Transdual Bayonetta

[Comicgyal]

You don’t have to think that she can beat aesir/Loptr in a fight, but to imply that she’s weaker than Loptr from 500 years in the past, who would be drastically weaker than his current forms that she can keep pace with is a bit disingenuous. Regardless of their back and forth, she’s shown that can atleast react and fight against him.

Also the blast he used on Loki isn’t anything special, just a normal attack of his. I don’t think he’s reserving an immeasurable attack speed attack for the sole purpose of blasting Loki away every now and then, when he has fights with the much stronger Bayonetta that he’s actively trying to subdue.

 

[Theglassman12]

It’s not really disingenuous when we literally see Loptr in the past knock her out easily in the cutscene. Plus that specific instance with Loki is Loptr attacking through time. Not his other stuff which doesn’t have similar showcases.

 

[Comicgyal]

It’s not really disingenuous when we literally see Loptr in the past knock her out easily in the cutscene. Plus that specific instance with Loki is Loptr attacking through time. Not his other stuff which doesn’t have similar showcases.

That’s only after they have a pretty long back and forth, and he can only knock her away and run from the confrontation. Also there doesn’t need to be any similar instances, as long as its established that he can attack through time (fairly evident since he’s said to transcend it, and his power is said to as well)

 

[Theglassman12]

He attacked through time with the remembrance of time stuff that was happening in 2. Unless he can utilize that normally i don’t see why this would scale to any of the normal boss fights.

 

[Comicgyal]

He can, as the remembrance are in his base arsenal. It’s not like he needs a remembrance to attack through time, he just used the remembrance to attack Loki as he was currently viewing his past self, and Aesir is exists beyond time so past, present, and future are all the same to him.

But even if he was only capable of doing that attack with a remembrance, Bayonetta scales above Loki drastically, and fought Loptr and Aesir two times. So she’d scale anyways.

 

[Theglassman12]

Being beyond time isn’t enough for immeasurable speed anymore. Plus the remembrance is the only form of immeasurable attack speed he’s shown, none of his other attacks remotely show the same behavior.

I’m still not seeing Loki react to Loptr’s attacks so at best I’m seeing Loptr himself scale to this speed.

 

[Comicgyal]

Being beyond time isn’t enough for immeasurable speed anymore. Plus the remembrance is the only form of immeasurable attack speed he’s shown, none of his other attacks remotely show the same behavior.

I’m still not seeing Loki react to Loptr’s attacks so at best I’m seeing Loptr himself scale to this speed.

I’m saying that his statements back up his showing. Aesir states that his power is beyond time, and we see that he can attack through time with his remembrance feat.

Also Loki does shield himself, which wouldn’t be possible if he was being blitzed. It’s also unlikely that his other, stronger attacks don’t scale to this speed. Because if he had an attack that could blitz Bayonetta, they wouldn’t be having back and forths.

 

[Theglassman12]

yes, his remembrance feat is where the immeasurable stuff scales from. Not the normal stuff he does during the fights he’s in which last time I checked doesn’t utilize remembrance all that much, so this scaling to Bayo is very alongside the fact that Bayo is hardly comparable to Loptr’s weakest form.

He gets hit though, nothing implied he was able to react to the attack coming. Normally that would be the case for speed, but if it’s done through a specific move that’s very unique in its mechanics then we don’t automatically scale it to all other moves unless specified the same mechanic applies to the rest of Loptr’s moveset.

 

[Comicgyal]

If an attack was being directed at you, and you managed to raise your hands in defense before being hit, you definitely reacted to it even if slightly.


Also that’s the thing, nothing to really imply that it’s a special move. It’s just a blue ball of energy, which looks very similar to the attacks he uses against her in the Loptr fight on the clock. Also Aesirs attack here looks like the same thing but bigger, which is because he’s stronger than his past self.

Bayonetta also is more than comparable, if not stronger than Loptrs past self. Since she fights his present selves, which have 500+ years of evil energy amps + double eye amps at the end of the game.

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not how reaction works, if you fail to properly block it, let alone dodge that means the attack caught you by complete surprise and you didn’t react to it.

The cracked visions through time in 2 implies it’s a special move because he has to make literal distortions across time and attack through said distortions for it to work. This isn’t any other normal attack Loptr does he specifically uses those cracks to attack through time.

If she was stronger than Loptr’s past self then she wouldn’t have been knocked out by him.

 

[Comicgyal]

That’s not how reaction works, if you fail to properly block it, let alone dodge that means the attack caught you by complete surprise and you didn’t react to it.

The cracked visions through time in 2 implies it’s a special move because he has to make literal distortions across time and attack through said distortions for it to work. This isn’t any other normal attack Loptr does he specifically uses those cracks to attack through time.

If she was stronger than Loptr’s past self then she wouldn’t have been knocked out by him.

But he properly blocked it? The first time it hit him, Loki was completely blown back and fell off the bridge. The second time he blocked it and countered, despite the attack still hitting him, which means he reacted.

The cracked visions are a result of Loki using his power, not Loptr. Loptr is simply attacking Loki through the vision into the past that he’s seeing, because Loptr is temporally aware. It’s not like Loptr made the distortion, and then attacked him through it.

Not really true? He didn’t knock her out, he threw her into a wall and then fled. I think the fact that he ran, despite saying that he wanted to kill her at the start of their fight proves that he isn’t much stronger than her.

 

[Theglassman12]

Which clip are you talking about? Because I’ve only seen the one where Loki got hit.

So this is something Aesir at his prime can do, not Loptr normally. Then that just makes me more convinced to see this only scale to Aesir at his prime.

did you see the following scene with Bayonetta where she woke up from the fight with a headache? She was knocked out, and was a distraction to him as he was after her mother. If he wasn’t that much stronger than her then why the hell was she knocked out? It’s either one of two things, Loptr is stronger than Bayonetta or the building actually knocked her out, and I don’t think I need to explain why the former doesn’t look good for Bayo.

 

[Comicgyal]

Which clip are you talking about? Because I’ve only seen the one where Loki got hit.

This one is where he gets hit and is sent flying, Bayonetta does look his way as he gets hit, but it’s hard to see with the slideshow style. The second time he can put his hands up and throw a card back, not at all similar to the first instance. Also Bayonetta herself is not at all taken aback by what’s happening, so suffice to say that she’s also reacting to it / can perceive the attack.

So this is something Aesir at his prime can do, not Loptr normally. Then that just makes me more convinced to see this only scale to Aesir at his prime.

Uh.. no? We don’t see prime aesir in the story. Loptr 500 years in the past accomplished the immeasurable attack speed feat, and that’s him after having his soul split and losing his original power. He’s so much weaker than his present selves.

did you see the following scene with Bayonetta where she woke up from the fight with a headache? She was knocked out, and was a distraction to him as he was after her mother. If he wasn’t that much stronger than her then why the hell was she knocked out? It’s either one of two things, Loptr is stronger than Bayonetta or the building actually knocked her out, and I don’t think I need to explain why the former doesn’t look good for Bayo.

As much I hate to say it, that entire building scene is pretty much just PIS. There’s no reason why a building knocked her down (not a physical hit from Loptr himself) When just a few seconds prior her madama knocked out a much larger meteor, and we know for certain Bayonetta is stronger than her summons. It’s just a weird moment, that shouldn’t amount to anything but a cheap shot, and not that Loptr is genuinely stronger than her. Because again, he ran away.

 

[Theglassman12]

Both of those clips he’s hit by Loptr, neither of those shows Loki reacting to the attack. Bayonetta not being surprised doesn’t really mean she’s able to react to it, if she’s able to react to it she would’ve got Loki out of the way either times which she doesn’t.

You said that the remembrance happens with Loki’s power and it’s done alongside Loptr’s doing, Loki is part of Aesir’s power so him at his prime would be able to do this, him not showing up in the story doesn’t mean much when the lore states he’s a combination of the eyes, Loki and Loptr, the latter two being the cause of the immeasurable speed feat.

If Loptr in the past wasn’t stronger than her then the only reason why she got knocked out is because of the building, it only makes sense when you take into consideration that Loptr is just stronger by default, something Bayo 2 makes very clear.

 

[Comicgyal]

Both of those clips he’s hit by Loptr, neither of those shows Loki reacting to the attack. Bayonetta not being surprised doesn’t really mean she’s able to react to it, if she’s able to react to it she would’ve got Loki out of the way either times which she doesn’t.

Not entirely true, Bayonetta shows that she’s unaware of what the Remembrances even are at the very beginning of the game. She may have likened it to an illusion, which is why she didn’t immediately act. If she turned to face him as the attack came out, she acknowledged that it was flying towards him, therefore reacting to it. Even if she didn’t move for whatever reason.

You said that the remembrance happens with Loki’s power and it’s done alongside Loptr’s doing, Loki is part of Aesir’s power so him at his prime would be able to do this, him not showing up in the story doesn’t mean much when the lore states he’s a combination of the eyes, Loki and Loptr, the latter two being the cause of the immeasurable speed feat.

The remembrances are Aesirs observations of the human world, and with Loki and Loptr both being him, they can both access them. Aesir at his prime could also do it yeah, but that’s not too relevant since we’re discussing his much weaker versions.

If Loptr in the past wasn’t stronger than her then the only reason why she got knocked out is because of the building, it only makes sense when you take into consideration that Loptr is just stronger by default, something Bayo 2 makes very clear.

If we take what happened to her at the tower, and what happens to her in her fight with aesir there’s a very clear difference. She for some reason is knocked out by a building, but can somewhat stand after two laser blasts + a mind hax three piece combo when fighting aesir in the present. The present versions of aesir/Loptr are definitely very strong, but the way the past version beat her is nonsensical, and doesn’t line up with her feats.

If he sucker punched her in the head I’d understand, but knocking her out with a building is just PIS.

 

[Theglassman12]

That just proves my point that she doesn’t react to the attack though if she didn’t react to it at all.

Yeah but the problem is the feat is done by the remembrance done by Loki mixed with the attack from Loptr in another point in time. That’s not something either characters can do on their own unless their powers merged together to become the original Aesir.

It does line up when we see Loptr beat Bayo every time they’ve fought. Also he did sucker punch her, and then followed up with the tower to the face, this isn’t that nonsensical, it’s just Bayo’s not on Loptr’s level even at his weakest.

 

[Comicgyal]

That just proves my point that she doesn’t react to the attack though if she didn’t react to it at all.

I’m saying she is reacting to it, she’s just not moving Loki out of the way, which isn’t really her job?

Yeah but the problem is the feat is done by the remembrance done by Loki mixed with the attack from Loptr in another point in time. That’s not something either characters can do on their own unless their powers merged together to become the original Aesir.

That’s fine, I never said it was something they could do on their own. But Loptr did the attack speed feat, and that scales to all of his selves, especially aesir.

It does line up when we see Loptr beat Bayo every time they’ve fought. Also he did sucker punch her, and then followed up with the tower to the face, this isn’t that nonsensical, it’s just Bayo’s not on Loptr’s level even at his weakest.

It is nonsensical, because his sucker punch didn’t knock her out, him throwing the building at her did. Also if you think she can’t keep up with him at his weakest, you’re ignoring all of their other fights. She can rank multiple attacks from prophet who’s much stronger than that Loptr, she then fights against double eyed aesir who’s quite literally infinitely more power than his previous forms.

 

[Theglassman12]

Where did she react to it? She doesn't move out of the way, move Loki out of the way, or anything that would've let her perceive the attack.

He did it with Loki's help, it's not something he can do normally unless he's back to Aesir's full power.

Yes, him throwing the building, AKA he's putting in the strength to attack her with the object. It's still him doing the work and not gravity that knocked her out. The other fights literally ends with Loptr slapping Bayonetta around and mocking her for her lack of strength to fight back.

 

[Comicgyal]

Where did she react to it? She doesn't move out of the way, move Loki out of the way, or anything that would've let her perceive the attack.

In the first instance it happens, you see her stance change, and she’s looking at Loki as he gets blasted, implying that she reacted to it happening.

He did it with Loki's help, it's not something he can do normally unless he's back to Aesir's full power.

I mean, sorta? The point is that he’s capable of doing it while weakened. The remembrances aren’t like portals, they’re snapshots of the past. Since Loptr is temporally aware he could acknowledge that he was being watched, and then attack Loki in that moment. So he can attack through time without Lokis help, but that’s just the way it happened.

Yes, him throwing the building, AKA he's putting in the strength to attack her with the object. It's still him doing the work and not gravity that knocked her out. The other fights literally ends with Loptr slapping Bayonetta around and mocking her for her lack of strength to fight back.

But again, the meteor that she destroyed prior to the building. He threw that at her too. Also I acknowledge that she doesn’t do too well until her fight at the end with aesir, but it’s the fact that she fights that much stronger aesir and eventually wins that matters.

 

[Theglassman12]

That doesn't really tell me she reacted to an attack through time though, that just sounds like she reacted to Loki getting folded.

I know they're not portals, my point is the remembrance crack is only possible with Loki, Loptr can't do it by himself. If he had both Loptr and Loki's powers and became the original Aesir he'd be able to do this easily.

She doesn't fight a stronger aesir and eventually win, she got bodied by Loptr with one eye, and Loki had to erase his powers to the point of him being super nerfed enough so Bayonetta and Balder can kick his ass.

 

[Comicgyal]

That doesn't really tell me she reacted to an attack through time though, that just sounds like she reacted to Loki getting folded.

She does look at him in the same moment that it happens, but due to the nature of the cutscenes I won’t bother pushing the argument.

I know they're not portals, my point is the remembrance crack is only possible with Loki, Loptr can't do it by himself. If he had both Loptr and Loki's powers and became the original Aesir he'd be able to do this easily.

Yeah I can agree with that then.

She doesn't fight a stronger aesir and eventually win, she got bodied by Loptr with one eye, and Loki had to erase his powers to the point of him being super nerfed enough so Bayonetta and Balder can kick his ass.

Although he lost both eyes, that aesir is still stronger than young loptr.

 

[Theglassman12]

I don't know if I'd buy him being stronger than young loptr given both Bayo and Baldur was slapping him around in the end, plus the nerf ****** over Loptr big time.

But yeah, summarizing this up, I'm fine with immeasurable attack speed for Aesir at his prime. Still not sure about transduality and I'm fine with type 4 Acausality for beings older than Irenic.

 

[Comicgyal]

Gotcha. Do you mind tagging more staff for evaluation of the transduality and Acausality bits? I don’t really care who. If not I’ll just get some later.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Lonkitt @Planck69 @Elizhaa Any input for this thread would be appreciated.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Imo no matter what interpretation,it still scales to Aesir with both eyes and his prime selves before split

Gotcha. Do you mind tagging more staff for evaluation of the transduality and Acausality bits? I don’t really care who. If not I’ll just get some later.

 

[Comicgyal]

Bump

 

[Asdtgh]

glassman12 makes a somewhat good point about immeasurable attack speed for prime Aesir, but you can try to assume this can be applied to Loptr gaining both Sovereign and Prophet powers, Sovereign having control of the RoTs anyway. Still, I also agree that the RoTs are still somewhat acting like portals between the two time periods for those two instances to happen anyways. Especially since Loki does manipulate them in a way where one time, he ports himself and Bayonetta to a different moment in time when a part of Noatun wasn't in ruins and is currently so in Chapter 2. Similar case with the Umbra Memorial pieces, and the tsunami that supposedly happened a long time ago. And I'm very sure I don't need to remind everyone about the pole dancing feat of time reversal manipulation.

Anyways, it's through this, plus the fact that he keeps having episodes of losing control and allowing RoTs to involuntarily appear, young Loptr may have taken advantage of his involuntary RoTs and attack Loki during those two moments.

And here is him losing control of his powers and accidentally sending both Baldur and Bayo to the past. So really, it's pretty much time travel portal shenanigans.

If you really want immeasurable speed, I was wondering if Doomguy's feats of immeasurable speed via Maykr wings flying through creation can be applied for this and why this hasn't happened yet. Irenic did travel across Paradiso, which is 1000 times larger than the Human World, latter consisting of numerous or even possibly infinite timelines.

Speaking of Irenic, Angels of Paradiso are still treated as MFTL+ for First Spheres. And the description of Jubileus "massively upscales Irenic" doesn't sit right with me since Irenic is using First Spheres levels of spiritual energy to move that fast, judging from its 4 First Sphere halo wheels. Maybe we can stick with "upscales First Spheres"?

Acausality seems ok.

Same for Transduality, I guess (not really too knowledgeable on this). But it's the "Loptr calling human free will as an illusion/joke" screenshot that's not really needed. Loptr just wanted to regain control over the human world and rule over the humans as a goal, supported by the second screenshot. So, this view of Loptr seemed more like an objective driven statement rather than an actual feat. What you only need is the last one that goes right to the point that "his will shall become that of the universe".

 

[Comicgyal]

So from what I can gather, you don’t disagree with anything?

 

[Asdtgh]

With the different reasoning and supporting evidence for immeasurable speed, pretty much yes

 

[TokiNoOuja]

glassman12 makes a somewhat good point about immeasurable attack speed for prime Aesir, but you can try to assume this can be applied to Loptr gaining both Sovereign and Prophet powers, Sovereign having control of the RoTs anyway. Still, I also agree that the RoTs are still somewhat acting like portals between the two time periods for those two instances to happen anyways. Especially since Loki does manipulate them in a way where one time, he ports himself and Bayonetta to a different moment in time when a part of Noatun wasn't in ruins and is currently so in Chapter 2. Similar case with the Umbra Memorial pieces, and the tsunami that supposedly happened a long time ago. And I'm very sure I don't need to remind everyone about the pole dancing feat of time reversal manipulation.

Anyways, it's through this, plus the fact that he keeps having episodes of losing control and allowing RoTs to involuntarily appear, young Loptr may have taken advantage of his involuntary RoTs and attack Loki during those two moments.

And here is him losing control of his powers and accidentally sending both Baldur and Bayo to the past. So really, it's pretty much time travel portal shenanigans.

If you really want immeasurable speed, I was wondering if Doomguy's feats of immeasurable speed via Maykr wings flying through creation can be applied for this and why this hasn't happened yet. Irenic did travel across Paradiso, which is 1000 times larger than the Human World, latter consisting of numerous or even possibly infinite timelines.

Speaking of Irenic, Angels of Paradiso are still treated as MFTL+ for First Spheres. And the description of Jubileus "massively upscales Irenic" doesn't sit right with me since Irenic is using First Spheres levels of spiritual energy to move that fast, judging from its 4 First Sphere halo wheels. Maybe we can stick with "upscales First Spheres"?

Acausality seems ok.

Same for Transduality, I guess (not really too knowledgeable on this). But it's the "Loptr calling human free will as an illusion/joke" screenshot that's not really needed. Loptr just wanted to regain control over the human world and rule over the humans as a goal, supported by the second screenshot. So, this view of Loptr seemed more like an objective driven statement rather than an actual feat. What you only need is the last one that goes right to the point that "his will shall become that of the universe".

Hmm so basicly Travelling a structure that bigger than 2-A grant you Immeasurable Speed?

Also about DOOM part,the Makyr traverse Creation was threated as Infinite speed and recently turn into Immeasurable because a direct Statement about Makyr also travelling though time too not the just infinite spaces

 

[Asdtgh]

Hmm so basicly Travelling a structure that bigger than 2-A grant you Immeasurable Speed?

Also about DOOM part,the Makyr traverse Creation was threated as Infinite speed and recently turn into Immeasurable because a direct Statement about Makyr also travelling though time too not the just infinite spaces

Ahh, so that's what gave DOOM the exception. If that were the case, I don't remember anything about Bayoverse having speed feats blitzing time itself. And I've already disagreed with using RoTs as an argument, so I'll change my mind to disagreeing with Immeasurable speed unless a Bayonetta character is supported with evidence of traversing beyond time. Which I don't recall for the time being

 

[Comicgyal]

Hmm so basicly Travelling a structure that bigger than 2-A grant you Immeasurable Speed?

No.

 

[Comicgyal]

Anyways you’re confusing remembrances and Lokis powers. Loki doesn’t use remembrances as portals.

, he ports himself and Bayonetta to a different moment in time when a part of Noatun wasn't in ruins and is currently so in Chapter 2.

He doesn’t port them to different moment in time here, he uses his restoration ability to fix the area they’re in after viewing it through a remembrance. Same thing with the tsunami. he can summon the memory of it that aesir once had.

Loptr is attacking Loki through remembrances yeah, but they’re not portals you can walk through. Also Loki sending bayo and balder back in time has nothing to do with remembrances. He also didn’t use a portal to do that either, so unsure of your point there.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Anyways you’re confusing remembrances and Lokis powers. Loki doesn’t use remembrances as portals.

He doesn’t port them to different moment in time here, he uses his restoration ability to fix the area they’re in after viewing it through a remembrance. Same thing with the tsunami. he can summon the memory of it that aesir once had.

Loptr is attacking Loki through remembrances yeah, but they’re not portals you can walk through. Also Loki sending bayo and balder back in time has nothing to do with remembrances. He also didn’t use a portal to do that either, so unsure of your point there.

Cant we just use the Tag Climax as supporting evidence?since we could see their visually traverse though time and its heavily related to Loki's time card,which means thats how the they could slip though era (outside the portal and teleport stuff)

 

[ZXareo]

Cant we just use the Tag Climax as supporting evidence?since we could see their visually traverse though time and its heavily related to Loki's time card,which means thats how the they could slip though era (outside the portal and teleport stuff)

From what I recall, there been some contention against using Tag Climax since it's a non-canon Co-op game-mode, even with the whole 'Loading screens are Ginnungagap making loading screens canon' business.
...which is sad since it's kinda a literal visual representation of immeasurable speed haha

 

[TokiNoOuja]

From what I recall, there been some contention against using Tag Climax since it's a non-canon Co-op game-mode, even with the whole 'Loading screens are Ginnungagap making loading screens canon' business.
...which is sad since it's kinda a literal visual representation of immeasurable speed haha

But before in an old thread it was accepted due to the fact that Muspelheim description in Tag Climax is the same with the game lore

 

[Asdtgh]

Anyways you’re confusing remembrances and Lokis powers. Loki doesn’t use remembrances as portals.

He doesn’t port them to different moment in time here, he uses his restoration ability to fix the area they’re in after viewing it through a remembrance. Same thing with the tsunami. he can summon the memory of it that aesir once had.

Loptr is attacking Loki through remembrances yeah, but they’re not portals you can walk through. Also Loki sending bayo and balder back in time has nothing to do with remembrances. He also didn’t use a portal to do that either, so unsure of your point there.

I'm saying they act like portals. Maybe not exactly portals but they are still basically time manipulation. Plus, most of the times we've seen Loki's powers are always surrounding the idea of using RoTs considering that Aesir's signature ability via his eyes are those visions/memories of the Human World's past, present and future.

Either or, Loptr still takes advantage of these RoTs to attack Loki so it's very unlikely it is through purely speed his attacks could reach from the past to the present. If anything, that makes it sound much slower when one of the cases of immeasurable speed should be attacks/characters going backwards in time rather than how we normally perceive time as always moving forward.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm saying they act like portals. Maybe not exactly portals but they are still basically time manipulation. Plus, most of the times we've seen Loki's powers are always surrounding the idea of using RoTs considering that Aesir's signature ability via his eyes are those visions/memories of the Human World's past, present and future.

I mean, yeah, remembrances are just Aesirs memories of the past placed around. It is a form of time manipulation, but that doesn’t affect Loptrs feat.

Either or, Loptr still takes advantage of these RoTs to attack Loki so it's very unlikely it is through purely speed his attacks could reach from the past to the present. If anything, that makes it sound much slower when one of the cases of immeasurable speed should be attacks/characters going backwards in time rather than how we normally perceive time as always moving forward.

Backwards of forwards doesn’t matter, attacking someone from 500 years in the past, in the present, is of the same effect of attacking someone 500 years in the past from the present. Loptr doesn’t activate a remembrance to attack Loki; it’s due to Loki viewing the past, that Loptr uses that opportunity to attack Loki. There’s really no hax from Loptr at play, since he doesn’t activate the memory, Loki does.

 

[Asdtgh]

I mean, yeah, remembrances are just Aesirs memories of the past placed around.

And it's what Loki would use to even restore Noatun's places back to its glory and bring back the old tsunami in the first place, along with other instances. Either by throwing his card at the RoT he conjured or exploding out an energy wave. Same way as how he would do it with the time reversing pole dancing device, or this flight of stairs and this gravity redirecting device thingy.

And, on some level, this RoT manipulation should be applied to those wielding the separate powers of Aesir. If Bayonetta with just the LEoD can still see the pieces of an Umbra Witch's Memorial Place and control them thanks to the RoTs still being visible, so should the Prophet Loptr.

It is a form of time manipulation, but that doesn’t affect Loptrs feat.

And no, I think it does. With the reasoning above here, Loptr could possibly be using time hax to attack Loki in similar fashion as Loki's restoration of past construction.

Backwards of forwards doesn’t matter, attacking someone from 500 years in the past, in the present, is of the same effect of attacking someone 500 years in the past from the present. Loptr doesn’t activate a remembrance to attack Loki; it’s due to Loki viewing the past, that Loptr uses that opportunity to attack Loki. There’s really no hax from Loptr at play, since he doesn’t activate the memory, Loki does.

It should matter. Cause from what we see of Loptr's attack on Loki, the case here is not

Character A being in the present attacking Character B from 500 years in the past (Which is immeasurable if done purely through speed without any use of hax)

since it is just

Character A from 500 years in the past attacking Character B in the future present (Which really isn't immeasurable). An attack acting in the same direction of how linear time should flow. Not going the opposite direction.

Your comparison changes nothing cause you're technically saying the exact same requirement this "feat" needs with a tiny bit of rephrasing. In fact, this is a really weird sentence I'm reading here.

One way for Loptr's attacks to be possibly credible for immeasurable speed is if we treat it as being able to move fast enough to just "skip past a time period" from past to future present instantaneously. And through pure speed only.

And even if that were the case, and even if Loptr didn't activate the RoT, he is still using the ones Loki made against himself to try and harm his other half. Especially if Loki can activate such past restoration by throwing his cards at the RoTs as though they are tangible objects. What makes it an exception that Loptr can't do something similar and backfire it on Loki?

Really, the fact that the two instances of Loptr firing a projectile into the present involves the RoTs should speak for itself, these are time hax/manipulation supported sucker punches Loptr is going for.

 

[ZXareo]

Bump