Minamoto no Raikou vs Charon

[Expectro2000xxx]

I don't know how she even wins. She quite literally cannot bypass his in-universe broken Immortality since it technically falls within the 24 hour window for resurrection battle time limits.

Destoying his concept and info wouldn't do the deal? Since he only have Low Godly. The point was that with spiritual attacks she can do that, and that spiritual attacks work not only on servants but even on divine spirits.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly don't know what could be the difference between the two since they are basically the same. Though if make you feel better Magic Resistance can resist status effects like stun in game.

Nah, her resistances aren't baseline, normal human magic in fate already is 4D, and while there are a long scaling chain generally speaking servants are beings on another completely different level compared to humans magecraft, then servants themselves have their own scaling chain and in Raikou case her Magic Resistance is Rank D, which is something considerably since it mean that her resistance is so strong that directly null all the haxs trying to affect her. Then there also are those resistances and haxs that work on gods so there are things that isntead of 4D are 6-8D, like for example the mind resistance that come from resisting Tiamat. So in short, she resist his haxs.

I don't really know what to tell you if you don't know the difference between being literally paralyzed and stunned.

Well homeboy isn't "6-8D" so he shan't bypass those, though based on your phrasing I assume this does not apply to all of her resistances. Still, though, nothing seems to imply she'd override his resistances, given they're in the same exact boat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think it's appropriate to use Resistances that haven't been implemented yet no??

Its an accepted blog tbf. We just need to add it to all the profiles which will take some time.

Destoying his concept and info wouldn't do the deal?

Not in this case. Charon's immortality is multifold. Its not only that he exists on five different planes at once but the River Styx will just make a new stronger version of Charon whenever one dies. To destroy him permanently she would need to destroy every living being in an infinite multiverse or destroy a river the size of a multiverse and then kill him five times within one day.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I don't really know what to tell you if you don't know the difference between being literally paralyzed and stunned.

Well homeboy isn't "6-8D" so he shan't bypass those, though based on your phrasing I assume this does not apply to all of her resistances. Still, though, nothing seems to imply she'd override his resistances, given they're in the same exact boat.

I could understand the difference between the two if it was a paralysis for something like electricity, but if is just a supernatural paralysis then don't know why would be different to stun if both do the same exact thing.

Not all of the resistances are higher d, but a good chunk of them. Now I'm on mobile but later I could look at the things in the servant physiology page to see those of higher d.

Edit: Just in case, when I say higher d I mean higher than 4D.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I could understand the difference between the two if it was a paralysis for something like electricity, but if is just a supernatural paralysis then don't know why would be different to stun if both do the same exact thing.

Not all of the resistances are higher d, but a good chunk of them. Now I'm on mobile but later I could look at the things in the servant physiology page to see those of higher d.

It doesn't do the exact same thing. One stuns, one paralyzes. Stunned people are still capable of basic actions like speech, albeit distorted. Paralysis physically prevents you from moving altogether.

If you like.

Its an accepted blog tbf. We just need to add it to all the profiles which will take some time.

Aye, any of the D&D workgroup can confirm this (most of whom are on this thread, at the moment). It's a wildly unfinished list and the amount of work to apply it to profiles is ungodly. Someday, though- it's on the memo, even if the memo has begun yellowing with age.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Not in this case. Charon's immortality is multifold. Its not only that he exists on five different planes at once but the River Styx will just make a new stronger version of Charon whenever one dies. To destroy him permanently she would need to destroy every living being in an infinite multiverse or destroy a river the size of a multiverse and then kill him five times within one day.

His Immortality has held up against someone Erasing his Concept/Soul before?? Because his regen is only Low-Godly so how does that work?? I'm a little confused

 

[Qawsedf234]

His Immortality has held up against someone Erasing his Concept/Soul before?

His basic Immortality does not afaik (its "just" Low-Godly like other Outer Plane things), but his reliant Immortality works off of the River Styx which can effect and revive Gods who have Mid-Godly regen.

Because his regen is only Low-Godly so how does that work?

To summarize

• Charon exists in five different multiverses at once. One dying does not effect the other and the dead one will just respawn in 24 hours
• Charon is a living concept as are all Outer Plane creatures
• Charon is what amounts to be an Avatar of the River Styx which flows through five different multiversal realms. The river will revive and empower Charon if he is slain

To kill perma-kill Charon you would need to bypass the resurrection of the River Styx and do so five times.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

His basic Immortality does not afaik (its "just" Low-Godly like other Outer Plane things), but his reliant Immortality works off of the River Styx which can effect and revive Gods who have Mid-Godly regen.

To summarize

• Charon exists in five different multiverses at once. One dying does not effect the other and the dead one will just respawn in 24 hours
• Charon is a living concept as are all Outer Plane creatures
• Charon is what amounts to be an Avatar of the River Styx which flows through five different multiversal realms. The river will revive and empower Charon if he is slain

To kill perma-kill Charon you would need to bypass the resurrection of the River Styx and do so five times.

I see well Mid-Godly wouldn't hold up because it is Conceptual Erasure Erasure you'd need High-Godly I believe And thanks to Gods/Divine Spirits possessing Type 8 Immortality. But I don't think Raikou has anything that can bypass the Type 9 you've mentions so idk. Would dying for 24 Hours not satisfy wincons though??

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would dying for 24 Hours not satisfy wincons though??

How I read the rules:

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

So in this case Charon's regen technically short enough to reach the victory time limit.

wouldn't hold up because it is Conceptual Erasure Erasure you'd need High-Godly

She could overwrite his immortality by replacing its concept (assuming he can't resist it), but that wouldn't stop the River from just spawning a fresh Charon.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I see well Mid-Godly wouldn't hold up because it is Conceptual Erasure Erasure you'd need High-Godly I believe And thanks to Gods/Divine Spirits possessing Type 8 Immortality. But I don't think Raikou has anything that can bypass the Type 9 you've mentions so idk. Would dying for 24 Hours not satisfy wincons though??

I actually asked @Mr._Bambu on this. Basically if a person has knowledge and dimensional travel, they can theoretically go to the universes containing the immortal's original form

Check this

 

[Qawsedf234]

Charon's different from most others, but yeah. If you can kill a creature and then slay it in their home plane they're usually dead-dead (though there's a lot of ways to bring them back even then). Though again Charon has the ability to resist both conceptually and causality manipulation so she may not be able to even bypass his natural regeneration.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

How I read the rules:

So in this case Charon's regen technically short enough to reach the victory time limit.

She could overwrite his immortality by replacing its concept (assuming he can't resist it), but that wouldn't stop the River from just spawning a fresh Charon.

Can he insta teleport back to Raikou the moment he respawns?? Cause in that case Technically because he respawn right on the day mark depending on the time taken to travel back it may satisfy the Wincons since he hasn't harmed her for over a day unless I've misinterpreted that

It also does stat that knocking them out for at least an hour works

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can he insta teleport back to Raikou the moment he respawns?

Charon has both Teleportation, Location powers and Dimensional Shifting powers as either natural abilities or learned spells. He can also move to any point of the River Styx if he needs to. So while it might be difficult he should be able to locate and warp back to Berserker if needed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So given this new context, can the anime woman actually down Charon?

 

[Peppersalt43]

So given this new context, can the anime woman actually down Charon?

Lets wait until the supporters come back. I don't think they're done arguing yet

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aye, it is why I asked. Just trying to prompt a response to a specific question.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

So given this new context, can the anime woman actually down Charon?

Doubt it, She can't bypass type 9 immortality

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Tllmbrg cannot be summoned manually as they often refuse whenever asked, @Antoniofer is often busy with a lot of other problems, @LephyrTheRevanchist just recently returned, and you are often uninterested in directly participating which is why I usually just ask needed questions in your message wall and fill the blanks with internet sources and provided scans. Also I'm surprised you didn't notice the existence of this thread when I suddenly, out-of-format, asked what Charon's dimensionality is

yay, finally recognized

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In that case, this is probably a stomp, if she can't deal with the Styx resurrecting Charon. I'll wait and see if other supporters want to chime in.

Ought not to vote on threads where no single supporter of the other verse shows up, lads.

 

[Peppersalt43]

In that case, this is probably a stomp, if she can't deal with the Styx resurrecting Charon. I'll wait and see if other supporters want to chime in.

Ought not to vote on threads where no single supporter of the other verse shows up, lads.

Ah well, at least it was immortality that made him broken and not dimensionalities. I can still do my Dream Larva match

 

[FallenMaou2234]

In that case, this is probably a stomp, if she can't deal with the Styx resurrecting Charon. I'll wait and see if other supporters want to chime in.

Ought not to vote on threads where no single supporter of the other verse shows up, lads.

Besides the Type 9 Immortality it's pretty evenly matched so I wouldn't call it a Stomp Charon just has Abilities Raikou can't deal with

That aside what's the consensus here then?? Inconclusive??

 

[Qawsedf234]

If she can't brick through the regen and resurrections, Charon eventually wins with enough power amps and/or some of his abilities eventually bricking through her resistances since she's fighting a river that destroys memories on some weird conceptual level against a person who has near complete control over said river.

 

[Regidian]

If she can't brick through the regen and resurrections, Charon eventually wins with enough power amps and/or some of his abilities eventually bricking through her resistances since she's fighting a river that destroys memories on some weird conceptual level against a person who has near complete control over said river.

The resistance of memory manipulation of servant are 9D, it came from abigail and her bounded field.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

If she can't brick through the regen and resurrections, Charon eventually wins with enough power amps and/or some of his abilities eventually bricking through her resistances since she's fighting a river that destroys memories on some weird conceptual level against a person who has near complete control over said river.

Unless she doesn't kill him over and over again. Raikou is a skilled Warrior and "Mystery Hunter" if she clocks he gets stronger everytime he dies she could always switch to Incapacitation, Sealing or Absorption

Also what's the specifics on this amp each time he dies?? Also again as much of a cop out as this seems, isn't setting the fight in a location that gives one side of the party advantages a little unfair? Seeing as how he gains Abilities by being near it??

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Literally Charon would need to win once. You can argue skill as much as you like, eventually that will happen if this is an even match besides Charon's complete inability to die.

I don't think the location particularly matters, given he can travel from there and you folks are saying she has 9-D resistance to memory manip. It actually behooves her to fight Charon there, since that's one of the five realities where he would need to be simultaneously killed to actually put him down. Otherwise she would need to reach that spawn point of her own volition. It doesn't particularly matter, given she can't put him down for good, but it would be a boon otherwise.

 

[Peppersalt43]

she can't put him down for good, but it would be a boon otherwise.

Actually, I don't think they've specified on these things

Incapacitation, Sealing or Absorption

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Resists both Sealing and Absorption (and I strongly suspect Absorption would still proc the River Styx thing anyways, though this is just an interpretation). Incap would depend on the methodology but the man resists everything under the sun on a 4-D level upscaled in terms of layers.

Mind that nobody has really even argued what Charon does to her, just established that he will almost certainly survive what she does to him.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Literally Charon would need to win once. You can argue skill as much as you like, eventually that will happen if this is an even match besides Charon's complete inability to die.

I don't think the location particularly matters, given he can travel from there and you folks are saying she has 9-D resistance to memory manip. It actually behooves her to fight Charon there, since that's one of the five realities where he would need to be simultaneously killed to actually put him down. Otherwise she would need to reach that spawn point of her own volition. It doesn't particularly matter, given she can't put him down for good, but it would be a boon otherwise.

I doubt it, it took Suzuka Gozen being significantly faster and Activating a skills that put her processing ability on the level of a supercomputer that can simulate an Infinite number of Parallel worlds and possibilities via sheer calculation alone to land a nick on her in CQC so he'd probably need to Hax her to death cause Servants can go on forever so long as they have Magic

 

[Qawsedf234]

it came from abigail and her bounded field.

I... have no reference to what that is or what that means.

Also what's the specifics on this amp each time he dies??

He gets strong by the river until he kills whoever killed him. Its why not even Demon Lords and Archdevils mess with him, since its not worth it.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I... have no reference to what that is or what that means.

He gets strong by the river until he kills whoever killed him. Its why not even Demon Lords and Archdevils mess with him, since its not worth it.

No like Multipliers hahaha

Resists both Sealing and Absorption (and I strongly suspect Absorption would still proc the River Styx thing anyways, though this is just an interpretation). Incap would depend on the methodology but the man resists everything under the sun on a 4-D level upscaled in terms of layers.

Mind that nobody has really even argued what Charon does to her, just established that he will almost certainly survive what she does to him.

And idk about that, he can travel there sure but if he doesn't benefit from the Passive memory manipulation when he's not at the river then I think that's a home field advantage. Just put it on neutral grounds won't change too much here.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I... have no reference to what that is or what that means.

Abigail is the Vessel of an Outer God and can use its powers and Outer Gods are 9-D in the Nasuverse

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I doubt it, it took Suzuka Gozen being significantly faster and Activating a skills that put her processing ability on the level of a supercomputer that can simulate an Infinite number of Parallel worlds and possibilities via sheer calculation alone to land a nick on her in CQC so he'd probably need to Hax her to death cause Servants can go on forever so long as they have Magic

Good thing Charon has the intelligence of an Elder Brain, which is effectively a living supercomputer.

This does not end in Incon. Personally, I believe it's a stomp- she can't kill him. Charon does not have a way to lose this. I don't know what kind of skill thread copium has been spreading throughout VS matches these days, but it doesn't matter either way. The fact is that in an infinite timespan she will eventually be hit. That's just how it is.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No like Multipliers hahaha

Its some vague infinite multiplier. Various 2-C characters don't mess with Charon because it would mean that he would eventually either get them or risk something even worse coming after him.

benefit from the Passive memory manipulation

Touching Charon requires a mental resistance since that would also wipe your memories away.

Outer Gods are 9-D in the Nasuverse

The most I see for Nasuverse is Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. I'm not seeing a solid 1-C rating and if you're pushing it D&D also features magical abilities that would go into 8th and 9th dimensional scaling so that still might not be good enough.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

if you're pushing it D&D also features magical abilities that would go into 8th and 9th dimensional scaling so that still might not be good enough.

let's just simply not push it, so people don't use my characters and bother me about it

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Good thing Charon has the intelligence of an Elder Brain, which is effectively a living supercomputer.

This does not end in Incon. Personally, I believe it's a stomp- she can't kill him. Charon does not have a way to lose this. I don't know what kind of skill thread copium has been spreading throughout VS matches these days, but it doesn't matter either way. The fact is that in an infinite timespan she will eventually be hit. That's just how it is.

A supercomputer that has the processing power to Simulate an Infinite number of Timelines? Cause if it's a normal supercomputer then I don't think it stacks up and I'm just stating things as they happened in canon thats what it took just to nick her

The most I see for Nasuverse is Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. I'm not seeing a solid 1-C rating and if you're pushing it D&D also features magical abilities that would go into 8th and 9th dimensional scaling so that still might not be good enough.

Those guys are 6-D and 8-D, outer Gods scale above them, it was accepted in the recent Lostbelt division https://vsbattles.com/threads/fate-grand-order-lostbelt-revision.139062/

 

[Peppersalt43]

let's just simply not push it, so people don't use my characters and bother me about it

1. If I were to one day make an in-verse match between god-tiers of D&D, would you mind helping me? Because you seem to be the most knowledgeable on the topic

 

[Qawsedf234]

Those guys are 6-D and 8-D, outer Gods scale above it was accepted in the recent Lostbelt division

Which like I said, probably might not be enough

The sigil the Dread Rings defined could never exist again—not in the conventional, three-dimensional world. But there were many more dimensions than that, even if people couldn’t ordinarily perceive them. Were it otherwise, the mortal plane and all the higher and lower worlds wouldn’t be able to coexist.

He dropped his staff to clatter on the roof and summoned a different one, fashioned of clear crystal, into his hand. Once, it had belonged to Yaphyll, the greatest seer he’d ever known; he’d found it sealed in a secret vault in the Tower of Vision after the zulkirs had abandoned Bezantur. It was the best tool he possessed for what he had in mind, which was no guarantee that it was powerful enough.

He brandished the glittering staff and recited words of power, and an image of the realm’s plains, plateaus, and mountains, the rivers,
akes, and seashore appeared floating in the air before him. Black dots designated the Dread Rings and the Citadel.

He spoke again, and the map shifted, although no one else would have seen it alter. That was because Szass Tam now viewed it in four dimensions, in a manner foreign to normal human perception. And the experience was all but intolerable, like looking directly at the sun. As a necromancer, Szass Tam was used to contemplating the bizarre, the hideous, and the paradoxical, but even so, this view spiked pain through his eyes and deep into his head.

He forced himself to keep peering anyway, until he had the information to make his calculations. Which revealed that four
dimensions were not enough. So he called for five and let out an involuntary groan. Five were
much worse than four, exponentially worse, perhaps. And five
weren’t sufficient, either.

So it was on to six, and then seven. Whimpering, shuddering, and jerking uncontrollably, he wondered if the mere act of observation could kill a man, even if the fellow was already dead. Given what he was suffering, he suspected it could, but even so, he refused to relent. He’d always known he was risking his existence by
undertaking the Great Work, and if he perished now, so be it.

Eight dimensions. Then nine. And nine were enough. When he took the proper two-dimensional cross section of that curved and infinitely complex space, the surviving Dread Rings and his present location fell into the proper positions relative to one another.

The River Styx can still mentally effect people with this perception and resistance chains. So her passively resisting Charon is questionable, especially when she's fighting on said river.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. If I were to one day make an in-verse match between god-tiers of D&D, would you mind helping me? Because you seem to be the most knowledgeable on the topic

I live an incredibly accursed existence, yes. Though this is marginally better than the other slavering matches like this one as it would be an in-universe fight where it isn't just a **** measuring contest with some other random verse with no apparent aesthetic connection at all.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Which like I said, probably might not be enough

The River Styx can still mentally effect people with this perception and resistance chains. So her passively resisting Charon is questionable, especially when she's fighting on said river.

He has 9-D smurf stuff?? Why doesn't he have higher tier?? And even more reason to change the stage unless he doesn't have access to these Abilities when not on the river. Also this 9-D applies to his Mind Manipulation only or other stuff?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why doesn't he have higher tier?

It would only be his memory manipulation and nothing else really.

And even more reason to change the stage unless he doesn't have access to these Abilities when not on the river.

Changing really won't matter much since Charon has at will powers that allow him to teleport things to the River.