Immeasurable Bayonetta : Speed Revisions

[Comicgyal]

This’ll be a fairly simple CRT before our profile revisions, and major tier upgrades.

All Bayonetta characters who scale will have their base MFTL speed upgraded to Immeasurable.

Immeasurable Speed

As noted by the Hierarchy of Laguna Journal, Paradiso is thousands of times larger than the human world, this 'Human World' is that of World of Chaos, which is an infinitely layered Multiverse.

Paradiso is stated to be thousands of times larger than this— which of course causes issues due to the Human Worlds inherent infinite nature. However this statement was made before Chaos was weakened, and split into a multiverse.

It has caused the erasure of various realms across the Trinity of Realities to unify the realm of chaos — which has been weakened by its splitting into countless fractions — into a single reality.

The previous metric of “thousands” is outdated, thus making the new context that Paradiso is bigger than the infinitely sized, weaker Multiverse of Chaos. Meaning Irenic crossed the entirety of a 4-D space, thus granting it immeasurable speed.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Agree with infinite bare minimum. Neutral on immeasurable for the time being.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I definitely agree

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

I agree.

 

[ZXareo]

Agree. Both seem pretty blatant to me.

 

[Nostredam]

I think that attacking through time would not necessarily mean that said attack is bypassing linear time itself through sheer speed alone, as it could also count as it having Time Travel properties (not for the character, but for its attacks). Nonetheless, Immeasurable Speed in Bayonetta is not a strecthing in my opinion, as Jubileus himself with his perception/viewpoint (which should apply to his Reaction Speed) oversees/transcend all infinite possibilities of space-time, meaning that any given event or action is rendered meaningless as he is surpassing causality as a whole.

Also, I'm a bit confused; is the Infinite Speed feat that of Irenic basically crossing a structure bigger than a infinite multiverse? If so, that's not Infinite Speed, but rather Immeasurable.

 

[Comicgyal]

Also, I'm a bit confused; is the Infinite Speed feat that of Irenic basically crossing a structure bigger than a infinite multiverse? If so, that's not Infinite Speed, but rather Immeasurable.

I’ll reply to everything you mentioned in full —- but where is this line of logic derived form?

 

[Nostredam]

I’ll reply to everything you mentioned in full —- but where is this line of logic derived form?

Crossing the distance of an multiverse equals to crossing the distance between several (or, at least, two) space-time continuous (timelines); which means the character in this case is bypassing the time axis that separates said universes. That is not a distance that can be measured by standard infinite values (like a High 3-A distance), as it is essentialy traveling through four-dimensional space-time itself.

Do note that the distance between timelines (4D structures) is not quantifiable, as what separates said timelines are uncountable infinity measures compared to the three-dimensional notion of distance. Since linear time is defined by a time axis, bypassing it through sheer speed would be equitative of Immeasurable Speed.

 

[ShionAH]

.

Immeasurable Speed

Loptr attacks Loki through time not once, but twice. He’s attacking Loki from 500 years in the past. This gives Loptr and co Immeasurable attack (?) speed and reactions.

You need proof of it happening with sheer speed and not hax

 

[Comicgyal]

Crossing the distance of an multiverse equals to crossing the distance between several (or, at least, two) space-time continuous (timelines); which means the character in this case is bypassing the time axis that separates said universes. That is not a distance that can be measured by standard infinite values (like a High 3-A distance), as it is essentialy traveling through four-dimensional space-time itself.

Do note that the distance between timelines (4D structures) is not quantifiable, as what separates said timelines are uncountable infinity measures compared to the three-dimensional notion of distance. Since linear time is defined by a time axis, bypassing it through sheer speed would be equitative of Immeasurable Speed.

i understand now. I’ll change the thread to rely on this.

 

[Golden_Void]

Agree with 1st point not second

 

[Comicgyal]

I’ve updated the thread. Please re-evaluate.

 

[Bobsican]

Disagree per this, moving in an higher-D space isn't inherent proof of immeasurable speed.

 

[Comicgyal]

From what I was told, being able to freely traverse a temporal dimension (in this example a 4-D multiverse) in all directions grants immeasurable speed.

 

[Nostredam]

Disagree per this, moving in an higher-D space isn't inherent proof of immeasurable speed.

Quoting:

A: No. To put it simply: Although the presence of the additional axis results in a higher-dimensional space being infinitely larger in comparision to a lower-dimensional one, the numerical values themselves remain unchanged, as a "dimension" is nothing more than a continuum of numbers representing a direction of space.

This entire section of the Tiering System FAQ is explaining through higher spatial dimensions that it is not possible achive Immeasurable Speed by being a higher-dimensional being. What is being proposed in this thread, however, is that the character (Irenic) bypasses the temporal axis of an infinite multiverse. It has nothing to do with spatial measures, but rather temporal ones.

 

[Bobsican]

From what I was told, being able to freely traverse a temporal dimension (in this example a 4-D multiverse) in all directions grants immeasurable speed.

I'd appreciate more context, for reference, a character traversing across multiple universes or multiverses (this doesn't even means much on its own as much multiple 2-A structures is still baseline 2-A without further context) isn't immeasurable speed as much that'd just fall as Interdimensional range as mentioned there:

Similarly, moving in a higher-dimensional space also doesn't qualify as Immeasurable speed, and would be more appropriately rated as Interdimensional range

Also gotta quote a bit from the Speed page:

Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

For immeasurable speed on this kind of reasoning, as noted in the TS FAQ, they'd have to freely traverse across a temporal dimension like a spatial one:

They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space. An example of this are the Bulk Beings from Interstellar.

And the proof of this so far is quite lacking.

Quoting:



This entire section of the Tiering System FAQ is explaining through higher spatial dimensions that it is not possible achive Immeasurable Speed by being a higher-dimensional being. What is being proposed in this thread, however, is that the character (Irenic) bypasses the temporal axis of an infinite multiverse. It has nothing to do with spatial measures, but rather temporal ones.

Uh... what part of what the OP even correlates to directly traveling across temporal dimensions (aka, time travel), over mere interdimensional range?

 

[Nostredam]

Uh... what part of what the OP mentions even correlates to directly traveling across temporal dimensions (aka, time travel), over mere interdimensional range?

I don't know where you got the idea of being Time Travel, as the feat that is being talked about emphasizes that Irenic's speed is so great that he can cross a certain place (Paradiso) in less than a day. There is no "interdimensional range" or time travel, straight up speed. Also:

a character traversing across multiple universes or multiverses (this doesn't even means much on its own as much multiple 2-A structures is still baseline 2-A without further context) isn't immeasurable speed

It was already asserted of my part that crossing the distance between a set of timelines (a.k.a multiverse) falls under bypassing the time axis that separates said timelines, which is Immeasurable Speed going by the explanation of post #8.

 

[Bobsican]

I don't know where you got the idea of being Time Travel, as the feat that is being talked about emphasizes that Irenic's speed is so great that he can cross a certain place (Paradiso) in less than a day. There is no "interdimensional range" or time travel, straight up speed. Also:

Sounds more like infinite speed at best, for immeasurable you either need more proof on semantics that'd lead there or basically combat applicable time travel.

It was already asserted of my part that crossing the distance between a set of timelines (a.k.a multiverse) falls under bypassing the time axis that separates said timelines, which is Immeasurable Speed going by the explanation of post #8.

Uh..., nope, as I've quoted in the Speed page, the distance between universes simply isn't usable for speed by the site's standards, and this mere travel would just be rated as interdimensional range anyways.

 

[XVII]

agree with at least infinite speed, neutral on immesurable for now

 

[Nostredam]

Sounds more like infinite speed at best, for immeasurable you eithr need more proof on semantics that'd lead there or basically combat applicable time travel.

Again, it is not Time Travel. The reason on why it's Immeasurable rather than Infinite is because the feat is not only crossing an infinite distance, but also bypassing the time axis that is encompassed by said structure (Paradiso), as it is an infinite multiverse.

Uh..., nope, as I've quoted in the Speed page, the distance between universes simply isn't usable for speed, and this mere travel would just be rated as interdimensional range anyways.

You're ignoring what is said in the exact same sentence:

For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

The details are:

1. It is not based on interdimensional or time travel, but sheer speed.
2. The structure that is being crossed is an infinite multiverse, meaning that the only unquantifiable thing here is the fact that the speed cannot be measured by standard spatial notions, but temporal ones.

Also, why are you linking that as if it is that kind of important? Why don't you directly respond to the arguments presented for bypassing timelines distances being Immeasurable Speed?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't get immeasurable speed justification (it does not even exist in OP as far as I tell), so I completely disagree.

 

[Comicgyal]

I don't get immeasurable speed justification (it does not even exist in OP as far as I tell), so I completely disagree.

If I need to alter the OP I can, but the premise is that Irenic is capable of traveling the entire distance of a realm called Paradiso. This realm is larger than that of a 4-D multiverse, and Irenic can cross its entire distance in a finite amount of time.

As a result of this, Irenic is crossing multiple temporal dimensions through sheer speed, which can qualify for immeasurable as far as I can tell.

It was already asserted of my part that crossing the distance between a set of timelines (a.k.a multiverse) falls under bypassing the time axis that separates said timelines, which is Immeasurable Speed going by the explanation of post #8.

 

[Bobsican]

Again, it is not Time Travel. The reason on why it's Immeasurable rather than Infinite is because the feat is not only crossing an infinite distance, but also bypassing the time axis that is encompassed by said structure (Paradiso), as it is an infinite multiverse.

Then I'd have to extremely disagree with the proposal. This stuff just doesn't qualify for Immeasurable speed, or any speed tier for that matter.

"Bypassing" the time axis encompassing a tier 2 structure just to travel between multiple tier 2 structures just isn't immeasurable speed, it's just interdimensional range.

You're ignoring what is said in the exact same sentence:

Sure, context always matters, but...

The details are:

1. It is not based on interdimensional or time travel, but sheer speed.

It'd still just be rated as interdimensional speed even this way as the distance between universes isn't quantificable (don't assume out of nowhere it's "uncountably infinite", that's not the standard, otherwise any 2-C to 2-A feat would automatically be Low 1-C) for these purposes. Or in other words it's just "Unknown" speed-wise.

2. The structure that is being crossed is an infinite multiverse, meaning that the only unquantifiable thing here is the fact that the speed cannot be measured by standard spatial notions, but temporal ones.

The space between universes is a spatial dimension, not a temporal one, especially as if it was a temporal one, only one universe would exist at a time, which clearly isn't the case here, at best that'd just fall as infinite speed as said before, with this detail in mind.

Also, why are you linking that as if it is that kind of important? Why don't you directly respond to the arguments presented for bypassing timelines distances being Immeasurable Speed?

I have to raise awareness on some site standards to back-up my arguments, especially considering you clearly are a newcomer to the site, please get customized to the policies of this site regarding this stuff. You'd have to change those standards first if you'd want to go differently from them, to avoid double standards and all.

 

[Georredannea15]

This could be infinite speed. But I disagree with immeasurable speed.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If I need to alter the OP I can, but the premise is that Irenic is capable of traveling the entire distance of a realm called Paradiso. This realm is larger than that of a 4-D multiverse, and Irenic can cross its entire distance in a finite amount of time.

As a result of this, Irenic is crossing multiple temporal dimensions through sheer speed, which can qualify for immeasurable as far as I can tell

I disagree then. I don't see it sufficient, alone the fact that multiple temporal dimensions is simply false and came from an illogical assumption

 

[Comicgyal]

If immeasurable speed with this Is disagreed upon, I’m completely fine with it being infinite.

 

[ZXareo]

If immeasurable speed with this Is disagreed upon, I’m completely fine with it being infinite.

I still agree with Infinite. Arguements for Immeasurable are valid, so unless a conclusion comes to whether crossing Paradiso would qualify for Immeasurable, I'm going to disagree.

Though, in terms of Immeasurable, is there anything to note about how Loading Screens are somewhat canon now with the empty loading spaces taking place in Ginnungagap? And that Tag Climax has a unique Loading Screen depicting travelling through time by running?

 

[Comicgyal]

Ah right, almost forgotten. When it comes to those things I’ll address it in another CRT, since I’d have to re-edit this thread once again (which is a hassle) For now, changing their base speed of MFTL to infinite seems to be agreed upon.

 

[Nostredam]

Then I'd have to extremely disagree with the proposal. This stuff just doesn't qualify for Immeasurable speed, or any speed tier for that matter.

"Bypassing" the time axis encompassing a tier 2 structure just to travel between multiple tier 2 structures just isn't immeasurable speed, it's just interdimensional range.

Don't know the necessity of repeating what was already contested. Traveling between a Tier 2 structure cannot be considered interdimensional range in this case because the character that can perform said feat is described as doing so by his speed alone:

"Faster than even the wind, it can cross Paradiso, thousands of times larger than the human world, in nary a single day.

If we follow the exact logic you're presenting, then any character with a feat of traveling beyond linear time with sheer speed wouldn't have a Immeasurable Speed ranting since this would be simply Time Travel.

It'd still just be rated as interdimensional speed even this way as the distance between universes isn't quantificable (don't assume out of nowhere it's "uncountably infinite", that's not the standard, otherwise any 2-C to 2-A feat would automatically be Low 1-C) for this purposes. Or in other words it's just "Unknown" speed-wise.

Uh, I think you are getting things pretty much misinterpreted with that sentence. I agree with you that the distance between universes isn't quantificable, but that's the very reason I'm arguing being Immeasurable Speed, rather than Unknown; because the distance between Tier 2 structures (timelines) is not quantificable by using three-dimensional notions of space, or rather, any notion of space at all. The feat involves crossing the time dimension, not a spatial dimension. We know that any Speed tier up to Infinite is based on crossing space/distance, but in the Immeasurable ranting it is based on crossing time beyond its linear succession, which is what the feat of Irenic is (transversing a time axis).

I would also like to mention that the Tiering System FAQ says this:

Similarly, moving in a higher-dimensional space also doesn't qualify as Immeasurable speed, and would be more appropriately rated as Interdimensional range

What you are arguing to be the case on Irenic's feat applies to higher-dimensional spaces, which was never brought on this thread in the first place and in post #15 I clarify that. As for that:

(don't assume out of nowhere it's "uncountably infinite", that's not the standard, otherwise any 2-C to 2-A feat would automatically be Low 1-C)

Uncountable infinity is not Low 1-C in the case that I am presenting. A Low 2-C structure is uncountably infinitely above a 3-A one the same way a Low 1-C structure is above a Low 2-C one. Please note that the Tiering System of this wiki is based on higher dimensions that can be potrayed to uncountable infinites in contrast to lower dimensions, like a Reality > Fiction interaction, starting with 4D ranting itself:

Low 2-C: Universe level+​

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction.

While the B example seems to be talking about a higher dimension of space, the purpose on this thread is to talk about that Irenic's feat correlates with a temporal dimension (after all, the thread is about speed, not power).

The space between universes is a spatial dimension, not a temporal one, especially as if it was a temporal one, only one universe would exist at a time, which clearly isn't the case here, at best that'd just fall as infinite speed as said before, with this detail in mind.

The space between timelines is separated by time and space (space-time), as a set of parallel universes posseses their own space-time continuum. That why crossing it cannot be applied by standard measures of three-dimensional space, due to a time dimension being present in the equation.

I have to raise awareness on some site standards to back-up my arguments, especially considering you clearly are a newcomer to the site, please get customized to the policies of this site regarding this stuff.

True, but you should also explain by your own reasoning with a certain thing is not valid, besides quoting pages that, while useful, are pretty much subjected to be edited in the future if someone decides to make a CRT regarding, for example, the Speed page.

 

[Nostredam]

Also:

If immeasurable speed with this Is disagreed upon, I’m completely fine with it being infinite.

Pretty much this thread is revolving around a single user (me) arguing for a ranting that the OP itself has no problem with it being wrong. For that, I'll stop here. The rest of the users can make their research about the arguments, but for now, I'm only willing to continue if "Bobsican" is also willing to continue his discussion with me.

 

[Comicgyal]

I will admit that I am not the most knowledgeable on the subject currently being argued. But I’m willing to bear witness to both arguments, and let staff evaluate afterwards. I concede with infinite only if a conclusion for immeasurable cannot be reached.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure about this, Bobsican is technically right about the statement in the FAQ, although she has been granted Immeasurable for other reasons though I remember showing skepticism for that. But the Irenic feat would inherently be Infinite at least. And I don't think I have heard of an Infinite speed character with time travel. Characters usually get Immeasurable if they can travel through time at will combined with having feats where Infinite sounds minimum.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, Bayonetta still has immeasurable speed from other things. I was just told by two others that the OP was actually immeasurable instead of infinite, and changed it.

 

[Nostredam]

Bayonetta should still have Immeasurable Combat & Reaction Speed for tagging Jubileus in combat, who in the post #6 is argued to have that speed.

 

[Comicgyal]

Aesir, you mean?

 

[Nostredam]

Yeah, idk why I confused the two. Bayonetta's villains always seemed the exact same for me.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm not sure about this, Bobsican is technically right about the statement in the FAQ, although she has been granted Immeasurable for other reasons though I remember showing skepticism for that. But the Irenic feat would inherently be Infinite at least. And I don't think I have heard of an Infinite speed character with time travel. Characters usually get Immeasurable if they can travel through time at will combined with having feats where Infinite sounds minimum.

If infinite is fine, and everyone else agrees it to be good as a base, can this be closed? Irenics infinite is straight forward, so I doubt we need any further evaluation.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah, idk why I confused the two. Bayonetta's villains always seemed the exact same for me.

I understand. I’ll be making another thread purely for immeasurable arguments, so we can save that for next time.

 

[Bobsican]

I'd wait for more staff approval TBH

 

[ImmortalDread]

I understand. I’ll be making another thread purely for immeasurable arguments, so we can save that for next time.

I would like to also be present in your thread.
If you don't mind, can you notify me in my wall once you created it?