Bayonetta/Umbra Witch weakness addition (Regarding the Umbran Watches)

[Jinx666]

Noticed especially from the 2nd and 3rd Game that the Umbran Watch seems to be core to Bayonetta's, Jeanne's, etc immortality by age ability, as well as their control over their demons. We see in the 3rd game that she loses control of Gomorrah once her Umbran Heart is damaged and broken, as well as other Bayonetta variants dying when their Umbran Watches get shattered. ITs probably noteworthy enough to mention given its a huge source of the derivation of her power.

It probably belongs on the Umbra Witch/Lumen Sage physiology page too, but noteworthy enough to mention directly on the pages with all the Umbra Witch profiles (Except maybe Viola since she doesn't seem to own an Umbran Watch yet? She's likely still in her teen/young adult years anyway), and possibly even with Balder.

 

[Jinx666]

bump?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yeah this is fine. I was planning on this a little bit later once we got other things out of the way, but it works now.

although I’m not sure about claiming it to be a major source of their power in general considering viola isn’t indicated to have one and still has a degree of magic prowess.

I think it’s more specifically related to life force than it is their magic in general. Gomorrah going haywire could be attributed to bayo succumbing to exhaustion, but I’ll take another look at the scene later.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Bump

 

[Jinx666]

This is unrelated to the weakness addition but is there any reason why Bayonettas summons like Madama Butterfly or Gomorrah arent also scaled to everyone else, and are instead so far away in Tier 6? Outside of their Sin forms ofc

We see from cutscenes Madama Butterfly can directly hurt characters like Singularity, she is pretty much Bayo's most reliable summon she uses to fight with via wicked weaves, and heck Gomorrah has killed both Jeanne and Bayo (Albeit Jeanne was a victim of PIS, and Bayo was practically drained), as well as overpowered a somewhat weakened Singularity (Who deff shouldn't be so weak he can get killed by a Tier 6)?

I know theres a degree of superiority from the summoner and the demons but given these demons are practically a vital asset Umbra Witches use in combat, they shouldn't be this low tiered compared to everything else

At least for the case of Madama Butterfly, who we see from the 3 Bayos fighting singularity that they each have THEIR Madama from their respective game, rather than sharing (Madama Butterfly did used to be human, so she along with other humans-turned-demons would logically bypass the 'only 1 of each Inferno/Paradiso resident' thing).

Only thing that seems wrong is that Summons from Bayo 1 don't exactly feel like it. This would also scale to the cardinals, which is weird to put within the same tier as Jubileus but that just feels like Bayonetta (the series) not caring about consistent powerscaling

 

[Jinx666]

Like idk it just seems hella weird to place Madama so low tier wise when shes literally the main source of Bayo's strength andwe actively see her beating down characters like Singularity (Ik Rodin no diffed her punch in the 2nd game, but thats literally Rodin). Bayo shouldnt logically keep contracts with demons that cant fight up to her par.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Like idk it just seems hella weird to place Madama so low tier wise when shes literally the main source of Bayo's strength andwe actively see her beating down characters like Singularity (Ik Rodin no diffed her punch in the 2nd game, but thats literally Rodin). Bayo shouldnt logically keep contracts with demons that cant fight up to her par.

The thing is Bayo canonically fights and stomps the majority of her demons

 

[Jinx666]

Well yeah she does, but we've only ever seen her do that directly to Gomorrah (And even then she had to use Labolas to actually finish it off, after Gomorrah was considered enough of a bossfight, right after being able to kill Jeanne).

Bayo is definitely stronger than her usual demons, but cases like Madama are literally the derivations of her strength, and demons are the source of all umbra witches' power. Surely the Low 1-C tier (as crazy as it sounds, i personally hate trying to scale cosmology-terms), is vast enough to include 2 characters even though 1 could stomp the other? Bayo 3 definitely gives Madama a stronger role too where shes able to take on one of the big Homunculi warship things on her own (for clarification, when she goes red and Bayo literally says 'consider this a tip' where she just lets Madama go wild on her own).

Theres no direct confirmation Bayo amps her demons to be able to stand on par, and their attacks are still used to harm others on her tier of power. As much as Bayo can beat them (but still opts to actually use other demons to fight other demons), she could theoretically stomp any tier inbetween High 6-A and Low 1-C. It doesnt make much sense to me either that pretty much every big angel/demon that can fight/kill scale to even the same tier as Singularity, but Madama and Gomorrah at the least definitely feel like they arent Tier 6'ing way behind, when theres genuine cutscenes and proof of them inflicting injury to ppl who should be Waaaaaaaaaaay above their tier

 

[Jinx666]

I mean we even see Bayo practically fodderise Strider, who in the end was still capable of fighting Singularity, as well as oneshotting most of her practical demons from the gameplay (even Madama and Gomorrah), but he's still Low 1-C alongside the scaling. We never see anything direct of the Strider 'getting stronger', other than Luka being able to control it, but that is less leaning towards power and more just knowing how to unleash his power on command.

I would say Bayonetta's way of stomping is through skill rather than sheer AP, within her verse ofc

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Loptr one shots labolas and hydra effortlessly.

Balder in bayo 1 easily snaps gomorrahs neck and one shots scolependra.

Balder in bayo 2 one shots labolas

Homunculi bosses such as iridescent and those 2 dragons one shot demons like Gomorrah and Malphas. These bosses are portrayed as well superior to the likes of Cumulonimbus who’s in turn portrayed to be equal to the likes of Gomorrah and wartrain gouon.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Madama B probably has the best chance but she’s very clearly shown to be equal to temperentia based on the 1st Balder fight in bayo 2.

 

[Jinx666]

Loptr one shots labolas and hydra effortlessly.

Balder in bayo 1 easily snaps gomorrahs neck and one shots scolependra.

Balder in bayo 2 one shots labolas

Homunculi bosses such as iridescent and those 2 dragons one shot demons like Gomorrah and Malphas. These bosses are portrayed as well superior to the likes of Cumulonimbus who’s in turn portrayed to be equal to the likes of Gomorrah and wartrain gouon.

Well yeah but why does this disprove them being within the same tier compared to them being so far behind in Tier 6 that Bayo is relying on demons that are supposedly far weaker than her base for full power?

They're clearly stornger than the summons, but does that mean the summons cant exist within the same tier? Gomorrah in turn is capable of finishing off singularity (which again, a character like Singularity weakening to Multi-Continental levels is a little farfetch'd), then killing Bayo with a strike (like he did to Jeanne).

I'd say all the bosses of each Bayo-universe we fight are essentially the same. They have the same elemental theme going on as the cardinals did in the first game, and all require bayonetta to summon a Sin form of a demon to kill, apart from B4 which was her literally fighting herself. We even see Viola take on Cumulonimbus, despite it being goofy. We also need to remember that these demons can only exist in the human world through Bayo and her hair (The new Prequel game Cereza and the Lost Demon spoilers, but this is already reaffirmed to us in a cutscene. Nothing we dont know already but if its any confirmation), so the demons are inherently relying on Bayo's power to even exist outside of Inferno, which can explain why they shakily get killed, despite also showing to do damage to actual Low 1-Cs like Jeanne and Singularity.

Madama B probably has the best chance but she’s very clearly shown to be equal to temperentia based on the 1st Balder fight in bayo 2.

Well yeah, but theres good reason to speculate that the Madama Butterflys are all different, given her origins were human AND we see the Bayos from all 3 games use their own version of Madama Butterfly's wicked weaves. Temperantia isnt exactly excluded from the notion of being within the same tier though, despite hwo the whole plot of Bayo 1 was for Jubileus to be the one to merge all 3 worlds (so he shouldnt really be comparable) while he was also relying on Bayo 2 Balder as a conduit who scales to Low 1-C from Bayo 2. Heck, we see Singularity as a whole fight all 3 Bayos, despite all parties there being the same tier.

Ive always been meh about it b4 but idk if its fair with all the evidence we see of these demons actually having at least AP+Speed to compete with everyone else in this verse, and the fact Bayo actively relies on their power, even outside of gameplay

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Agreed that he summons should be upgraded, iirc it was agreed a while back that they should be bare minimum 2-A

 

[Comicgyal]

I agree summons should be upgraded, and they will be, in a different thread that’ll address the general tier 6 rating. Although her summons do get oneshot by some bosses, that isn’t to disprove their possible higher rating, as those bosses just scale above their baseline.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Her summons don’t just get one shot by “some bosses” but, virtually everyone on Bayos level. I don’t agree with scaling characters to a level where everyone there one shots them several times but ig we’ll have this conversation another time. This thread was supposed to be about the weakness section, let’s stay on track.

 

[Jinx666]

Well yeah but Demons are reliant on the witches that summon them to exist, so their connections in that regard could link up to their durability. The demons in themself are still actively used to kill/hurt characters on Bayos level, and heck they've essentially 'one shot' characters like Jeanne too. Even the Kraken was capable of knocking her out. At the very least they couldnt possibly be Tier 6 for this regard, just cause they've been oneshot (Strider boss is somewhat the game difficulty but even then Strider can fight and survive Faerie Viola + Singularity)

But yeah, I deff think the weakness should be stated given it seemed to creep up a lot more in Bayo 3, and i still think it can somewhat sever the contract between demons, which is how Gomorrah released from demon slave and just decided to attack Bayo

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

Before the Cereza&TheLostDemon discussions can we add this? (Spoilers but this comes up somewhat in the game too, the OP that is)