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As clarification for the Immeasurable Speed, BayonettaMinaj's work here should provide some more context.
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Transdual Bayonetta
- Thread starter Comicgyal
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thats more hax then attack speed
immeasurable attack speed via hax?????
i'll be neutral
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- #44
He did not project himself to the past. A version of himself already existed in the past, and attacked his present self, which is immeasurable attack speed.
That wasn’t the argument for acausality at all.
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- #45
Here’s the first scan I could find. An Angel being stated to exist before the concept of history, which also translates over to aesir and jubi, as they existed before this Angel too.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Alright, that works for me. Predating the concept of causality is very explicit,
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- #47
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,892
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Based on the scan this was what happend.
Also if you can come to the present to attack k yourself that is still time traveling and not immeasurable attack speed.
- 8,567
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- #50
He didn’t come to the present, he attacked from the past.
- 1,701
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- #51
Again, what’s wrong with it tho? They say multiple times that they’re creating a new era of time / flow of history, so its still a brand new system.
PrinceofPein
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We literally saw his projection
- 1,701
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- #53
His projection of.. the past? I don’t get what you’re trying to say. His past self attacked him when Loki saw a projection of the past.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,892
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Yes it's called time travel when you project yourself into the future not immeasurable speed.
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- #55
He didn’t project himself into the future, he attacks from the past.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,892
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And where is your proof? Unless it was stated to be through sheer speed it is time travel. Since we indeed see his past self attacking the present one through a projection
- 1,701
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- #57
It’s immeasurable attack speed, not movement speed. So him attacking from the past works for that.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,892
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Same thing here, it was not done through speed it was done through a projection simple as that.
I am sounding like a broken record now.
- 8,567
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Yeah and everytime they are talking about reseting reality, not outright creating something completely different. It's the new system just back from 0.
- 1,701
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- #60
Did you miss the three times they said they’d create a new reality? They don’t say they’re resetting reality, i said they’re resetting past present and future when they’re merging it into something new.
- 8,567
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Nah I didn't miss it, just like how I didn't miss they explicitly saying it's a cycle that will start again. It is new, yeah, a new beginning of the same thing.
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- #62
Quote it? Because this explicitly says a New cycle of creation will begin, not the same cycle. It can’t be a new beginning of the same thing, since it’s merging the entire trinity into one single unit. It is fundamentally impossible for it to be the same. It won’t even be the same universe. So not sure where you’re getting that from.
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From what I'm understanding of your perspective, you believe Loptr is using a sort of portal from the past to attack Loki who's in the present? What's happening is that Loki is SEEING the past, and Loptr is attacking him FROM the past. The only reason it looks like a portal is so that we can visualise it.
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@Comicgyal remind me, was the remembrance of time stuff happening because of Aesir or something else?
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Yes not to mention Balder specificly stated how Jubileus action will allow rise to a new era and history even blatantly said Time itself will began anew
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And Jubi was able to do all of this even survive its re-unified due to her posses the Eyes
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- #68
The remembrances are Aesirs sort of memories of their world, he observed things and recorded them in their reality like a picture.
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I agree
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I can see Immeasurable attack speed for Aesir, but I don’t recall anyone ever reacting to this so this seems like something for Aesir only.
type 4 Acausality for some of the gods is fine if they exist before the concept of history was a thing.
Transduality type 2 I’m still a bit unsure of, pretty sure we’d need them stated to be above those dual natures, though to answer your question comic, you just need more than one duality mentioned as well as it extending across reality to get type 2, you don’t need a statement that all dualities ever are transcended.
type 4 Acausality for some of the gods is fine if they exist before the concept of history was a thing.
Transduality type 2 I’m still a bit unsure of, pretty sure we’d need them stated to be above those dual natures, though to answer your question comic, you just need more than one duality mentioned as well as it extending across reality to get type 2, you don’t need a statement that all dualities ever are transcended.
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- #73
Well Loki does technically react to him during the scene, also that happened when he was Loptr, so once he ascends to double eyed Aesir he should be exponentially faster.
As for the transduality bit, when you say you need to be above those dual natures, do you mean in a QS way? I have the argument of aesir being above them, but if it has something to do with QS I’m at a loss. If he’s above the dual natures, but doesn’t transcend their cosmology in a QS way he can’t get transduality?
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@Comicgyal Did he? The powerpoint presentation cutscene makes it somewhat hard to tell.
I don't recall if transcending the cosmology would automatically equate to being transdual in nature, that feels a bit too vague given Aesir even has the whole "transcending time and space" line, though is that is enough for type 2 Transdual by some other verse's explanation then I guess it can be fine.
I don't recall if transcending the cosmology would automatically equate to being transdual in nature, that feels a bit too vague given Aesir even has the whole "transcending time and space" line, though is that is enough for type 2 Transdual by some other verse's explanation then I guess it can be fine.
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- #75
Yeah sorta. The first time he’s caught off guard, but the second time he can react well enough to guard himself, and then pull out a card. Loki is pretty slow in comparison to someone like Bayonetta herself (looking at his fights with balder) so it’s impressive that even he can put up his hands in time.
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that scan doesn't really show him reacting to Loptr's attack though, he gets hit and then pulls out a card. Loptr being Immeasurable with attack speed via this I can be ok with.
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Op updated now I agree with Aesir getting Transduality type 2, Singularity would need more context to solidify type 2.
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- #79
Personally I’d argue that Loki is reacting a bit, since the first time he gets blasted backwards with no guard or retaliation, but the second time he puts his hands up and throws a card back. If we find that to be too dubious alls fine, but I think it just speaks for Loptr/Aesirs attack speed in general, as it’s just a normal attack from him. Bayonetta herself is able to fight against and keep up with him multiple times.
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You know where I stand on Bayo scaling to Loptr, let alone Aesir so I’m not really gung-ho on her scaling to his immeasurable speed, especially when I don’t recall him doing that same attack against her and her reacting to it.
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