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Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

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Before you all deal with Universal scaling and Tiers, I'd wait for that Tier 2 thread to be concluded as this can affect all these character's tiers.
 
I’ve read it as well. Doesn’t affect any of the tiers, especially since her feat deals with the past, present, and future to begin with. As it’s the convergence of timelines in the past, Bayonetta present timeline, and other space time that could happen later on.
 
Not a problem, Bayonettas universe is pretty interesting overall. The dimensional scaling and all that
 
I also propose we upgrade Jeanne and Rosa to 3-A, Jeanna due to Bayonetta 1 scaling, and the both of them because of the climax bracelet being universal.
 
Hard disagree on immeasurable speed, scaling to Rodin I'm ok with, and also btw, them scaling to Loptr I've already stated this multiple times on my bayo 2 downgrade that Balder and Bayonetta keeping up with Aesir makes no sense when they both were bodied by a weaker Loptr and can barely keep up with Loptr to begin with. Them keeping up with Aesir before the eyes gets nuked is PIS on the highest order.

Also while we're on the topic I have to ask, why does Queen Sheba remotely have a weakened tier to begin with? When was she stated to be weakened when she was summoned in the final fight? Or in general? cause I don't recall her being weaker than normal. Not only that but she at best is able to beat weakened jubileus who's 3-A, and even Omne is at best showned to severely harm a nerfed Loptr, I'm more in line to remove the 2-C ratings with Sheba and Omne, which in turn would scale to Rodin since he doesn't have any showings up keeping up with both eyes of the world into one god as far as we know.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Hard disagree on immeasurable speed, scaling to Rodin I'm ok with, and also btw, them scaling to Loptr I've already stated this multiple times on my bayo 2 downgrade that Balder and Bayonetta keeping up with Aesir makes no sense when they both were bodied by a weaker Loptr and can barely keep up with Loptr to begin with. Them keeping up with Aesir before the eyes gets nuked is PIS on the highest order.

Also while we're on the topic I have to ask, why does Queen Sheba remotely have a weakened tier to begin with? When was she stated to be weakened when she was summoned in the final fight? Or in general? cause I don't recall her being weaker than normal. Not only that but she at best is able to beat weakened jubileus who's 3-A, and even Omne is at best showned to severely harm a nerfed Loptr, I'm more in line to remove the 2-C ratings with Sheba and Omne, which in turn would scale to Rodin since he doesn't have any showings up keeping up with both eyes of the world into one god as far as we know.
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No.. not really. Bayonetta sure lost to Loptr twice, but even then she’s put up a fight each time. Balder has only fought Aesir, and it wasn’t a fight for the sole reason that he could control their eyes to begin with. Balder got knocked down once, then had his eye removed. Bayonetta put up a fight, then Aesir took her eye as well. Aesir wasn’t fodderizing them at all, nor was that even implied, he just had the clear advantage because he can control their eyes + Bayo had to fight right eye Aesir boosted with his regular power. Which again, she held out against.

Her entire existence is a mystery, I sorta went into that as well. But I disagree with removing their ratings. They’re all heavily implied to be relative, and all came into existence after the realities split. Queen Sheba is immensely stronger than right eye Jubileus, that’s shown explicitly. Same for Omne against Aesir in his natural power. Again Rodin is stated to be stronger than jubileus, but you can ignore that if you want.
 
Note that the only reason Aesir initially beat Bayo in their first fight was that he caught her while her back was turned as she was focused on summoning a demon and forcibly took her Eye which as shown in the first game knocks her out when someone other than herself activates the Eye
 
Also as I said before, they’re only being scaled for speed? Because they’ve kept up with him multiple times. Why is that controversial?
 
@WeeklyBattles your explanation didn’t debunk my argument at all, otherwise my downgrade wouldn’t have gone through. And you’re just repeating the same arguments I’ve already addressed so I’m not gonna waste any time addressing it.

@Comicgyal putting up a fight doesn’t mean much when Loptr was never shown to be worn out in any of the fights and had the high ground on all 3 fights before he became Aesir, INCLUDING when he was much younger and much weaker as a result.

Queen Sheba is stronger than a Jubileus who’s 3-A, but where is it ever stated that it was a weakened Sheba who did it in the first place? Cause I don’t recall that ever being stated. Omne showed up to body Aesir when he lost both eyes, the 2-C scaling shouldn’t apply to her in general since she only has showing of destroying base Loptr.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@WeeklyBattles your explanation didn’t debunk my argument at all, otherwise my downgrade wouldn’t have gone through. And you’re just repeating the same arguments I’ve already addressed so I’m not gonna waste any time addressing it.

@Comicgyal putting up a fight doesn’t mean much when Loptr was never shown to be worn out in any of the fights and had the high ground on all 3 fights before he became Aesir, INCLUDING when he was much younger and much weaker as a result.

Queen Sheba is stronger than a Jubileus who’s 3-A, but where is it ever stated that it was a weakened Sheba who did it in the first place? Cause I don’t recall that ever being stated. Omne showed up to body Aesir when he lost both eyes, the 2-C scaling shouldn’t apply to her in general since she only has showing of destroying base Loptr.
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And I understand that, but again what does that have to do with the information I presented in this CRT? She’s not being scaled to Aesir for tiering, it’s for their base speed scaling.

It’s never said whether its weakened or full power, because her entire existence is mystery. However due to their closely tied existences, it’s implied that all of them are very relative to one another. Queen Sheba kicked Jubileus out her body, completely oneshotted, if you believe that Queen Sheba has similar strength to weakened Jubileus then I don’t know what to say. Same for Omne, who is implied to be stronger than Aesir overall. I definitely disagree with taking their ratings away.
 
because Bayonetta gets speed blitzed by Loptr more than once. His attacks in the first fight aren’t even dodgeable for Bayonetta and she gets outsped by Loptr when he has one eye. It’s the equivalent of scaling android 16 and 18 to Semi perfect cell cause they somewhat kept up with him despite him clearly being far faster than both.

So why are we assuming it’s weakened Sheba to begin with if her existence is a mystery? I don’t see the logic here. Queen Sheba has only shown beating one eyed Jubileus. And can you show me where has Omne ever stated to be stronger than Aesir overall? Cause I don’t recall that ever being stated ever.
 
Theglassman12 said:
because Bayonetta gets speed blitzed by Loptr more than once. His attacks in the first fight aren’t even dodgeable for Bayonetta and she gets outsped by Loptr when he has one eye. It’s the equivalent of scaling android 16 and 18 to Semi perfect cell cause they somewhat kept up with him despite him clearly being far faster than both.

So why are we assuming it’s weakened Sheba to begin with if her existence is a mystery? I don’t see the logic here. Queen Sheba has only shown beating one eyed Jubileus. And can you show me where has Omne ever stated to be stronger than Aesir overall? Cause I don’t recall that ever being stated ever.
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No she doesn’t?? When does she ever get speed blitzed? From what I’ve seen, since I played through both games recently, in the first fight Prophet just knocks her down with laser beams. In the fight on the clock tower he knocks her into a wall, then destroys the tower. When does he blitz her? In the fight versus Aesir, she’s recoiling after her demons get destroyed and then he takes her eyes away.

Like I said, I already stated that Queen Sheba doesn’t have a “weakened form” and that the form she’s summoned in, should be relative to the other gods due to how easily she dealt with one eye jubileus. I said implied, not stated.
 
she couldn't react to the laser shots Loptr made so why should she scale to his attack speed, and after she summons the demons and turns around he zips right up to her and got her neck before she could react, either way she gets outsped by Loptr more than once in all of their fights.

So you agree that weakened form as a whole shouldn't be a thing on the pages. That doesn't answer my question though. One eye jubileus is only 3-A, she's not 3-A to 2-C at all, and she easily dealt with a Jubileus who's been beaten to a pulp. Implied from what? drop kicking Loptr at base form? He's at best 3-A if we're to accept Rodin scaling to this level.
 
Again that’s simply not true. How is she able to fight him, for an extended period of time, if she’s unable to react to him at all? All throughout the fight there’s battle cutscenes, then he blasts her while she’s literally just standing there. He’s not out speeding her, he’s overpowering her, and even if he WAS out speeding here you literally can’t ignore the fact that they’re fighting. She fights him with the left eye, and when he’s buffed with both eyes, and she’s STILL keeping up with him. She’s not getting speed blitzed, because if she were then Bayonetta wouldn’t have any room to fight at all— because there’s still a tier difference.

Let’s say me and you get Into a fight, and I’m keeping up with you as we’re fighting. You then as we’re fighting, run up and punch me, which I don’t dodge. All of a sudden I’m not as fast as you? Because you got one hit in, we’re just going to ignore that i was fighting you on even terms just moments before? Of course not, I’m still relative to you. Bayonetta doesn’t have to be as fast as Aesir, but she’s still relative to his speed no matter what version he’s appeared in.

Yes I agree that Queen Sheba doesn’t need a weakened form, until we get more info on her atleast. Sheba is vastly superior to right eye jubileus, from her size, to how easily she’s dispatched. I can see the point you’re making, but again I disagree, as they’re all implied to be relative to one another, due to how they came into existence as a whole. They were all made to govern over an entire dimension, why would Queen Sheba be vastly weaker than Aesir and Jubileus?
 
Fighting a person doesn't mean much if the person isn't even trying that hard to beat you and succeeds with flying colors, being overpowered has nothing to do with speed, she could not react to the beam, if she was as fast as Loptr, she could've dodged the laser beam easily, but she wasn't able to. Again, keeping up with Aesir with both eyes when she was blitzed in a cutscene prior makes no sense at all. She didn't get any established power boost between the third fight and the final boss fight like how Dante gets Sparda Devil Trigger in the start of his fight with Mundus in DMC 1.

there's massive difference between you and me fighting, and Loptr and Bayonetta fighting. loptr isn't trying that hard in any of his fights, he's on the high ground mocking Bayonetta in the first fight, laughs while going off to do his own thing as a kid, and mocks bayonetta for being weak in the third fight while again, not remotely trying. If he was actually shown to be exhausted or pushed to his limits then sure she's capable of keeping up with him, but that's not what happened.

Ok, lemme ask you this. Why are we assuming Queen Sheba can be comparable to both Aesir and Jubileus when they have BOTH EYES of the world when they've never fought with both eyes, both in the games and lore? I never once denied Queen Sheba or Omne being comparable to their One Eye form, I'm doubting her and Omne scaling to them with BOTH EYES when both goddesses have no showing of being comparable with the gods that uses both eyes, and at best fought them with one eye.
 
So I'll just watch the Loptr fights to factcheck both of you.

Boss Fight 21 (Loptr)

-Start of the fight, Bayonetta reacts to and dodges Loptr's surprise attack.
-End of the fight, Loptr pushes her back and damages her. Then he leaves.

Boss Fight 21 Verdict: Not a blitz.

Final Boss Fight (Aesir)

-Start of the fight, Baldr literally dodges a laser attack from Aesir
-Pushes both of them back.
-Overpowers Baldr by controlling the Eye
-When the demons disappear he instantly dashes up to Bayo. This does not discount scaling however. The simple fact is that he blatantly got her while she was staggering, i.e at a moment when her reaction speed would be hindered.
-Aesir tags both with a laser. This =/= a blitz. Just because he hit them both with an attack =/= they still don't scale to speed.
-Bayo react to him throwing....whatever that thing is he throws at her, and sends it back. He then gets hit by said attack. Ergo, he gets tagged here.

Final Boss Verdict: I see no real "blitz" here.

Overall, I see no reason to deny any sort of speed scaling here. If there is a fight before Boss Fight 21 with Loptr (Those were the only ones Youtube gave me when searching for Loptr boss fights), please show it to me, otherwise I see nothing that says "no" to speed scaling.
 
Loptr is blatantly above Bayo and Baldr (Hence why I don't agree with them scaling in AP, but speed is another matter entirely). He's just not at the point in which they cannot keep up whatsoever when they are blatantly capable. The few times he has gotten the edge in speed, was when he got Bayo before she could react, and even then, this was in the act of her staggering. The laser beam, which is AoE btw, hitting them and them not dodging doesn't make it a blitz. They simply got hit. In a fight with people in your speed tier, you are bound to get hit, even by big attacks. Especially when in the very same fight, she reacts to another one of his attacks and counters it and manages to keep up with him constantly in all their other fights for extended periods of time.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Fighting a person doesn't mean much if the person isn't even trying that hard to beat you and succeeds with flying colors, being overpowered has nothing to do with speed, she could not react to the beam, if she was as fast as Loptr, she could've dodged the laser beam easily, but she wasn't able to. Again, keeping up with Aesir with both eyes when she was blitzed in a cutscene prior makes no sense at all. She didn't get any established power boost between the third fight and the final boss fight like how Dante gets Sparda Devil Trigger in the start of his fight with Mundus in DMC 1.

there's massive difference between you and me fighting, and Loptr and Bayonetta fighting. loptr isn't trying that hard in any of his fights, he's on the high ground mocking Bayonetta in the first fight, laughs while going off to do his own thing as a kid, and mocks bayonetta for being weak in the third fight while again, not remotely trying. If he was actually shown to be exhausted or pushed to his limits then sure she's capable of keeping up with him, but that's not what happened.

Ok, lemme ask you this. Why are we assuming Queen Sheba can be comparable to both Aesir and Jubileus when they have BOTH EYES of the world when they've never fought with both eyes, both in the games and lore? I never once denied Queen Sheba or Omne being comparable to their One Eye form, I'm doubting her and Omne scaling to them with BOTH EYES when both goddesses have no showing of being comparable with the gods that uses both eyes, and at best fought them with one eye.
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You assume Bayonetta is going all out? She doesn’t use her eye in basically ANY of her fights, nor does she use the serious form indicator that we get in Bayonetta 1. Bayonetta is hardly fighting to kill Loptr either, especially since she’s entirely confused on the situation.

By that flawed logic, then everyone’s scaling is untrue because the supposed 2-C feat doesn’t happen in the first place. Except that’s not the case at all. Yes Queen Sheba fights her 3-A form, however it’s obvious that Queen Sheba >>>> right eye Jubileus by a large amount. Only one character has used both eyes anyways, and guess who kept up with him for a period of time? Bayonetta and Balder, who summons Omne? Bayonetta and Balder. All of the god tiers are relative to one another, they don’t need the “Eye” to be massively powerful . Because Rodin never had an eye, and in LORE he was one of the strongest beings in paradiso. Author statements say he’s the strongest character in Bayonetta 1, and he literally refers to him as “The pimp of paradiso.” You can be strong without them.
 
Apparently he wants to remove their 3-A possibly 2-C rating, because nothing says they actually “scale”
 
If the laser hitting her when she has time to react doesn't count then fine I'll concede on the speed scaling.

She has no idea on how to use the left eye so that point doesn't really matter here. Also why would she not try to kill Loptr when he's trying to kill her? That makes no sense for her given killing isn't something she's not gonna do.

Massive false equivalence here. I never once said that the 2-C feat is something that never happened at all. If that was the case then why would I accept it for Aesir and Jubileus? Again, she's shown to be stronger than right eye jubileus AFTER she was beaten down by left eye bayonetta. Omne does not scale at all cause his eyes were erased, can you please pay attention to this part of the argument? Cause that's the only time Omne showed up. Again that has nothing to do with the 2-C feat in general. Being absolutely strong doesn't matter in this case because them being absolutely strong, at best scales from One eye Jubileus via the onscreen feat they have.

@Dragonmasterxyz I'm arguing that the 3-A to 2-C scaling Omne and Sheba has shouldn't be a thing because nothing in their lores or their onscreen feats remotely implies they can handle Jubileus or Loptr with both eyes, at best they've shown to beat the gods with one Eye or no eyes, and that weakened Sheba shouldn't be a thing cause nothing in the lore suggests that she was weakened.
 
Do we have any lore regarding the two? Also, I assumed that Sheba was the Inferno opposite to Jubileus. But once again, lore would be nice for those two. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind taking the safer, "At least 3-A, likely higher" rating for them unless something else comes to light.
 
??? It’s been months after Bayonetta 1, and you really think she doesn’t know how to use her eye? She used her left eye in her fight with jubileus, so she obviously had some knowledge of its use, and how it boosts her power. If not, then base Bayonetta > right eye jubileus, because if she doesn’t know how to use her eye, it can’t count as an amp.

I still disagree. As I said many times before, all of the gods are implied to be relative to one another. Each given one realm to rule over, it would make no sense for one of them to be immensely weaker than the other two. Especially since Queen Sheba rules over inferno, a dimension in a CONSTANT state of disarray and war.

Queen Sheba: “When the cosmos was split into light, darkness, and the chaos in-between, the incredibly powerful Sheba was born alongside the darkness controlling the world of Inferno. She lives in the hellish land, and is often classified as a demon; however, the full details of her existence are unknown.”

Omne:
"An omniscient being formed by a miraculous unison of the powers of Paradiso and Inferno.
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The past leaders of the Umbra and Lumen clans, though they were aware of Omne's existence, were unable to summon it to this realm. It took the combined power of light and darkness, united in the bond of father and daughter, to finally summon Omne successfully.
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Possessing the qualities of both darkness and light, it can defeat even the most despondent of chaos."
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Im very much against changing their keys.
 
Balder was the one who activated the left eye for her though, she never activated it on her own after the Jubileus fight cause Balder was the one who activated it in the first place.

If Queen Sheba or Omne have done anything in the games or have any lore information that implies that they could be comparable to Jubileus with both eyes or Aesir with his eyes, or that they're able to replicate the same feats both eyes are able to do, then I can see where scaling them to 3-A and 2-C comes from, but they just have ruling their own realms and beating no eyes Loptr and One Eye Jubileus as a feat to scale from, which again gives them merely 3-A.
 
Theglassman12 said:
she couldn't react to the laser shots Loptr made so why should she scale to his attack speed, and after she summons the demons and turns around he zips right up to her and got her neck before she could react, either way she gets outsped by Loptr more than once in all of their fights.

So you agree that weakened form as a whole shouldn't be a thing on the pages. That doesn't answer my question though. One eye jubileus is only 3-A, she's not 3-A to 2-C at all, and she easily dealt with a Jubileus who's been beaten to a pulp. Implied from what? drop kicking Loptr at base form? He's at best 3-A if we're to accept Rodin scaling to this level.
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That’s not true at all. Bayonetta easily dodges the first attack in the beginning of their first fight with no problem at all. Plus in all the scripted qte’s she’s able to counter all of his attempts to kill her quite easily. This shows that they’re equal in attack strength and speed.
 
Commented a bit too late my guy. I already dropped the topic on speed. Right now I’m arguing on the tiering
 
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