Minamoto no Raikou vs Charon

[Qawsedf234]

For a bit I thought Qaw was arguing Gate could link to the Far Realm

Afaik I only think the Mind Flayers and Gods/Immortals have the ability to enter the Far Realm like that without a ton of prep time.

Wish is the sole way he could use the spell and the only reason why he'd ever use that in-character is because Charon has the right mindset, strong enough will resistance to not instantly be driven insane and knowledge that his opponent will easily kill him if he doesn't use that spell.

Medea is used as an example because she uses it in canon

I mean the main thing for resistances is actually resisting something. If no human mage has ever tried to teleport a servant and failed then they just can't be used for a scaling chain.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I mean the main thing for resistances is actually resisting something. If no human mage has ever tried to teleport a servant and failed then they just can't be used for a scaling chain.

I'm pretty sure infering here should be enough it's stated Magic Circuits can reject effects of Magecraft intended to affect them by using their own magic, Spatial Transference is a form of Magecraft so it stands to reason that depending on the level of power used it can be resisted by Mages as long as they have sufficient Magical energy. and as far as the strength of their Magic circuits and to the effects of Magecraft go we also know that Servants scale above Modern Magi especially Raikou as she has A-Rank mana which puts her Magic circuits above those of most Servants who are already Superior to Mages and then she has B-Rank MR on top of that (seeing as how were using second key Raikou)

Using Indra/Gozu Tenno Authorities.

We changed Key's?? I see then

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

she has B-Rank MR on top of that (seeing as how were using second key Raikou)

Ah, you're right, I forgot that her MR Rank D is exclusive of her Berserker self so as a Rider she should have a higher level, more so considering that is in her Gozu Tenno state.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Afaik I only think the Mind Flayers and Gods/Immortals have the ability to enter the Far Realm like that without a ton of prep time.

Wish is the sole way he could use the spell and the only reason why he'd ever use that in-character is because Charon has the right mindset, strong enough will resistance to not instantly be driven insane and knowledge that his opponent will easily kill him if he doesn't use that spell.

This is fair. I don't think that spell actually negatively impacts the user, unlike something like the Vast Gate.

As pointed out, if her scaling chain is 9 layers of total resistance, you need 20 to bypass Charon- this all assumes 1-A isn't valid anyways. Which it is. This spell specifically manipulates the Far Realm itself.

If we're really sitting down to think about it, and not resolving this quickly, frankly Charon absolutely should take this, now that I recall Wish would let him cast her into the Far Realm to be eaten by something truly awful.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm pretty sure infering here should be enough

Was that ever accepted though? The page itself starts at Caster and not a mage, hax also doesn't usually scale in such a linear or basic fashion like that as well.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Was that ever accepted though? The page itself starts at Caster and not a mage, hax also doesn't usually scale in such a linear or basic fashion like that as well.

It was accepted and that's why Mages like Rin and Shirou have BFR/HDM resistance on their profiles if it only scaled to Servants then they wouldn't have it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It was accepted and that's why Mages like Rin and Shirou have BFR resistance on their profiles if it only scaled to Servants then they wouldn't have it.

Does teleportation work differently in Fate?

(All magi and characters with Magic Circuits have resistance to magical effects that aim to control and create effects within others, by rejecting the effect with magical energy)

Charon isn't creating an effect within someone, he's just opening a point in space.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

telefragged by the far realm

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Does teleportation work differently in Fate?

Charon isn't creating an effect within someone, he's just opening a point in space.

He like opens a hole and it sucks you in?? Not him directly transporting you??

 

[Qawsedf234]

He like opens a hole and it sucks you in?

Yes. He opens a hole to the stomach of a Far Realm entity and it sucks you in.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Yes. He opens a hole to the stomach of a Far Realm entity and it sucks you in.

Wait then is that not Portal Creation rather than BFR?? What's the strength of the pull any like Feats?? and he can spawn it anywhere no??

Getting back to the debate Servants can resist Gate Of Skye so like opening the portal itself isn't a problem but that's a little surprising been using the wrong example the entire time hahahah

 

[Qawsedf234]

Portal Creation rather than BFR??

Charon raises his hand and around the outline of your body becomes a link to the stomach of a Far Realm monster that sucks you in.

What's the strength of the pull any like Feats?

Its resisting a gateway/suction of a 1-A thing. Its why it was brought up as his only win condition, as its a move she's probably not able to resist.

he can spawn it anywhere no?

For Charon's level its maximum range is over the listed starting distance in the OP, so he'll be able to use it from the jump.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Its resisting a gateway/suction of a 1-A thing. Its why it was brought up as his only win condition, as its a move she's probably not able to resist.

Wait, so the point with the higher d potency was more so because the suction is directly done by a 1-A being instead of send to a 1-A place? Because in that case her resistances don't actually matter since she would need 1-A LS to resist the pull, at least if I'm understanding correctly what you say.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Charon raises his hand and around the outline of your body becomes a link to the stomach of a Far Realm monster that sucks you in.Its resisting a gateway/suction of a 1-A thing. Its why it was brought up as his only win condition, as its a move she's probably not able to resist.

So it does have 1-A potency right?? If that's the case and he uses it often then I think I'll go back to calling this a stomp.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wait, so the point with the higher d potency was more so because the suction is directly done by a 1-A being instead of send to a 1-A place? Because in that case her resistances don't actually matter since she would need 1-A LS to resist the pull, at least if I'm understanding correctly what you say.

The suction of the FR monster pulls you through the outline (which is why as stated in the spell you're just automatically drawn with zero saving throws), but as the spell states you can bounce off the dimensional portal with high enough resistance. Which is why I brining up layers and 1-A resistances.

So it does have 1-A potency right?

The D&D multiverse is a High 1-B space with infinite dimensions and infinite parallel timelines. This space is considered either a infinitesimal experiment created by a group of Ultra-Beings or accidently formed by a Far Realm monster scrapping part of reality. Its basically one of the only Far Realm spells a mortal can use that is actually 1-A in potency.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The suction of the FR monster pulls you through the outline (which is why as stated in the spell you're just automatically drawn with zero saving throws), but as the spell states you can bounce off the dimensional portal with high enough resistance. Which is why I brining up layers and 1-A resistances.

Ok, so no 1-A LS is needed, good then. Just asked DT (since as far I know he is one of the most knowledgeables regarding higher d stuff) about if something like BFR is one of those hax with higher potency depending on dimensionality so will wait until his answer to know if she indeed have a chance to resist it or not.



As a side note since I saw above her layers getting confused to 9, that would be the low balled numbers of the authority resistance but her actual layers of resistances would be above the other things I mentioned because authorities are above servants stuff.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

The suction of the FR monster pulls you through the outline (which is why as stated in the spell you're just automatically drawn with zero saving throws), but as the spell states you can bounce off the dimensional portal with high enough resistance. Which is why I brining up layers and 1-A resistances.

So does the resistance itself need to be 1-A to resist it or can they resist it via Layers because She has quite a Few if were talking Gate Of Skye as the example

 

[Qawsedf234]

So does the resistance itself need to be 1-A

Well its a portal that goes past a barrier made by a bunch of Low 1-A/1-As and into a 1-A realm. So it probably has 1-A range if nothing else.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Well its a portal that goes past a barrier made by a bunch of Low 1-A/1-As and into a 1-A realm. So it probably has 1-A range if nothing else.

So Raikou needs to have 1-A BFR/Portal Creation resistance to resist this no??

 

[Qawsedf234]

1-A BFR/Portal Creation resistance to resist this no??

If potency is a factor, yes. If it isn't then she has to overcome Charon's teleportation resistance negation.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

If potency is a factor, yes. If it isn't then she has to overcome Charon's teleportation resistance negation.

So what's going to decide if it's a factor?? And what are the layers on his resistance negation?? Cause using gate of Skye as an example (Cause it creates a portal that sucks you in) makes it a little easier to scale in terms of resistance layers

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what's going to decide if it's a factor?

Expectro is asking someone about it I guess.

And what are the layers on his resistance negation?

As Bambu said, about 20 or so.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

As Bambu said, about 20 or so.

Ah then we should be okay. Gate Of Skye can be resisted via Luck and Mana. So long as you don't have the lowest rank in each of those worst that'll happen is your mana will be drained Raikou has Gozou Tennou resistances which are nine layers on top of A-Rank Mana, C-Rank luck and B-Rank Magic resistance

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Always with the by-routes.

According to the previous post she has about 9 layers of resistance via upscaling. I fail to see why any of that is relevant, in that case- she does not resist the BFR either way.

I can no longer abide by incon, my ass is voting Charon. I'd voted Incon to save time, but at this point I really do fail to see how she would resist the 1-A BFR.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Always with the by-routes.

According to the previous post she has about 9 layers of resistance via upscaling. I fail to see why any of that is relevant, in that case- she does not resist the BFR either way.

And I'm kinda telling ya she has a couple more than 9 in the case of resisting a portal that sucks you in sooo... although granted if Potency is a factor then this is probably a stomp

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"a couple more" doesn't help. Even by the non standard logic that manipulating the 1-A realm wouldn't give 1-A potency (something that is currently accepted), you need to prove she has 20 layers of resistance. You did not do so, instead you vaguely gestured and said "well actually all it would do is drain her mana". That means nothin' to me on it's own.

A stomp would imply she has no means through which she can win. If this is the case, so be it. I don't think it is, given the titanic discussion above.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Did Raikou turn into Gozu Tennou key? then she will gain the Authority of Indra, which makes her have a lot of layered resistances scaling

Indra is the chief god, and based on the thread that Expectro sent, chief god has a resistance layer of over 30

 

[FallenMaou2234]

"a couple more" doesn't help. Even by the non standard logic that manipulating the 1-A realm wouldn't give 1-A potency (something that is currently accepted), you need to prove she has 20 layers of resistance. You did not do so, instead you vaguely gestured and said "well actually all it would do is drain her mana". That means nothin' to me on it's own.

A stomp would imply she has no means through which she can win. If this is the case, so be it. I don't think it is, given the titanic discussion above.

Well I'm pretty sure you didn't properly extrapolate the text "all it will do is drain her mana" wasn't referring to anything of Charons it's referring to what happens when Gate of Skye is resisted as in you'll resist getting sucked in but you'll lose some Mana depending on how good your Resistance is and Gate of skye is resisted via Luck and Mana which are ranked stats with each individual rank being a layer.

I then said so long as you don't have the lowest rank in either which is E- (As mentioned earlier) you can resist it and Just as Cu did in the America Singularity of FGO. Raikou has C-Rank Luck that's three layers+A-Rank Mana that's five layers+MR which is B-Rank That's another four layers of resistance+her Gozou Tennou resistances since were using her second key which is another nine layers.

We get you dont like dealing with weeb shit but At least ask for an explanation before taking shots hahahha

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Did Raikou turn into Gozu Tennou key? then she will gain the Authority of Indra, which makes her have a lot of layered resistances scaling

Indra is the chief god, and based on the thread that Expectro sent, chief god has a resistance layer of over 30

Yeah we are using her second key now

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Gozou Tennou resistances since were using her second key which is another nine layers.

Gozu Tennou should have authority. Should be more layers than that.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Gozu Tennou should have authority. Should be more layers than that.

Yeah probably, I was just going off what Expectro cited earlier cause he said 9

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Did Raikou turn into Gozu Tennou key? then she will gain the Authority of Indra, which makes her have a lot of layered resistances scaling

Indra is the chief god, and based on the thread that Expectro sent, chief god has a resistance layer of over 30

I said 9 to put Indra above Eresh (ourside the underworld) since she is a mid rank goddess, and that's because I honestly didn't know exactly at which point a big deity like Indra should go in that list based on the fact that from that point onwards the people listed had some special circunstances that probably would affect their potency compared (like Gorgon having the Authority of Tiamat which is a big thing, greek gods being the machine versions from the Lostbelts, etc), though I can understand if he really have more layers (that would actually make sense since he is one of the tops of the hindu pantheon and the people at his level are big shots like Kama, Arjuna, etc).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well I'm pretty sure you didn't properly extrapolate the text "all it will do is drain her mana" wasn't referring to anything of Charons it's referring to what happens when Gate of Skye is resisted as in you'll resist getting sucked in but you'll lose some Mana depending on how good your Resistance is and Gate of skye is resisted via Luck and Mana which are ranked stats with each individual rank being a layer.

I then said so long as you don't have the lowest rank in either which is E- (As mentioned earlier) you can resist it and Just as Cu did in the America Singularity of FGO. Raikou has C-Rank Luck that's three layers+A-Rank Mana that's five layers+MR which is B-Rank That's another four layers of resistance+her Gozou Tennou resistances since were using her second key which is another nine layers.

We get you dont like dealing with weeb shit but At least ask for an explanation before taking shots hahahha

I... more or less responded to that, yes. I don't even know what your point is here. You failed to elaborate, not does the elaboration matter- that's the effect of a different ability. It's not the same as being put into the stomach of a 1-A creature.

I don't particularly care of the Fate bros can decide on whether she has 9 layers or 700. The ability is 1-A. I'm growing tired of this fact being blithely ignored.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, you already gave your input and voted, so at this point you could actually stop to follow the thread. I'm just waiting confirmation to see if something like BFR have its potency affected by dimensionality.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I... more or less responded to that, yes. I don't even know what your point is here. You failed to elaborate, not does the elaboration matter- that's the effect of a different ability. It's not the same as being put into the stomach of a 1-A creature.

I don't particularly care of the Fate bros can decide on whether she has 9 layers or 700. The ability is 1-A. I'm growing tired of this fact being blithely ignored.

Well that's what we've been discussing the entire time whether or not the Potency affects actually being sucked in we asked if you needed 1-A/Immeasurable LS or if you needed 1-A Resistance to negate it. A knowledgeable member was asked and were waiting on the reply simple.

And According to the others in her it opens a portal and you're sucked into another place which is how Gate of Skye works as well so Verse equalization

We were just discussing layers in the event that the 1-A Resistance Potency in question isn't required and it just send you to a 1-A place so

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, you already gave your input and voted, so at this point you could actually stop to follow the thread. I'm just waiting confirmation to see if something like BFR have its potency affected by dimensionality.

The last time I didn't babysit a thread you guys FRA trained it.

BFR can be smurfshit, this BFR is. She does not have 1-A resistance to being eaten. Charon is more likely to win. My issue is no longer with the weebshit- it is with the nauseating stonewalling and bringing up of irrelevant details, of insisting on prolonging points that do not need prolonged.

Gate of Skye doesn't telefrag you into the stomach of a 1-A creature, no.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Don't believe is stonewalling wanting to confirm what I believe is a reasonable doubt about the interaction between one power and dimensionality. But anyways, will stop to comment until I get my answer from the staff I asked, when I get an answer will come to state the result of it.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

The last time I didn't babysit a thread you guys FRA trained it.

BFR can be smurfshit, this BFR is. She does not have 1-A resistance to being eaten. Charon is more likely to win. My issue is no longer with the weebshit- it is with the nauseating stonewalling and bringing up of irrelevant details, of insisting on prolonging points that do not need prolonged.

Gate of Skye doesn't telefrag you into the stomach of a 1-A creature, no.

We're not DnD Knowledgeables blame yourselves for not being active unless called upon not our fault the people arguing on that side didn't have all the info.

Just chill a bit lol if the guy confirms the 1-A smurfshit Charon stomps easy peasy no skin off your nose

That's the Potency again I'm talking about how the power works cause the other example was different

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

What are the chances of Charon using a 1-A BFR? from the start of the debate it seemed that it was an ability that wasn't even in his character. You guys say that River Strix is more likely to be used in battle.

what's stopping Raikou (Gozu Tennou key) from one-shoting him via conceptual attacks and abundant negation stuff?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What DT says doesn't even really matter, lad. Per your own admission, your question was not about whether BFR could be 1-A, but rather if it was made 1-A by the destination alone. You have repeatedly missed the point. Cerebrosis spells such as the one cited function by manipulating the Far Realm. It is 1-A. Plain and simple.

No, it is not the potency. It is the effect. Unless you are insinuating that all BFR is the same, you are wrong. If you are insinuating that, you are wrong twice. Qawsed explained it very nicely- it cuts out a space around you and places it inside a Far Realm creature's stomach to be digested. Unless Gate of Skye is doing something very similar, this is just another in a long line of irrelevant details.

Another matter. It has come to my attention that this is part of a sensationalized trend. How in God's name has this character, for whom so much has been said, had a fair match with MCU Thanos? I don't see how that's possible if everything said in this thread is true.