Transdual Bayonetta

[Comicgyal]

Hello, this is a quick thread (before I forget about it.) This thread will be addressing immeasurable speed, transduality, and acausality for Bayoverse.

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Immeasurable

For starters, immeasurable speed was removed from the profiles. I’m unsure why, but it will be placed back to its old justification found here. But on another note, we can improve upon it.

Here, and here, Loptr attacks his present self from hundreds of years into the past. The projection is called a “Remembrance of Time” which allows Loki to peer into the past. While doing this, his past self (who is quite the transcendent being) attacked him from that point. This is immeasurable attack speed and reactions for Loptr, Loki, and anyone who upscales.

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Acausality

Eye wielders such as Jubileus, Aesir, Bayonetta and Balder should get Acausality type 4.

Jubileus when she gained both eyes, as Balder stated, was going to merge the entire Trinity. She was not going to just merge the universes, but it’s history, ushering in a new cycle of creation. This would have merged all of time past, present, and future, resetting it entirely.

When Aesir ― a being that can transcend time and space ― regains the power of the "Overseer", the fate of the entire world will be in his hands, be it in the past, present or future. However, there is no doubt it was mankind that sowed the seeds of evil in Aesir. Whatever he does after regaining his power, it will have been retribution for their sins.

This shows how they possess their own laws of Causality, as they would be unaffected by this merging of their entire history. This should be applied to all eye wielders, Jubileus, Aesir, Bayonetta & Balder etc.

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Transduality

Alright for some background, the human world existed without fundamental concepts for the humans to exist. As luka describes it, they were as simple as “Reeds”

But Aesir soon after bestowed upon them the concept of Free Will, along with the eyes of the world. This allowed them to, in Lukas words start “thinking.” They could now choose their destinies, as their Will was no longer Aesirs. Along with creating concepts to be governed by, after awakening to their identities.

Aesir granted mankind the power of his "Eyes of the World", and with it, they gained free will. With that, came ideas of triumph and defeat; truth and falsehood; and feelings of hatred, betrayal, envy and scorn. Mankind became intoxicated by their newly gained free will, which eventually gave Aesir a wish to take back the power he'd given them.

Their free will and new power created dualistic concepts such as triumph and defeat. This is nothing new, as the very thoughts and ideas of humans create concepts, hence the creation of the Cardinal Virtues. These dualistic concepts came to govern their reality completely.

So where does the transduality come from? Aesir for one stated that his will was going to overtake their entire reality. Stripping their free will, and all other concepts they created underneath it. Equating their concept to an illusion. As the dual concepts existed after his existence, naturally he is unbound by it. Matched with his statements of existing in a different dimension that transcends their space time, and ability that’s capable of erasing anything in their universe (which would include these concepts) Type 2 should be applicable here.

It’s possible that Singularity also has type 2 here. Becoming an existence that’s equated to being the World of Chaos itself (where all these concepts reside) He erased all of the universes and eliminated all impure information, transforming the world into one of his definition. Altering everything that existed previously. I’m unsure if this qualifies, but it’s worth discussing.

Agree: WeeklyBattles, TokiNoOuja, DarkDragonMedeus(Neutral on TD), FinalActOne, Eseso (Unsure on TD), MadDogFugiwara (On Acausality), Abu, BayonettaXMinaj, TheGlassman
Disagree: PrinceofPein, Geo (On TD), Asd
Neutral

 

[TokiNoOuja]

I agree since we already discussed this before

Anyway more evidence for Acausality :


At (4:42:22) the Lumen and Witches with the Eyes posses power to create History and control Reality itself

At (6:31:36) Jubileus action will gave rise to a new History

At (6:32:19) A new Era,A new Reality

At (6:42:19) Time itself will begin anew

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Hello, this is a quick thread (before I forget about it.) This thread will be addressing immeasurable speed, transduality, and acausality for Bayoverse.

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Immeasurable

For starters, immeasurable speed was removed from the profiles. I’m unsure why, but it will be placed back to its old justification found here. But on another note, we can improve upon it.

Here, and here, Loptr attacks his present self from hundreds of years into the past. The projection is called a “Remembrance of Time” which allows Loki to peer into the past. While doing this, his past self (who is quite the transcendent being) attacked him from that point. This is immeasurable attack speed and reactions for Loptr, Loki, and anyone who upscales.

---

Acausality

Eye wielders such as Jubileus, Aesir, Bayonetta and Balder should get Acausality type 4.

Jubileus when she gained both eyes, as Balder stated, was going to merge the entire Trinity. She was not going to just merge the universes, but it’s history, ushering in a new cycle of creation. This would have merged all of time past, present, and future, resetting it entirely.


This shows how they possess their own laws of Causality, as they would be unaffected by this merging of their entire history. This should be applied to all eye wielders, Jubileus, Aesir, Bayonetta & Balder etc.

---

Transduality

Alright for some background, the human world existed without fundamental concepts for the humans to exist. As luka describes it, they were as simple as “Reeds”

But Aesir soon after bestowed upon them the concept of Free Will, along with the eyes of the world. This allowed them to, in Lukas words start “thinking.” They could now choose their destinies, as their Will was no longer Aesirs. Along with creating concepts to be governed by, after awakening to their identities.



Their free will and new power created dualistic concepts such as triumph and defeat. This is nothing new, as the very thoughts and ideas of humans create concepts, hence the creation of the Cardinal Virtues. These dualistic concepts came to govern their reality completely.

So where does the transduality come from? Aesir for one stated that his will was going to overtake their entire reality. Stripping their free will, and all other concepts they created underneath it. Equating their concept to an illusion. As the dual concepts existed after his existence, naturally he is unbound by it. Matched with his statements of existing in a different dimension that transcends their space time, and ability that’s capable of erasing anything in their universe (which would include these concepts) Type 2 should be applicable here.

It’s possible that Singularity also has type 2 here. Becoming an existence that’s equated to being the World of Chaos itself (where all these concepts reside) He erased all of the universes and eliminated all impure information, transforming the world into one of his definition. Altering everything that existed previously. I’m unsure if this qualifies, but it’s worth discussing.

Btw shouldnt Singularity have EE along with Information Manipulation?since he erase all impure information across the Multiverse

 

[Comicgyal]

Btw shouldnt Singularity have EE along with Information Manipulation?since he erase all impure information across the Multiverse

Yeeeh, but that’ll be for our hax thread

 

[Robo432343]

wtf are cardinal virtues in the concept scan

 

[FinalActOne]

Seems good but I think you are going to need more context on the transduality section.

 

[Comicgyal]

wtf are cardinal virtues in the concept scan

They’re a concept created by humanity’s thoughts.

 

[Comicgyal]

Seems good but I think you are going to need more context on the transduality section.

Which part in particular?

 

[Georredannea15]

Type 2 Transduality seems to be at best Type 1. For type 2, a statement is required that all duality systems or simply dualism exist in the reality.

Also, existing before duality systems is absolutely and definitely not enough for Transduality. This is like saying that a character who exists before space and time also transcends space and time.

Also, not being bound to duality systems is at best a non-duality, not a transduality, also existing before these dualities does not mean being independent of the effects of these dualities. Both are completely different.

Transduality is not simply nonduality, but additionally requires something like qualitative superiority or immunity to attacks bound to the duality in question.

Simply put, if we call a duality system 0 and 1, a transdual being must be 2 or higher.


I disagree with transduality, the others seem fine.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Oh yeah another good evidence for Acausality is that the struggles before Trinity stated to be an event that Unrecorded from History itself

 

[Comicgyal]

Type 2 Transduality seems to be at best Type 1. For type 2, a statement is required that all duality systems or simply dualism exist in the reality.

Unsure on what you mean here. I gave an example of quoted dualities that exist in their reality.

Also, existing before duality systems is absolutely and definitely not enough for Transduality. This is like saying that a character who exists before space and time also transcends space and time.

Also, not being bound to duality systems is at best a non-duality, not a transduality, also existing before these dualities does not mean being independent of the effects of these dualities. Both are completely different.

Not really the same in this case. We’re discussing a character that could freely act before these dual systems came into place, in comparison to individuals that could do absolutely nothing until they were created. He existed before them, and were unaffected by their creation, and would be unaffected by their erasure.

Simply put, if we call a duality system 0 and 1, a transdual being must be 2 or higher.


I disagree with transduality, the others seem fine.

As mentioned, Aesir is beyond the scope of their reality, Luka himself affirms this by saying:

“Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir sees through reality and those visions became our world.”


He is completely unbound by anything they’ve created within their universe, as those laws only apply to them.

 

[Georredannea15]

Unsure on what you mean here. I gave an example of quoted dualities that exist in their reality.

These are specific dualities, at best type 1, for type 2 it should be stated that reality has all duality systems or dualism.

Not really the same in this case. We’re discussing a character that could freely act before these dual systems came into place, in comparison to individuals that could do absolutely nothing until they were created. He existed before them, and were unaffected by their creation, and would be unaffected by their erasure.

This... does not mean that they are still completely independent of duality systems.

It is like arguing that because there is no concept of fire in a reality, beings that have never been burnt by fire are immune to the concept of fire. But, this is wrong

And as mentioned on the Transduality page, Transduality requires a transcendence such as qualitative transcendence towards concepts, otherwise it is not Transduality.
And to exist before these systems... is certainly not independence from them. And even if there is independence, it is not a transduality.

As mentioned, Aesir is beyond the scope of their reality, Luka himself affirms this by saying:

“Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir sees through reality and those visions became our world.”

Well, this statement does not seem to speak of some kind of transcendence or immunity. It's just seems like manipulating them, not a transcends or immunity

He is completely unbound by anything they’ve created within their universe, as those laws only apply to them.

As I said, you cannot interpret exist before systems as independence or immunity to those systems. And being independent of duality systems is not Transduality, as stated on the page.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Weve already talked about this extensively so you know i agree

 

[Theglassman12]

I don’t think that would be enough for Transduality. It just says that certain concepts came to be, and that they would be gone when Aesir gets his powers back to strip others of their free will. For Transduality there has to be an actual dual nature concept being transcended for an individual like them being unbound by those very dual nature itself. Final Fantasy has a somewhat similar scan with Cloud of Darkness “transcending all Concepts”, but that wouldn’t qualify for Transduality as nothing about it mentions dual natures being something CoD transcends. You might be able to argue type 2 concept resistance for Aesir? But idk how solid that would be.

I’ll comment on the other abilities later.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral about Transduality, but everything else looks good.

 

[Comicgyal]

I don’t think that would be enough for Transduality. It just says that certain concepts came to be, and that they would be gone when Aesir gets his powers back to strip others of their free will. For Transduality there has to be an actual dual nature concept being transcended for an individual like them being unbound by those very dual nature itself. Final Fantasy has a somewhat similar scan with Cloud of Darkness “transcending all Concepts”, but that wouldn’t qualify for Transduality as nothing about it mentions dual natures being something CoD transcends. You might be able to argue type 2 concept resistance for Aesir? But idk how solid that would be.

I’ll comment on the other abilities later.

I did ask Ultima about it, and he said that the concepts mentioned ( Triumph and Defeat, Truth and Falsehood ) due to being concepts brought about together, can be classified as dual concepts. Which is obvious enough, as Triumph and Defeat are diametrically opposed. Since they are dual concepts, him transcending their space time and being unbound by them could qualify. Though I’m a bit uncertain about what type still, as the user above brought up.

To be clear, it has to state that the reality contains “All dualities” ?

 

[Comicgyal]

These are specific dualities, at best type 1, for type 2 it should be stated that reality has all duality systems or dualism.

This... does not mean that they are still completely independent of duality systems.

It is like arguing that because there is no concept of fire in a reality, beings that have never been burnt by fire are immune to the concept of fire. But, this is wrong

Again, not.. really? It would be like if fire didn’t exist, it was then created, and the beings that existed before the fires creation are unaffected by the now existing fire. That’s what I’m suggesting. The dual concepts that were introduced do not affect aesir in any way, he intended to destroy them all and replace them with his will.

If type 1 is more apt, I’m fine with that.

 

[Georredannea15]

Again, not.. really? It would be like if fire didn’t exist, it was then created, and the beings that existed before the fires creation are unaffected by the now existing fire. That’s what I’m suggesting. The dual concepts that were introduced do not affect aesir in any way, he intended to destroy them all and replace them with his will.

If type 1 is more apt, I’m fine with that.

The problem is that this is not Transduality. You become immune to the effects of a concept that doesn't exist because a duality that doesn't exist in reality doesn't affect you anyway.

So, just because you are not affected by the concept of fire when you existed before the concept of fire, does not mean that after the concept fire exists you will not be affected and will transcend it.

The important thing is to transcend these dualities as they exist. What Glass is talking about is not to exist before these binary systems, but to transcend them and become immune to their effects. But that's not the case here. I mean... it would be healthier to ask him, but I think this is more or less the case

And yes, if there is a transduality here, it would be type 1, but I do not agree that it should be

 

[Comicgyal]

The problem is that this is not Transduality. You become immune to the effects of a concept that doesn't exist because a duality that doesn't exist in reality doesn't affect you anyway.

The duality’s DO exist. The concepts are there.

So, just because you are not affected by the concept of fire when you existed before the concept of fire, does not mean that after the concept fire exists you will not be affected and will transcend it.

I understand that. I am saying that even after they exist, he is not affected by them.

The important thing is to transcend these dualities as they exist. What Glass is talking about is not to exist before these binary systems, but to transcend them and become immune to their effects. But that's not the case here. I mean... it would be healthier to ask him, but I think this is more or less the case

And yes, if there is a transduality here, it would be type 1, but I do not agree that it should be

Yeah again, Aesir is immune to the dualities that humanity created, as they were only created for the purpose of giving them the ability to live their lives.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Idk, that sounds more like type 1 acausality than type 4.

Reality is just resting itself so everything starts again. In the end it will be the same world and same rules which type 1 covers while type 4 is to work on different stuff.

 

[Comicgyal]

Idk, that sounds more like type 1 acausality than type 4.

Reality is just resting itself so everything starts again. In the end it will be the same world and same rules which type 1 covers while type 4 is to work on different stuff.

Wouldn’t be the same world, it would be a different world, and they call it a new reality from the foundation of the old.

 

[Georredannea15]

I understand that. I am saying that even after they exist, he is not affected by them.

This can also be a resistance. You need a transcendence to become Transduality. Just read the page

Yeah again, Aesir is immune to the dualities that humanity created, as they were only created for the purpose of giving them the ability to live their lives.

“Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir sees through reality and those visions became our world.”

I did not see any transcendence or immunity in the scans. The statement I quoted above seems to describe that being unaffected by the concepts is actually a kind of resistance. He's resistance to them because of the power he has, nothing to do with his state of being.

Even if we assume as you say, this "not being affected by concepts" would be a non-duality at best, still not sufficient for Transduality.

And I still say the same thing. What you say is just interpretation, that just because you existed before these systems does not mean that you are not affected by them and that you are immune to them.

 

[Fixxed]

No qualitative superiority or immunity to duality mean no transduality. Just prove if he immune

And when i read again the "duality" scan. It like just something we not accept as duality in here. Of course truth and false can be duality but not always, so you must prove if that two thing is contradict also interwined with each other like two side of coin

I doubt it was duality because this sentence, because it not tell us about duality even if it one same sentence with the "duality", i doubt if the "duality" in here is same as duality that we use

With that, came ideas of triumph and defeat; truth and falsehood; and feelings of hatred, betrayal, envy and scorn.

So can you provide some proof about the "duality" in here is like duality that we use???

 

[Fixxed]

You need a transcendence to become Transduality.

No transcendence it just will get resistence by default. What you need is completely transcendence that get immunity

 

[Georredannea15]

No transcendence it just will get resistence by default. What you need is completely transcendence that get immunity

I have already stated that.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Wouldn’t be the same world, it would be a different world, and they call it a new reality from the foundation of the old.

That isn't what you said or what the context shows tho

Jubileus when she gained both eyes, as Balder stated, was going to merge the entire Trinity. She was not going to just merge the universes, but it’s history, ushering in a new cycle of creation. This would have merged all of time past, present, and future, resetting it entirely.

At (6:31:36) Jubileus action will gave rise to a new History

At (6:32:19) A new Era,A new Reality

At (6:42:19) Time itself will begin anew


All that just means the world is starting again, not that a new world with a completely different causality system, laws and all that is about to start.

 

[Comicgyal]

That isn't what you said or what the context shows tho

I said she was ushering in a new cycle of creation, and resetting past present and future completely as a result of that.

At (6:32:19) A new Era,A new Reality

At (6:42:19) Time itself will begin anew


All that just means the world is starting again, not that a new world with a completely different causality system, laws and all that is about to start.

It mentions that it’s a new era, and a new reality in the quotes you just mentioned. Since it’s not the same world, it wouldn’t operate under the same causality system. it’s also a unification of three worlds, all of which have their own laws that they abide by, as well as being separate spacetime. So it’s definitely going to be a completely new system.

 

[Comicgyal]

Also, for now I’m going to halt the transdual. So let’s just focus on everything else. If you already shared your opinions on the other two matters no need to restate unless they’ve changed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It mentions that it’s a new era, and a new reality in the quotes you just mentioned. Since it’s not the same world, it wouldn’t operate under the same causality system. it’s also a unification of three worlds, all of which have their own laws that they abide by, as well as being separate spacetime. So it’s definitely going to be a completely new system.

What? That's not how that works at all. If this is the only thing supporting acausality, then I disagree.

Will look at the rest later.

 

[Comicgyal]

What? That's not how that works at all. If this is the only thing supporting acausality, then I disagree.

Will look at the rest later.

What part of this doesn’t work exactly?

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Being unchanged from the world entering one system of causality to another, would mean they operate on a different system entirely.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What part of this doesn’t work exactly?



Being unchanged from the world entering one system of causality to another, would mean they operate on a different system entirely.

Nothing says they're entering a different system of causality, though? We don't just assume that making a new universe = making a new causal system (or at least, not one that functions differently). Otherwise, everyone with dimensional travel would get type 4 acausality as well.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Jubileus literally gonna reset everything in the old Creation which resulted to the creation of the new flow of Era/History and Time

This is pretty much affecting the entirely of History/Time of the Trinity,wiped it and began from 0,this isn't just a simple reset tho as it ranged from any point' of time across the Space Multiverse

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Nothing says they're entering a different system of causality, though? We don't just assume that making a new universe = making a new causal system (or at least, not one that functions differently). Otherwise, everyone with dimensional travel would get type 4 acausality as well.

Not how it works,never argued about Jubileus got it from ruling a new Universe,thats the result of her action while we should focus on how she do it which is reseting every single point' in History (Past, Present and Future) across Trinity

 

[Comicgyal]

Nothing says they're entering a different system of causality, though? We don't just assume that making a new universe = making a new causal system (or at least, not one that functions differently). Otherwise, everyone with dimensional travel would get type 4 acausality as well.

As the above stated, it’s not just making a new universe, but creating an entirely new flow of time. As I said to Tony, this new reality would be a result of also merging two other, completely separate universes, whom also have their own laws that differ from one another.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not how it works,never argued about Jubileus got it from ruling a new Universe,thats the result of her action while we should focus on how she do it which is reseting every single point' in History (Past, Present and Future) across Trinity

I know that. That doesn't give you acausality by default though.

As the above stated, it’s not just making a new universe, but creating an entirely new flow of time. As I said to Tony, this new reality would be a result of also merging two other, completely separate universes, whom also have their own laws that differ from one another.

The "laws that differ from one another" bit is news to me, do you have scans of this? Again, though, making a new flow of time isn't grounds for type 4 acausality. It's just time manipulation.

 

[Comicgyal]

I know that. That doesn't give you acausality by default though.


The "laws that differ from one another" bit is news to me, do you have scans of this? Again, though, making a new flow of time isn't grounds for type 4 acausality. It's just time manipulation.

The most recent example is from Bayonetta 3. All denizens of the World of Chaos have infinite multiversal counterparts due to being born there. This is something that it’s fellow realms, Paradiso and Inferno, do not share, and it’s inhabitants are not subject to this rule even if they live there.

As he is not originally a resident of the World of Chaos he doesn’t have any counterparts in the Multiverse, but he’s rumored to seal weapons to customers on other worlds as well.

So each realm have different laws that they abide by.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The most recent example is from Bayonetta 3. All denizens of the World of Chaos have infinite multiversal counterparts due to being born there. This is something that it’s fellow realms, Paradiso and Inferno, do not share, and it’s inhabitants are not subject to this rule even if they live there.



So each realm have different laws that they abide by.

Uh

That isn't really tied to time or causality... It doesn't make any sense to say that "this person exists in a world without multiversal counterparts, ergo they are unaffected by cause and effect".

 

[TokiNoOuja]

I know that. That doesn't give you acausality by default though.


The "laws that differ from one another" bit is news to me, do you have scans of this? Again, though, making a new flow of time isn't grounds for type 4 acausality. It's just time manipulation.

How so?she unnaffected by the Trinity re-unified shown how she has her own laws of Causality,this eventually backed up by the fact that beings like Aesir and Jubi was exist during the First Armageddon,which is an event that preceed the existence of History which dedcibed as Unrecorded by History itself

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How so?she unnaffected by the Trinity re-unified shown how she has her own laws of Causality,this eventually backed up by the fact that beings like Aesir and Jubi was exist during the First Armageddon,which is an event that preceed the existence of History which dedcibed as Unrecorded by History itself

Where is this stated?

I could buy type 4 acausality for Aesir and Jubi if you could provide scans of them preceding history.

 

[PrinceofPein]

For starters, immeasurable speed was removed from the profiles. I’m unsure why, but it will be placed back to its old justification found here. But on another note, we can improve upon it.

Do you have a statement of them running through time? The video just shows them running and a bright light

Here, and here, Loptr attacks his present self from hundreds of years into the past. The projection is called a “Remembrance of Time” which allows Loki to peer into the past. While doing this, his past self (who is quite the transcendent being) attacked him from that point. This is immeasurable attack speed and reactions for Loptr, Loki, and anyone who upscales.

This by itself is not immeasurable speed, having to project yourself to the past or future to attack is time travel and not immeasurable speed.


Disagree on the Acausality, regaining power and fhe fate of the entire world in your hands does not mean you have your own laws of causality.

Disagree on the TD FRA