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Minamoto no Raikou vs Charon

So wait was the match changed so she just has everything 8-D now lol
 
Mr._Bambu said:
So wait was the match changed so she just has everything 8-D now lol
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It was changed that they had prior knowledge (I think) and that she's in a stronger second key that bypasses all of Charon's powers with smurf stuff.

So either she gets teleported to the Far Realm or Charon gets haxed to death.
 
Can she even hax the other versions of him though? Neither range nor access to dimensional travel implies this. I get that you're arguing incon, and while I dislike the habit of people to just start changing things so one's enemy is suddenly 8-D (supposedly), does it effectively change anything here?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Can she even hax the other versions of him though?
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Going by SBA they would try to fight her:
State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.

Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.
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Charon not attacking her for a long period of time would also result in a loss for him. But like I said its either she haxes Charon to death or gets teleported to the Far Realm.
 
Eh.

I think it is more likely Charon gets a chance to just oof her than she kills all of Charon's iterations and ceases his coming back, but at this point I suspect OP is pushing for an incon and I don't like debating weebshit.

Incon for me.
 
TrueKingOfHeroes said:
What's Charon's wincon if BFR is useless?
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Is she doesn't get teleported to the Far Realm he has no wincon that would account for her skill and immortality negation powers. Charon has five shots with it technically I guess, which is why there's still a greater chance he wins than loses. But is she can resist the Far Realm portal then she'll eventually win.
 
Unless we're suddenly breaking out 1-A resistances that shouldn't be the case. I don't think anything in Fate even goes that high.
 
I honestly don't think BFR itself is one of those hax affected by dimensionality (talked about that in the past and generally speaking people seemed to agree that is a hax that don't get a higher potency with dimensionality, just that it have a higher range), but well, if is really more powerful depending of dimensionality then yes Raikou would be unable to resist something with a 1-A potency.
 
I have never heard that once but I don't think it matters either way, aye?

Either

It isn't dimensional based -> She gets sent anyways since her higher-D resistances don't mean anything
It is dimensional based -> She gets sent anyways since the Far Realm is 1-A

In either scenario she eats shit to BFR. Charon has 5 chances to do it.
 
I mean, in case is not dimensionality based it would mean that she isn't send to the Far Realm since she resist bfr. But well, since it seems like there is no 100% agreement in the wiki in general about scaling BFR potency to dimensionality then I guess either thing could be possible.

As a side note, personally I don't know what to vote so that's why I still haven't voted.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
mean that she isn't send to the Far Realm since she resist bfr.
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Yes and no. Basically every power in featured on the wiki is also featured in D&D in some capacity and everyone in the franchise has resistance to it, which would include teleportation. Charon would have multiple layers of teleportation resistance negation since he can overcome the passive resistance of weaker people who would be able to resist that spell being used on them.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Yes and no. Basically every power in featured on the wiki is also featured in D&D in some capacity and everyone in the franchise has resistance to it, which would include teleportation. Charon would have multiple layers of teleportation resistance negation since he can overcome the passive resistance of weaker people who would be able to resist that spell being used on them.
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You talk as if the same don't happen with Fate and servants.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
You talk as if the same don't happen with Fate and servants.
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No I get that, I'm just saying that her having resistance to BFR doesn't mean all that much, as Charon has an equally large or greater scaling chain of overcoming that resistance.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
No I get that, I'm just saying that her having resistance to BFR doesn't mean all that much, as Charon has an equally large or greater scaling chain of overcoming that resistance.
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I mean, don't know why is supposed to be even greater than servants (in this case Raikou specifically speaking) scaling chain.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
I mean, don't know why is supposed to be even greater than servants (in this case Raikou specifically speaking) scaling chain.
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What her scaling chain? Charon's chain is that his automatic spell level is equal to 22 when 9 or so is the baseline resistance to teleportation. While not 1:1 for layered resistance, he's to the point where he would overpower a three to six deep resistance chain consistently.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
What her scaling chain? Charon's chain is that his automatic spell level is equal to 22 when 9 or so is the baseline resistance to teleportation. While not 1:1 for layered resistance, he's to the point where he would overpower a three to six deep resistance chain consistently.
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Raikou's got a little bit more than Six like I said even Shirou a Magus with Non-Existent Magic Circuits possesses baseline 4-D resistances and the strength of your Magic circuits directly corresponds to your ability to resist the effects of Magecraft and the like

Shirou<<Shinji<<Waver<<Kiritsugu<<Kotomine<<Archibald<<Tokiomi<<Rin/Sakura<<Illya<<<<Faltt<<Gray and so on and so forth until the most powerful modern mage(Excluding True Magic users of course) after which comes Servants and Raikou has an A-Rank mana stat meaning she has better magic ciruits than servants with lower ranks of Mana and then Magic Resistance on top of that so its also pretty ridiculously layered
 
I will reiterate that I've literally never heard that BFR exclusively doesn't work for smurf shit. That claim is unsupported.

As for the scaling chain, I suppose I'd need to know whether that's actually a proper layered resistance chain. Can each step below not affect the layer up? A 21 save would fail to Charon's, whereas a 22 wouldn't. Just saying "ah well this person is stronger with better magic" isn't quite the same. Also those other things aren't relevant afaik, reads as just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.

But, again, the Far Realm is 1-A. She has no resistance, this is an unsupported claim that BFR randomly doesn't work like that.
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
baseline 4-D resistances
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If you're basing resistances on dimensions then that is not relevant. Charon's teleportation spell is outright 1-A which bypasses that scale.
FallenMaou2234 said:
Magecraft and the like
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The issue here is that the teleportation baseline is coming from Caster who's a servant. That scale only works if it started at a Servant than worked its way up. You would have to showcase someone in that scale casting a teleportation spell and a servant resisting that in order for your scale to work.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If you're basing resistances on dimensions then that is not relevant. Charon's teleportation spell is outright 1-A which bypasses that scale.
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Whoa 1-A?? Guess that's what I get for skimming through the thread if he has 1-A Smurf stuff then this is likely a stomp.

Like if the Teleportation is 1-A then she can't resist it
 
Qawsedf234 said:
He'd only ever use the spell with prior knowledge and against an opponent he couldn't beat otherwise, like against Berserker's second key. But he can use his daily wish power combined with his stupid levels of intelligence to replicate a move that opens a Gate to the Far Realm and sends the target to that dimension.
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I doubt Raikou's tanking this if he decides to use it. Hmmm i was thinking incon but now I feel like this Is probably a stomp now
 
I don't really think it is. She has a way to win apparently. Still, if you say so.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
What her scaling chain? Charon's chain is that his automatic spell level is equal to 22 when 9 or so is the baseline resistance to teleportation. While not 1:1 for layered resistance, he's to the point where he would overpower a three to six deep resistance chain consistently.
Click to expand...
Would need to search more throughly to get specific number of layers but generally speaking servants, as divine mysteries, which put them above all human mages and magecraft and other mysteries like phantasmal species, then among servants themselves they also have scaling since Mana act as a natural defense against hax (reason to why with certain mana rank people can resist Gate of Sky for example), then there is Mana Resistance which as a skill is a level above that, Raikou Mana Rank is A (Lowest Rank being E-), while her Mana Resistance is D, and if we are using her Gozu Tenno self that mean she would get Indra Authority, which would be like 9 layers or so? At leat based on this crt and the fact that Indra is a high ranking god.
Mr._Bambu said:
I will reiterate that I've literally never heard that BFR exclusively doesn't work for smurf shit. That claim is unsupported.
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The seem to at least exist people that believe that bfr potency isn't related to higher d, so at the very least is a notion that people have and I believe there is no official stance from the wiki regarding that, would need to ask more persons knowleagbles in things related to higher dimension to confirm.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I don't really think it is. She has a way to win apparently. Still, if you say so.
Click to expand...
I mean speaking frankly if the Teleportation is 1-A BFR then there's nothing Raikou can do about it and that's why it'd probably be safe to assume he stomps. If the Teleportation only sends you to a 1-A place and isn't 1-A in Potency then I'll be sticking with Incon

No way for her to bypass type 9 Immortality and no way for Charon to Hax her to death so they'd Stalemate
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
I doubt Raikou's tanking this if he decides to use it. Hmmm i was thinking incon but now I feel like this Is probably a stomp now
Click to expand...
Nah, isn't a stomp, Raikou have an actual way to pull a win, if Charon end winning do to chose to go with the BFR is another thing. At the end both sides have win cons so is a valid match.
 
The first one of those seems to imply differently, and no offense but a couple people possessing a misconception does not a standard make. It would need to be a standard to go against the rule, rather than one to abide by it. BFR can have potency, the same as any other ability.

Charon can indeed overcome nine layers of resistance, per his save DC being 30 (that is, 20 above baseline resistance).

To be clear, Charon can't use Gate from his safe spot, he would need to engage her again. The shit does not have 1-A range.
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
1-A place and isn't 1-A in Potency then I'll be sticking with Incon
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It sends you into the stomach of a 1-A Far Realm monster. Which is why the person instantly dies if they go through the portal since they're just obliterated.
Mr._Bambu said:
Charon can indeed overcome nine layers of resistance, per his save DC being 30 (that is, 20 above baseline resistance).
Click to expand...
Oh so that's what our layers were. I'll be honest it's been awhile since I've argued so I forgot how we did them.
Expectro2000xxx said:
Would need to search more throughly to get specific number of layers but generally speaking servants, as divine mysteries, which put them above all human mages and magecraft and other mysteries like phantasmal species, then among servants themselves they also have scaling since Mana act as a natural defense against hax (reason to why with certain mana rank people can resist Gate of Sky for example), then there is Mana Resistance which as a skill is a level above that, Raikou Mana Rank is A (Lowest Rank being E-), while her Mana Resistance is D, and if we are using her Gozu Tenno self that mean she would get Indra Authority, which would be like 9 layers or so? At leat based on this crt and the fact that Indra is a high ranking god.
Click to expand...
From what I understand from the accepted Servant page, the BFR resistance comes from Caster and not a human mage. So the scale would start on the servant level and work up, rather than start at the mage level and work up.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Oh so that's what our layers were. I'll be honest it's been awhile since I've argued so I forgot how we did them.
Click to expand...
Aye. 10 means no bonus to resist, 10 is what a Commoner (e.g., normal ass guy) has, 10 is baseline. 11 and up implies resistance.
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
How does Raikou get past Type 9 Immortality?
Click to expand...
Using Indra/Gozu Tenno Authorities.
Mr._Bambu said:
The first one of those seems to imply differently, and no offense but a couple people possessing a misconception does not a standard make. It would need to be a standard to go against the rule, rather than one to abide by it. BFR can have potency, the same as any other ability.

To be clear, Charon can't use Gate from his safe spot, he would need to engage her again. The shit does not have 1-A range.
Click to expand...
I don't say that it can't have potency though, I instead say that I don't believe that sending x to a higher dimension mean that the BFR in question have a higher potency that a 3D BFR for example. There is no official stance regarding that so I'm not what side is right, which is why I thought in asking more people knowledgeable in things related to higher dimensions.

If it send you to a 1-A place it mean that it have a 1-A range though, otherwise it can reach that place.
Qawsedf234 said:
From what I understand from the accepted Servant page, the BFR resistance comes from Caster and not a human mage. So the scale would start on the servant level and work up, rather than start at the mage level and work up.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure there are also modern mages able to BFR, though would need to search them to be sure so meanwhile I guess is a fair point if he have more layers.
 
I don't say that it can't have potency though, I instead say that I don't believe that sending x to a higher dimension mean that the BFR in question have a higher potency that a 3D BFR for example. There is no official stance regarding that so I'm not what side is right, which is why I thought in asking more people knowledgeable in things related to higher dimensions.

If it send you to a 1-A place it mean that it have a 1-A range though, otherwise it can reach that place.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think BFR itself is one of those hax affected by dimensionality (talked about that in the past and generally speaking people seemed to agree that is a hax that don't get a higher potency with dimensionality, just that it have a higher range), but well, if is really more powerful depending of dimensionality then yes Raikou would be unable to resist something with a 1-A potency.
Click to expand...
This would seem to imply the opposite but if you say so.

The spell linked by Qawsed works by manipulating the Far Realm itself, though, and I'd forgotten that Wish can indeed just use that spell. It is 1-A in potency. For a bit I thought Qaw was arguing Gate could link to the Far Realm, which I questioned but intended to look into when I had time. Remembering that those spells exist and their interaction with the Wish spell does, however, concretely spell this out.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It sends you into the stomach of a 1-A Far Realm monster. Which is why the person instantly dies if they go through the portal since they're just obliterated.

From what I understand from the accepted Servant page, the BFR resistance comes from Caster and not a human mage. So the scale would start on the servant level and work up, rather than start at the mage level and work up.
Click to expand...
The rejection of Magic power is possible for all those who possess sufficient Magical energy and magic circuits. Medea is used as an example because she uses it in canon. But Spatial Transference is something those with Magic Circuits can also resist hence why all Mages of the Nasuverse have BFR resistance on their profiles. This is done by rejecting the magic power aimed to affect you with your own hence why the stronger your Magic circuits the stronger your resistance so something that would affect a lower Tier Magus like Shirou wouldn't affect a master mage like Tokiomi Tohsaka
 
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