Loki escaped through time into the future, which is why Loptr couldn’t get his hands on him in the past?

Backed up by the fact that he had also admitted that it was a waiting game to get Loki to be born through the instillation of evil within the hearts of humans for 500 years. Why would it not be the case of Loptr taking advantage of these RoTs to try and take down Loki, when he's been only doing this twice whenever Loki accidentally projected an existing RoT that can be interacted with by his cards and Loptr's projectiles?

Nobody denied that Loptr is attacking loki through a RoT, we’re saying that it’s not time travel or time manipulation, because they’re not portals, or anything physical for that matter. Besides, there’s nothing saying that Loptr can only attack loki through a rot. He does it to taunt Loki when he’s watching him..

Don't have to be anyone here in the thread or in this fandom to disagree with your scaling.

That’s .. the whole point of this site and this thread. Anyways I’m not responding to everything below, unless it has something to do with the present argument.

Loptr showcasing Spatial Travel via Portal Creation, Astral Projection, & Teleportation."

Having a bit of a stroke there, mate?

And already forgetting that this is him physically and not an Astral Projection? Especially when he said he will have to dirty his hands to get back the powers of Aesir instead of sending angel goons to do so? And that this blue form of his is an incohesive appearance of his actual body being too powerful for weaker spiritually enlightened beings like Bayonetta?

This is supported by the fact that the Angels of the Hierarchy of Laguna has proven to become less physical and more so spiritual in form when their power is greater than that of the physical realm. Especially like Valiance, Joy, Glamor, Inspired and Beloved.

Edit: Alright, my mistake. Apparently the official Prima Guide calls this as an actual apparition/ghostly image of Loptr. Won't change much.

Edit 2: No wait, my bad again. It says that he appears before Bayonetta as an apparition. So it's still him, not an actual Astral Projection. False alarm, everyone

An apparition is a ghost btw, so, not physical.

"Loptr showcasing Time Travel via Portal Creation & Reincarnation."

Nice of you to point that out for us. Even if the EoTW are destroyed, he still has Sovereign and Prophet Powers, capable of time manipulation anyway. Sure, Sovereign Powers might be at play. But nonetheless, young Loptr has taken advantage of from an unstable Loki twice. An argument you still want to ignore.

"Remembrances of Time & how they function and time travel/manipulation is never listed nor implied"

Already forgotten the other paragraph of the journal's chapter? It also states that the memories of God are from his clairvoyant visions of everything happening in the Human World, past, present and future. And these visions are what forms the world. Luka lore-dumped it, the Hierarchy of Laguna file of Aesir (Loptr) stated it, the Journal's Echoes brought it up, AND if it weren't for these visions, Loki would never be able to know what exactly he needs from the past to be restored.

Still not time travel, just clairvoyance and precog.

"The Remembrances of Time DO NOT grant the power of Time Travel. I am not saying that Loptr does not have time travel hax. I’m stating that the assumption that he uses the RoT to do so is incorrect.

So Loptr not using portals, astral projection, or the RoT to attack Loki 500 years into the future from the Witch Hunts can only mean he has Immeasurable Speed."

"Also bear in mind that the ((visions Loptr attacks Loki from))..."

Like I said, admitting. You seem to be slipping, Comicgyal, cause your pal seems to be agreeing with me on this. Of course, this could be because you guys didn't correct yourselves on this counter argument properly. Either or, bear in your minds, we've kept seeing these two times young Loptr attacking Loki always have the RoT ever present when he attacked him. Through it, using it via time manipulation or as a portal, anything along those. Because it was NEVER through sheer speed.

'Nuff. 'Effing. Said. Cause you can't even properly debunk this at all and constantly find other mental gymnastics level of dumbass obstacles to slither around the issues the "feats" have. And at this point, I'm done listening to your bullshit.

Again, they’re never used to time travel, or used as back and forth portals. You’ve yet to provide a single instance of that, and even when you mentioned loki trying to attack Loptr that very SAME rot, it doesn’t go into the past either. I’m finished with this circular discussion, find me evidence of them being used as portals.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I'm not very knowledgable on the verse so i'll only be tackling Transduality.

The first issue it has is that it only proven two dualistic concepts.
We cannot assumes other concepts are dualistic by nature unless shown or proven so as per the standard specially when tackling TD2.

Second issue is that predating something isn't always enough to assume they are unbound by it.
But for what we know he granted those free will. Aside from the remark of how it is a joke there is nothing more so i believe it lacks more depth to actually say he is transcendent over whatever this free will grants or create. And as it is his power it may as well be capable of still affecting him unless there are shown feats of him being unaffected by powers he grants etc.

At the very least 2 dualistic concepts are proven and is said to govern the world. If we can get more elaboration on how the 2 concept govern the reality and the scope what it is capable of doing or governing only then we can argue which abilities will it have feats of transcendence as these 2 concept is rather vague in explanation.

As i can read from past argument they seem to be also arguing against transcendent of the quote about it being a joke. As of now i don't agree to it being sufficient for the ability to be considered. But if there is more context im willing to wait for it

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm not very knowledgable on the verse so i'll only be tackling Transduality.

The first issue it has is that it only proven two dualistic concepts.
We cannot assumes other concepts are dualistic by nature unless shown or proven so as per the standard specially when tackling TD2.

Second issue is that predating something isn't always enough to assume they are unbound by it.
But for what we know he granted those free will. Aside from the remark of how it is a joke there is nothing more so i believe it lacks more depth to actually say he is transcendent over whatever this free will grants or create. And as it is his power it may as well be capable of still affecting him unless there are shown feats of him being unaffected by powers he grants etc.

At the very least 2 dualistic concepts are proven and is said to govern the world. If we can get more elaboration on how the 2 concept govern the reality and the scope what it is capable of doing or governing only then we can argue which abilities will it have feats of transcendence as these 2 concept is rather vague in explanation.

As i can read from past argument they seem to be also arguing against transcendent of the quote about it being a joke. As of now i don't agree to it being sufficient for the ability to be considered. But if there is more context im willing to wait for it

Before I take the time to reply, which two dualistic concepts are you referring to exactly?
I also asked a staff member, and they said that the concepts that were created as pairs by humanity can be considered dualistic. Are you saying this is incorrect, or?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Before I take the time to reply, which two dualistic concepts are you referring to exactly?
I also asked a staff member, and they said that the concepts that were created as pairs by humanity can be considered dualistic. Are you saying this is incorrect, or?

Triumph and defeat, truth and falsehood.

Yeah concepts that is created by pairs would qualify but base on that context/statement alone only two is confirmed.
And its up to the series to say which concepts will be treated as duality. So if you want to argue for example that dark and light are pairs it needs to be supported. Or like existence and nonexistence. Its also possible to have dualities such as "fire" and "not fire".
So we cant really assume that suddenly every concept is a duality unless there is heavy reasons to believe so.

So for other dualities that isn't the 2 concept mentioned it has to follow the same requirement of being implied or said to be conflicting force or pairs.

 

[Comicgyal]

Triumph and defeat, truth and falsehood.

Yeah concepts that is created by pairs would qualify but base on that context/statement alone only two is confirmed.
And its up to the series to say which concepts will be treated as duality. So if you want to argue for example that dark and light are pairs it needs to be supported. Or like existence and nonexistence. Its also possible to have dualities such as "fire" and "not fire".
So we cant really assume that suddenly every concept is a duality unless there is heavy reasons to believe so.

So for other dualities that isn't the 2 concept mentioned it has to follow the same requirement of being implied or said to be conflicting force or pairs.

Gotcha. What about “envy and scorn” that they mention? Can those two not also be pairs? Pretty sure they would be conflicting forces and a pair.

 

[Asdtgh]

I don’t, actually, the burden of proof is not on me. Since the RoTs don’t act as portals and are instead memories/visions, Loptr isn’t using them as some sort of time gateway to attack Loki. It’s on you to prove that they’re temporal portals, by providing an example of them being used as such. Which is never.

The goddamn two times he has shot his attacks through it. That is your proof. Of all times he has ever done his "immeasurable attack speed" projectiles, he shoots them through the RoT. And this whole time we're supposed to acknowledge those attacks as immeasurable speed through an assumption Loptr doesn't use any of his time hax to have his attacks get to the present and hit Loki.

And besides, you've helped me with the portals Loptr uses anyway.

The remnants that witches create, and Aesirs remembrances are different, so this doesn’t matter.

Sure they don't matter for immeasurable, but they are created in the same formula. That being if you've forgotten young Balder's statement about creating their own world with their own eyes, like the EoTW that created the reality of the Human World?

Already forgetting how the whole world has to be perceived by mostly sight alone, via the EoTW? Where Perception is Reality? With how the RoTs are the visions of Aesir that forms the world that I've just explained. And that includes present and future. Very key gimmicks that is so relevant throughout Bayonetta 2 and maybe even Bayonetta 1 and 3?

Supplemental evidence. Aesir already has immeasurable speed, but we’re discussing his attack. Speed. Aesir says that he has a power that transcends space time, on its own it is not enough, but it helps bolster the claim.

As in OG Aesir with all of his powers, or the faker Aesir Loptr turned out to be without his apparent true power of Nothingness?

Cause if you're trying to say that OG Aesir does have Immeasurable Speed because of the scan of him being able to "travel through time and space", that's if we assume that OG Aesir doesn't use portals to hop around time and space like his own half Loptr when he tried to escape into the spirit realm.

No. Since Loptr did not attach Loki in the past, so his attack is not being “restored” from a past moment.

Attach? As in attack Loki from the past? The hell, he just did attack him from the past! (This is what you've been preaching as Immeasurable Speed) With his attack literally happening from the past and sent straight to the present and hit Loki! Again, something that will go over your head again, through the RoT.

Relevance?

Relevant being Balder is using Loptr's Prophet powers to send something from the past to the present, like Cereza and his projectiles? And that he can fast-forward the growth of a flower which can explain as to how young Loptr can "fast-forward his attacks" to the present? And considering that you want to exclude the abilities of Loki and Bayonetta's restoration feats and use "Space-Time Transcendence) as a "bolster to a claim", why don't we exclude "past to future" time manipulation to Loptr having such abilities to even get his attacks to travel to the future present and hit Loki. Via portals. Even though he has manipulated a RoT of the past as well.

All of their attacks are blue, but there are very distinct showings that aesir/Loptr does when they’re using time manipulation abilities.
Exhibit A: Portal through space
Exhibit B: Portal through time and space
Then you have this plain, photo like image that does not glow blue, because it is not a portal. Just a memory.

And yet the first portal that Loptr created is one that maybe seen as a ball, it is also something that has been created for him to look through while he stares away on his throne, and somehow knowing the events unfolding during Bayonetta and Loki's adventures, like it's a spherical plasma screen TV? Even Loki manages to perceive where the second portal is going (that being the spirit realm), when it's "just a ball of blue energy" portal? Sure, Loptr (somewhat, mind you) explained his plan but never gave a hint of how he's going to do it and where exactly without his physical body after it got eaten by Gomorrah.

And as for the "plain, photo like image", are you honestly sure about that? You don't see even a hint of blue energy formulating around or on the RoT as a change of hue? Not even how Loki's powers glowed blue for it to be projected like, oh I don't know, Loptr glowing blue to cast the RoT onto Bayonetta?

First of all, you brought it up first, and I keep saying it has no relevance, at all.

You say it has no relevance. And I say it does. You would go this route of ignorance because you don't even want to debunk. Or hell, maybe you can't debunk my statements and wave them off as though they're apparently wrong, and as though we can't do the same for your own statements of immeasurable speed.

And? Notice how the attack didn’t go back in time, but instead restored the area? Very interesting, let’s all connect the dots here.

Another case of not having immeasurable speed since it couldn't, and sure maybe not actually used as a portal. But try to remember who is apparently excluded to having portals that delves into spatial travel and very possibly time travel? Plus, we haven't actually seen the POV of young Loptr's moment in time, did we? We only see from Loki and Bayonetta's end in the present, but never what young Loptr (alone) could see from the past.

Cause if Bayonetta can visualise a RoT of an Umbra Witch's Memorial Place as a blurred image of its previous structure, with Loki's being a static but almost clear image of the event occurring, what's stopping Loptr from perceiving his own version of RoT as his own blue spherical ball? That he can be able to identify the happenings of Loki and Bayonetta's path to Fimbulventr and the adventures occurring? And if you want to try and counter-argue that Loptr didn't project out his blue sphere for his "mental attack" on Bayonetta, so did Loki and his TV screen images as RoTs when all he needed to do is burst a wave of blue energy to repair other areas of Noatun.

Doesn’t natter

It does.

He uses the RoT because Loki is standing right there. Did we all forget how Loki escaped through time into the future, which is why Loptr couldn’t get his hands on him in the past?

Through speed? After all the timey-whimey travelling through a blue spherical portal, an Umbra Witch's Watch that requires a refractive glass window, Muspelheim portals in the story campaign, I doubt it.

Nobody denied that Loptr is attacking loki through a RoT, we’re saying that it’s not time travel or time manipulation, because they’re not portals, or anything physical for that matter. Besides, there’s nothing saying that Loptr can only attack loki through a rot. He does it to taunt Loki when he’s watching him..

And where are the times Loptr can attack Loki without a RoT, hm? You said it's been done multiple times, right? We can check through the whole sequel game for all we want, but the only times that Loki's attacks have ever happened through the RoTs are the end of Chapter 5 and the start of Chapter 7. If you can find other occasions that doesn't involve the RoTs at all, lay it on us.

And even if he is doing it just to taunt Loki, won't persuade anything that the attacks are Immeasurable Speed.

That’s .. the whole point of this site and this thread. Anyways I’m not responding to everything below, unless it has something to do with the present argument.

You gave us an Imgur Link expecting it to be relevant, why the hell do you not want to respond to the issues it has? Isn't that the "whole point of this site and this thread"?

An apparition is a ghost btw, so, not physical.

And yet the Official Prima Guide said it's actually Loptr himself appearing before Bayonetta. And since the Bayonetta 1 Hierarchy of Laguna lore has been explaining how the existence of angels changes through their spiritual energy level to the point it's hard for weaker spiritually enlightened beings to perceive their true forms; and would resort to humans making misinterpretations of how they are exactly depicted, like Inspired, Belief, Kinship, Enrapture, and so on, no it isn't an Astral Projection.

Still not time travel, just clairvoyance and precog.

In the occurrences of regular people Luka interviewed, sure. But in the hands of Aesir's power-gifted carriers? Capable of powerful time manipulation to even restore what was destroyed by a grand scale like the bridge that goes straight to Fimbulventr via the pole dancing device? And being able to portal around space and time via means that always involve Aesir's powers, since the EoTW are what even allows the Lumen Sage and Umbra Witch clans to form in the first place as the Overseers of the Human World and the Balance of the Trinity of Realities?

Again, they’re never used to time travel, or used as back and forth portals. You’ve yet to provide a single instance of that, and even when you mentioned loki trying to attack Loptr that very SAME rot, it doesn’t go into the past either. I’m finished with this circular discussion, find me evidence of them being used as portals.

And again, Loptr is known for his portaling shennanigans, isn't he? Isn't that why you tried to showcase us that that's all he apparently can do?

And same for me. It's incredibly disappointing and a waste of time when you have NEVER actually and properly tackle any of the subjects I presented and rarely even succeed. Well, I doubt you could.

 

[Comicgyal]

The goddamn two times he has shot his attacks through it. That is your proof. Of all times he has ever done his "immeasurable attack speed" projectiles, he shoots them through the RoT. And this whole time we're supposed to acknowledge those attacks as immeasurable speed through an assumption Loptr doesn't use any of his time hax to have his attacks get to the present and hit Loki.

That’s not proof. Your claim is that these memories are portals that should work both ways. Only Loptrs attack going through time, despite Loki being the one to open the memory, proves that it is not a back and forth portal.

Sure they don't matter for immeasurable, but they are created in the same formula. That being if you've forgotten young Balder's statement about creating their own world with their own eyes, like the EoTW that created the reality of the Human World?

Already forgetting how the whole world has to be perceived by mostly sight alone, via the EoTW? Where Perception is Reality? With how the RoTs are the visions of Aesir that forms the world that I've just explained. And that includes present and future. Very key gimmicks that is so relevant throughout Bayonetta 2 and maybe even Bayonetta 1 and 3?

As in OG Aesir with all of his powers, or the faker Aesir Loptr turned out to be without his apparent true power of Nothingness?

All of this is irrelevant.

Cause if you're trying to say that OG Aesir does have Immeasurable Speed because of the scan of him being able to "travel through time and space", that's if we assume that OG Aesir doesn't use portals to hop around time and space like his own half Loptr when he tried to escape into the spirit realm.

Didn’t say that. As I said, those statements are all supplementary.

Attach? As in attack Loki from the past? The hell, he just did attack him from the past! (This is what you've been preaching as Immeasurable Speed) With his attack literally happening from the past and sent straight to the present and hit Loki! Again, something that will go over your head again, through the RoT.

No, I mean that Loki and Loptr were not together in that same instance in the past, so Loki is not restoring / viewing an event of Loptr attacking him. That’s something Loptr did in that very moment.

Relevant being Balder is using Loptr's Prophet powers to send something from the past to the present, like Cereza and his projectiles? And that he can fast-forward the growth of a flower which can explain as to how young Loptr can "fast-forward his attacks" to the present? And considering that you want to exclude the abilities of Loki and Bayonetta's restoration feats and use "Space-Time Transcendence) as a "bolster to a claim", why don't we exclude "past to future" time manipulation to Loptr having such abilities to even get his attacks to travel to the future present and hit Loki. Via portals. Even though he has manipulated a RoT of the past as well.

We don’t know how balder brought Cereza from the past, but we saw how Bayonetta did it. That can be time manipulation/plant manipulation, which lumen sages have naturally, nothing to do with aesir. Also im not excluding their feats, im saying that they have nothing to do with Loptr. They’re restoring past events, Loptrs attack happened as they viewed the memory.

And yet the first portal that Loptr created is one that maybe seen as a ball, it is also something that has been created for him to look through while he stares away on his throne, and somehow knowing the events unfolding during Bayonetta and Loki's adventures, like it's a spherical plasma screen TV? Even Loki manages to perceive where the second portal is going (that being the spirit realm), when it's "just a ball of blue energy" portal? Sure, Loptr (somewhat, mind you) explained his plan but never gave a hint of how he's going to do it and where exactly without his physical body after it got eaten by Gomorrah.

And as for the "plain, photo like image", are you honestly sure about that? You don't see even a hint of blue energy formulating around or on the RoT as a change of hue? Not even how Loki's powers glowed blue for it to be projected like, oh I don't know, Loptr glowing blue to cast the RoT onto Bayonetta?

Uh, yeah? The edges are blue, but they’re still flat images, and they’re a described as pictures (which are flat) not blue portals.

You say it has no relevance. And I say it does. You would go this route of ignorance because you don't even want to debunk. Or hell, maybe you can't debunk my statements and wave them off as though they're apparently wrong, and as though we can't do the same for your own statements of immeasurable speed.

.. Okay, what’s the relevance of Lokis headaches to Loptr firing attacks through time?

Another case of not having immeasurable speed since it couldn't, and sure maybe not actually used as a portal. But try to remember who is apparently excluded to having portals that delves into spatial travel and very possibly time travel? Plus, we haven't actually seen the POV of young Loptr's moment in time, did we? We only see from Loki and Bayonetta's end in the present, but never what young Loptr (alone) could see from the past.

Cause if Bayonetta can visualise a RoT of an Umbra Witch's Memorial Place as a blurred image of its previous structure, with Loki's being a static but almost clear image of the event occurring, what's stopping Loptr from perceiving his own version of RoT as his own blue spherical ball? That he can be able to identify the happenings of Loki and Bayonetta's path to Fimbulventr and the adventures occurring? And if you want to try and counter-argue that Loptr didn't project out his blue sphere for his "mental attack" on Bayonetta, so did Loki and his TV screen images as RoTs when all he needed to do is burst a wave of blue energy to repair other areas of Noatun.

I’m not going to argue what ifs, what we see are that Rots are flat images. I’m not going to speculate if it’s a portal from Loptrs pov, because we will never know. Also Lokis attack not going back through time when he attacks the rot, proves that they are not portals.

Through speed? After all the timey-whimey travelling through a blue spherical portal, an Umbra Witch's Watch that requires a refractive glass window, Muspelheim portals in the story campaign, I doubt it.

Didn’t say it was through speed, and whether it was or was not is not part of my argument. The point is Loki was not there.

And where are the times Loptr can attack Loki without a RoT, hm? You said it's been done multiple times, right? We can check through the whole sequel game for all we want, but the only times that Loki's attacks have ever happened through the RoTs are the end of Chapter 5 and the start of Chapter 7. If you can find other occasions that doesn't involve the RoTs at all, lay it on us.

We don’t need evidence of him attacking Loki without one, because aesir (Loptr) already exists in the present. He attacks Loki from the past because Loki is looking at him from the future, I don’t see why Loptr would feel like attacking Loki from the past during any other instance. It’s also not like he’d know where Loki was either, unless Loki is directly looking at him. He’s not aesir, can’t see everything, everywhere, all at once.

You gave us an Imgur Link expecting it to be relevant, why the hell do you not want to respond to the issues it has? Isn't that the "whole point of this site and this thread"?

The point of the Imgur was solely to focus on the immeasurable bits, and not everything you commented on dealt with that. I focused on what was absolutely relevant.

And yet the Official Prima Guide said it's actually Loptr himself appearing before Bayonetta. And since the Bayonetta 1 Hierarchy of Laguna lore has been explaining how the existence of angels changes through their spiritual energy level to the point it's hard for weaker spiritually enlightened beings to perceive their true forms; and would resort to humans making misinterpretations of how they are exactly depicted, like Inspired, Belief, Kinship, Enrapture, and so on, no it isn't an Astral Projection.

It is Loptr appearing in front of her, but as an apparition, aka astral projection. We see aesir astral project through space earlier in the game when luka spots him. Also while it’s true that lower beings can’t perceive higher ones, that isn’t the case for Bayonetta. So Loptr still appearing as a hazy blue figure is because it’s a projection. He never looks like that again.

And again, Loptr is known for his portaling shennanigans, isn't he? Isn't that why you tried to showcase us that that's all he apparently can do?

Sure he is, but he doesn’t, and nobody ever time travels using a Rot, that’s the point.

And same for me. It's incredibly disappointing and a waste of time when you have NEVER actually and properly tackle any of the subjects I presented and rarely even succeed. Well, I doubt you could.

Cool, feel free to take your disappointment elsewhere. I’ll list you as disagree, and will be focusing on the transduality bits from henceforth.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Gotcha. What about “envy and scorn” that they mention? Can those two not also be pairs? Pretty sure they would be conflicting forces and a pair.

Not sure. Envy and Scorn was mentioned as part of the emotions listed unlike the first two where it was clearly stated as something different as separated by a comma

 

[Asdtgh]

That’s not proof. Your claim is that these memories are portals that should work both ways. Only Loptrs attack going through time, despite Loki being the one to open the memory, proves that it is not a back and forth portal.

Then it doesn't need to work for both ways, especially since Loptr's known for his teleportation and portals.

All of this is irrelevant.

Go ahead and ignore it, can't debunk anything, can you?

Didn’t say that. As I said, those statements are all supplementary.

So the things you bring to the table are supplementary to support your argument, yet the things I bring to the table are just irrelevant and ignorable, huh?

No, I mean that Loki and Loptr were not together in that same instance in the past, so Loki is not restoring / viewing an event of Loptr attacking him. That’s something Loptr did in that very moment.

So we can all admit that it's no longer an immeasurable speed feat, then?

We don’t know how balder brought Cereza from the past, but we saw how Bayonetta did it.

No, she sent her from present to past, not like Balder having to do the exact opposite from past to present. And who else can do this, than none other with someone he absorbed into with the powers that can time travel from past to present?

That can be time manipulation/plant manipulation, which lumen sages have naturally, nothing to do with aesir.

Ok then.

Also im not excluding their feats, im saying that they have nothing to do with Loptr. They’re restoring past events, Loptrs attack happened as they viewed the memory.

So you can agree the RoT has to do something with the attacks, right? Rather than repeating "They're just visions/memories".

Uh, yeah? The edges are blue, but they’re still flat images, and they’re a described as pictures (which are flat) not blue portals.

Is the RoT of the Umbra Witch Memorial Place a flat image? And no, the Fragment of Memory chapter in the Journal's Echoes states that they are something akin to taking a photo. Considering that anything in the world can be depicted as an RoT since the RoTs are what forms anything, like the Umbra Resting Place, it can be depicted as a blue portal, can't it?

.. Okay, what’s the relevance of Lokis headaches to Loptr firing attacks through time?

Again, ducking my point. I'm not gonna repeat myself to you like a broken record. The other times I'll help jog your memory will be freebies

I’m not going to argue what ifs, what we see are that Rots are flat images. I’m not going to speculate if it’s a portal from Loptrs pov, because we will never know. Also Lokis attack not going back through time when he attacks the rot, proves that they are not portals.

And yet Loptr's attacks still have to go through them anyway to reach Loki. Even if Loki's powers don't work on the RoT like a portal, the other half of Aesir can treat it as such.

What ifs my ass, you're the one with the "what if Loptr's attack can move at Immeasurable Speeds".

Didn’t say it was through speed, and whether it was or was not is not part of my argument. The point is Loki was not there.

Then why bring up Immeasurable attack speed into this thread when it doesn't work like so at all?

We don’t need evidence of him attacking Loki without one, because aesir (Loptr) already exists in the present. He attacks Loki from the past because Loki is looking at him from the future, I don’t see why Loptr would feel like attacking Loki from the past during any other instance. It’s also not like he’d know where Loki was either, unless Loki is directly looking at him. He’s not aesir, can’t see everything, everywhere, all at once.

Still not Immeasurable Speed.

The point of the Imgur was solely to focus on the immeasurable bits, and not everything you commented on dealt with that. I focused on what was absolutely relevant.

And I pointed out the flaws in that Imgur Link. And I only commented on the wrongs that are relevant to this thread about pushing Bayoverse to Immeasurable speed.

It is Loptr appearing in front of her, but as an apparition, aka astral projection. We see aesir astral project through space earlier in the game when luka spots him. Also while it’s true that lower beings can’t perceive higher ones, that isn’t the case for Bayonetta. So Loptr still appearing as a hazy blue figure is because it’s a projection. He never looks like that again.

Or that Bayonetta becomes strong enough from mid-game to the end-game to actually do perceive him properly, why do you think Loptr said this, along with his description in the Hierarchy of Laguna? And you're assuming that him coming closer to his own portal and interacting with it isn't portal hopping or teleportation, huh? Another of your one allowable What-Ifs.

Hell, I don't even see an energy doppelganger separating out of him considering it's the same being here.

Sure he is, but he doesn’t, and nobody ever time travels using a Rot, that’s the point.

And why couldn't it be Loptr, especially when he has interacted with them and manipulates time before? As seen with young Loptr on Loki's own RoTs and adult Loptr using one on Bayonetta. If Bayonetta and Loki can manipulate time with RoTs, so should Loptr.

Cool, feel free to take your disappointment elsewhere. I’ll list you as disagree, and will be focusing on the transduality bits from henceforth.

Sure thing. Glad this Immeasurable Speed fallacy is dead into the ground.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm not very knowledgable on the verse so i'll only be tackling Transduality.

The first issue it has is that it only proven two dualistic concepts.
We cannot assumes other concepts are dualistic by nature unless shown or proven so as per the standard specially when tackling TD2.

So to be sure, are two dualistic concepts only enough for TD1?

Second issue is that predating something isn't always enough to assume they are unbound by it.
But for what we know he granted those free will. Aside from the remark of how it is a joke there is nothing more so i believe it lacks more depth to actually say he is transcendent over whatever this free will grants or create. And as it is his power it may as well be capable of still affecting him unless there are shown feats of him being unaffected by powers he grants etc.

Fair enough, and I will try not to reiterate too much. I think the “Free Will” portion is the best part of the argument, as it is under Free Will that these dualistic concepts came to be. As a bit of background, humanity before being granted free will, and the universe they lived in were all governed by aesir and his eyes. As stated at the end of the game, it is his original will that controlled everything. The reason why I place importance on that, is because I do not believe that the secondary Free Will, and anything it creates should bound aesir. Free Will is only something he allowed to come into existence, and only serves as a means to give humanity the capabilities to live their lives.

At the very least 2 dualistic concepts are proven and is said to govern the world. If we can get more elaboration on how the 2 concept govern the reality and the scope what it is capable of doing or governing only then we can argue which abilities will it have feats of transcendence as these 2 concept is rather vague in explanation.

I’m not sure if we’re going to get more than what I have quoted. At most I can say that these concepts control their entire reality, and were created by the respective eyes of the world (Light and Darkness)

As i can read from past argument they seem to be also arguing against transcendent of the quote about it being a joke. As of now i don't agree to it being sufficient for the ability to be considered. But if there is more context im willing to wait for it

That was really just supplementary. Aesir is described as a transcendent being over their world, and so the quote about it being a joke was just another nod to that.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

So to be sure, are two dualistic concepts only enough for TD1?

Second issue is that predating something isn't always enough to assume they are unbound by it.
But for what we know he granted those free will. Aside from the remark of how it is a joke there is nothing more so i believe it lacks more depth to actually say he is transcendent over whatever this free will grants or create. And as it is his power it may as well be capable of still affecting him unless there are shown feats of him being unaffected by powers he grants etc.

As i can read from past argument they seem to be also arguing against transcendent of the quote about it being a joke. As of now i don't agree to it being sufficient for the ability to be considered. But if there is more context im willing to wait for it

Atm i dont agree it grants transduality based on statements of it being a joke and predating it.

Although i agree that there are dualistic conceptd

 

[Comicgyal]

Atm i dont agree it grants transduality based on statements of it being a joke and predating it.

Although i agree that there are dualistic conceptd

Gotcha. Question, are there other ways to achieve transduality aside from transcendence? Or is that the only way?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Gotcha. Question, are there other ways to achieve transduality aside from transcendence? Or is that the only way?

it's the only way
Transcendence in a way that whatever they transcend becomes completely irrelevant to them
to put it into perspective
Someone for example who has transcendence over life and death cannot be given the concept of life or death as they are beyond that concept (on their level of reality)
different from those who simply lack it and thus can still be killed by applying the concept to them

 

[Comicgyal]

Okay. I’ll call back the previous staff and ask their opinions once more.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good for TD and Acausality.

 

[Comicgyal]

Glass is fine with a possibly for TD2, and since you’re also fine with it, I think a possibly is fine.

Looks good for TD and Acausality.

Can you close this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sure