Minamoto no Raikou vs Charon

[Peppersalt43]

ALTERNATE TITLE: THE MINAMOTO NO RAIKOU SPAM WILL NEVER DIE​

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Didn't expect me to pull off something like this, huh?
I'm not familiar enough with how @Veloxt1r0kore usually does these things so sorry if this isn't a 1:1 copy of their usual format
Also I don't know how to do Imgur

Summary would be added later

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• Second key Raikou used
• Speed equalized
• Place Located in : The Styx River
• Both characters have prior knowledge
• Starting range : 30 meters
• Win via anything!!
• The Boatman of the Lower Planes : 0
• Daugther/Avatar of Indra (Gozu-Tenno): 0
• Incon : 2

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VS

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Don't know absolutely nothing about D&D, so would be good if the arguments for Charon are said first, specially since likely most of those who see this thread already have saw at least a Raikou match and thus know about her arguments in general.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Don't know absolutely nothing about D&D, so would be good if the arguments for Charon are said first, specially since likely most of those who see this thread already have saw at least a Raikou match and thus know about her arguments in general.

Yeah you see according to @Mr._Bambu over here, Charon is a wild card and any of his haxes is something he might just start with

Let's start with 2 things I actually find notable. His river and his talking

Charon's Social Influencing feat in insane, he can toy with leaders of expert manipulators, getting them to wage war for centuries

His water basically makes it so people forget literally everything and he can create individual elementals with those properties. Touch based for the water and the manip is mind based

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The dimensionality of the hax memory? Actually the dimensionality of all his things in general please.

And don't know how really useful that social influencing would be in the middle of an actual combat, she also interact normally with several Servants and other beings (a good chunk of them having high levels of SI) so even less sure how effective his SI would be in this situation.

 

[Peppersalt43]

The dimensionality of the hax memory? Actually the dimensionality of all his things in general please.

4-D

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

4-D

Cool, that means that she can resist the haxs and can actually kill him with spiritual attacks (the attacks with soul, info and concept hax), so what moves he could do to defeat or incap here in that case before she lands a spiritual attack?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Cool, that means that she can resist the haxs and can actually kill him with spiritual attacks (the attacks with soul, info and concept hax), so what moves he could do to defeat or incap here in that case before she lands a spiritual attack?

Uh, is it thought based? And can it be dodged?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Uh, is it thought based? And can it be dodged?

It's just she infusing her attacks with the spiritual energy needed to do the hax, so yes they are perfectly dodgeable as long he can dodge her attacks. To also note, against humans Servants seems to generally hold back and don't use this sort of thing left and right, but in this case since he isn't human (and do to Raikou nature as a mystical slayer) she could decide to start to use spiritual attacks relatively soon.

 

[Peppersalt43]

It's just she infusing her attacks with the spiritual energy needed to do the hax, so yes they are perfectly dodgeable as long he can dodge her attacks. To also note, against humans Servants seems to generally hold back and don't use this sort of thing left and right, but in this case since he isn't human (and do to Raikou nature as a mystical slayer) she could decide to start to use spiritual attacks relatively soon.

Ah, OK. So teleportation and invisibility might help. And if needed, he can just make a big wave of his memory wiping water or make an army of water constructs of said water

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ah, OK. So teleportation and invisibility might help. And if needed, he can just make a big wave of his memory wiping water or make an army of water constructs of said water

The teleportation is fair point, though she could still land things with either aoe or skill. Invisibility doubt it would be really useful unless it can block other senses since servants can feel various things (as see in the physiology page), even more considering how Raikou can detect people with Presence Concealment (just Rank D already made the user invisible and block other senses, this going as far as even disappear from the sensors of Chaldea machines which are able to feel things across history and in spatial abnormalitites) which is busted stealth. She resist the memory hax (mages baseline resistance is already 4D while servants resistance iirc come from Tiamat and some gods shit so 6D-8D), the water itself offensively as an attack don't know how effective could actually be since she have the LS to resist the current and her elemental resistance to water should lessen the damage (the water could also actually help her electricity from reaching him or she could vap it with the heat of it)

 

[Peppersalt43]

The teleportation is fair point, though she could still land things with either aoe or skill. Invisibility doubt it would be really useful unless it can block other senses since servants can feel various things (as see in the physiology page), even more considering how Raikou can detect people with Presence Concealment (just Rank D already made the user invisible and block other senses, this going as far as even disappear from the sensors of Chaldea machines which are able to feel things across history and in spatial abnormalitites) which is busted stealth. She resist the memory hax (mages baseline resistance is already 4D while servants resistance iirc come from Tiamat and some gods shit so 6D-8D), the water itself offensively as an attack don't know how effective could actually be since she have the LS to resist the current and her elemental resistance to water should lessen the damage (the water could also actually help her electricity from reaching him or she could vap it with the heat of it)

Ah OK, lets forget about that and go for simpler things. I'll assume she resists fear, empathic, and soul hax

Charon's staff has paralyzing and stunning properties on contact and he has a good number of abilities to get it to hit
*For starters, his teleportation which is pretty obvious
*One of the applications of Wish (Which is listed under Causality manip) can allow him to cancel an action which can mean negate a dodge or avoid an attack
*He can also just move over to an alternate universe where something he wants and is possible to happen happens (Listed under Probability manip)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Beside what Expectro has said, how skillful Charon are? What he's facing right now is a skill monster

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ah OK, lets forget about that and go for simpler things. I'll assume she resists fear, empathic, and soul hax

Charon's staff has paralyzing and stunning properties on contact and he has a good number of abilities to get it to hit
*For starters, his teleportation which is pretty obvious
*One of the applications of Wish (Which is listed under Causality manip) can allow him to cancel an action which can mean negate a dodge or avoid an attack
*He can also just move over to an alternate universe where something he wants and is possible to happen happens (Listed under Probability manip)

Yes, fear, emphatic, soul, paralysis, etc. Causality manip is also one of the things they resist (in Raikou case she would outright null it if it tried to directly affect her, this do to her Magic Resistance Rank D), so he would need to use it in a way that only affect himself instead of Raikou. Servants also resist probability manip, though I'm not sure how that would interact with what Charon do, it sounds a bit similar to what Musashi do but in her case is more extreme (since she control the infinite possibilities until there is only left the one she desire, that and create impossible possibilities), though if he himself travel to another universe to defeat another Raikou would that mean that Raikou technically won in this universe (do to how vs rules work in case someone left the arena)?

 

[Peppersalt43]

(do to how vs rules work in case someone left the arena)?

Technically as long as both fighters can fight each other, the BFR rules don't kick in yet

paralysis

Ah OK. However in Charon's case, his stun is described in his profile as "Afflicts struck enemies with stunning, rendering them unable to perform even simple tasks"

skillful Charon

In terms of skill, not that great

Demons and warlords are oftentimes able to kill off entire armies on their own while demon lords can easily skillstomp them both. Charon is superior to said lords

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Technically as long as both fighters can fight each other, the BFR rules don't kick in yet

I'm talking about this:

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR)

In this case if Charon really travel to another universe without defeating the original Raikou then that should count as a self bfr from Charon side, and if a week pass without him doing anything against the original Raikou then in principle should count as a win to Raikou.

Ah OK. However in Charon's case, his stun is described in his profile as "Afflicts struck enemies with stunning, rendering them unable to perform even simple tasks"

I mean, that sounds like normal paralysis, futhermore Raikou Magic Resistance Rank D would null it from affecting her (the skill basically null haxs, and in Raikou case do to her rank it only nulls the haxs directly affecting her instead of also affect the surroundings like higher levels).

In terms of skill, not that great

Demons and warlords are oftentimes able to kill off entire armies on their own while demon lords can easily skillstomp them both. Charon is superior to said lords

In that case Raikou should have a big skill advantage, since fighting entire armies is something that most servants (even ones of relatively low level) can do, if needed however later could search in other match one of my explanations about Raikou skill and post it here to show that she indeed have high skill.

 

[Peppersalt43]

In this case if Charon really travel to another universe without defeating the original Raikou then that should count as a self bfr from Charon side, and if a week pass without him doing anything against the original Raikou then in principle should count as a win to Raikou.

Oh yeah right, I don't think that's actually combat applicable. I may have made a mistake in interpretation

Speaking of BFR, I noticed that Charon has portal creation in the form of Gate. It's basically just a portal to his home dimension. Does Minamoto have counters to this?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Oh yeah right, I don't think that's actually combat applicable. I may have made a mistake in interpretation

Speaking of BFR, I noticed that Charon has portal creation in the form of Gate. It's basically just a portal to his home dimension. Does Minamoto have counters to this?

Ok then.

Seems like servants resist bfr in the servant physiology, (servants can also resist bfr like the Gate of Sky with their sheer luck and mana, and while I think Raikou luck fall a bit short to reach that level her mana is high enough).

 

[Peppersalt43]

Seems like servants resist bfr in the servant physiology, (servants can also resist bfr like the Gate of Sky with their sheer luck and mana, and while I think Raikou luck fall a bit short to reach that level her mana is high enough).

Yeah you see the problem with BFR is that there are many ways to perform it since it's basically just banishing the opponent to somewhere they can't normally come back from (In fact, there was a character I know whose BFR justification came from him putting a rocket on a guy and launching him to space).

So... How does Gate of Sky work?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yeah you see the problem with BFR is that there are many ways to perform it since it's basically just banishing the opponent to somewhere they can't normally come back from (In fact, there was a character I know whose BFR justification came from him putting a rocket on a guy and launching him to space).

So... How does Gate of Sky work?

Servants BFR in the physiology page come from Medea (her Trofa spell) so in beginning it look like this, while Gate of Sky look like this.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Servants BFR in the physiology page come from Medea (her Trofa spell) so in beginning it look like this, while Gate of Sky look like this.

Huh, that's interesting. So you can't just kick her into a portal?

Weird but cool I guess

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Sooo, considering how Raikou have various advantage on her side (skill, special buffs against mythical beings, and the haxs to kill him) along with resist or counter various of Charon options, I will vote Raikou.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Raikou fra

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Guess were going with Raikou, Raikou FRA

 

[Vizer04]

Raikou FRA

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

That's settled it then, Raikou FRA

 

[Popted2]

Raikou FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

And just to get this concluded

Raikou FRA

And that's grace, thank you everyone

{Also in case you're wondering, this is allowed based on this thread}

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I make it a habit to not engage with weeb threads too much when I can help it, but uh

I mean, that sounds like normal paralysis, futhermore Raikou Magic Resistance Rank D would null it from affecting her (the skill basically null haxs, and in Raikou case do to her rank it only nulls the haxs directly affecting her instead of also affect the surroundings like higher levels).

sir those aren't the same things even irl lmao, being stunned is not the same as being paralyzed.

Should also note that Charon's shit isn't baseline 4-D and bypasses layered resistances of lesser 6-Cs in-verse. Don't know if Servants have any of that super duper cool sicky gnar gnar 1-A hax resistance or what have you, but if it's just 4-D then Charon's stuff would almost certainly work. Flabbergasted that not a single D&D supporter was on this thread, as the others tend to care about these matches more than I.

 

[Peppersalt43]

as the others tend to care about these matches more than I.

@Tllmbrg cannot be summoned manually as they often refuse whenever asked, @Antoniofer is often busy with a lot of other problems, @LephyrTheRevanchist just recently returned, and you are often uninterested in directly participating which is why I usually just ask needed questions in your message wall and fill the blanks with internet sources and provided scans. Also I'm surprised you didn't notice the existence of this thread when I suddenly, out-of-format, asked what Charon's dimensionality is

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg cannot be summoned manually as they often refuse whenever asked

And it'll stay that way
Anyways I'm with Bambu on this match

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Anton isn't really a D&D guy strictly speaking.

And uh... yeah I just don't tend to look at threads much, only noticed this as Tllm showed it to me despite him never commenting either.

Just as an aside, @Qawsedf234 is extremely knowledgeable on D&D and is responsible for many of the verse's improvements since 2018. @Udlmaster (if he's still active) is also a D&D guy, particularly with anything higher-ended.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

On the off-chance that her hax is just 4-D, I'd like to note that Charon resists 100% of the listed kill methods for the opposition.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

sir those aren't the same things even irl lmao, being stunned is not the same as being paralyzed.

Should also note that Charon's shit isn't baseline 4-D and bypasses layered resistances of lesser 6-Cs in-verse. Don't know if Servants have any of that super duper cool sicky gnar gnar 1-A hax resistance or what have you, but if it's just 4-D then Charon's stuff would almost certainly work. Flabbergasted that not a single D&D supporter was on this thread, as the others tend to care about these matches more than I.

Honestly don't know what could be the difference between the two since they are basically the same. Though if make you feel better Magic Resistance can resist status effects like stun in game.

Nah, her resistances aren't baseline, normal human magic in fate already is 4D, and while there are a long scaling chain generally speaking servants are beings on another completely different level compared to humans magecraft, then servants themselves have their own scaling chain and in Raikou case her Magic Resistance is Rank D, which is something considerably since it mean that her resistance is so strong that directly null all the haxs trying to affect her. Then there also are those resistances and haxs that work on gods so there are things that isntead of 4D are 6-8D, like for example the mind resistance that come from resisting Tiamat. So in short, she resist his haxs.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

On the off-chance that her hax is just 4-D, I'd like to note that Charon resists 100% of the listed kill methods for the opposition.

Why aren't all these on his page?? Seems like It'd help??

Also no servant Hax and resistances aren't single layerd simply having Magic circuits gives you layered 4-D Hax resistance in the case of Mages. The greater your Magic circuits the greater your resistance. And needless to say the magic Circuits of Servants (most of the time) are far superior to that of Magi as they are divine mysteries and so on and so forth. There are cases like with Jack where competent Mages just had their spiritual cores ripped out of then with relative ease

On top of that you have Magic Resistance which can be bypassed by Servants like Raikou who has Mana Burst Lightning (Rank A) which means her charged attacks are layered even above that so yeah

 

[Udlmaster]

Anton isn't really a D&D guy strictly speaking.

And uh... yeah I just don't tend to look at threads much, only noticed this as Tllm showed it to me despite him never commenting either.

Just as an aside, @Qawsedf234 is extremely knowledgeable on D&D and is responsible for many of the verse's improvements since 2018. @Udlmaster (if he's still active) is also a D&D guy, particularly with anything higher-ended.

Just when I flee, I get dragged back in.

So, checking out Berserker's abilities, I have absolutely no idea what ability she would have that even stops Charon from absolutely mixing her shit.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Just when I flee, I get dragged back in.

So, checking out Bersker's abilities, I have absolutely no idea what ability she would have that even stops Charon from absolutely mixing her shit.

Check servant Physiology that's where most of the Hax and resistances that give her a shot here are

 

[Qawsedf234]

What exactly are Berserker's claimed win conditions?

Why aren't all these on his page?

They're being worked on for the AP/Hax scaling chain. We still have to go over what Far Realm spells do and don't count for 1-A potency which is why its taking some time.

Also no servant Hax and resistances aren't single layerd simply having Magic circuits gives you layered 4-D Hax resistance in the case of Mages. The greater your Magic circuits the greater your resistance. And needless to say the magic Circuits of Servants (most of the time) are far superior to that of Magi as they are divine mysteries and so on and so forth. There are cases like with Jack where competent Mages just had their spiritual cores ripped out of then with relative ease

Charon's abilities are also are layered. A "basic" person that qualifies for an actual level in D&D is considered baseline for all of those resistances and Charon is several orders of magnitude above that level. Her resisting to the point of being utterly immune to his spells would require quite a large scaling chain.

 

[Udlmaster]

Check servant Physiology that's where most of the Hax and resistances that give her a shot here are

Well, quite, I saw that.

But consistently, Demons constantly kill each other, who have superior regeneration than she does, and higher degrees of Resistances (as far as I can tell).

For the most part, I can't see what would stop his hax from bypassing her Resistances.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For the most part, I can't see what would stop his hax from bypassing her Resistances.

I don't know how she even wins. She quite literally cannot bypass his in-universe broken Immortality since it technically falls within the 24 hour window for resurrection battle time limits. She would also need to kill him five times across five different multiversal planes as well.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

What exactly are Berserker's claimed win conditions?

Her Superior Skill, Speed, Resitances and her ability to Kill him with Soul+Conceptual Manipulation and Charon's lack of resistances to said forms of attack

They're being worked on for the AP/Hax scaling chain. We still have to go over what Far Realm spells do and don't count for 1-A potency which is why its taking some time.

Well then as much of a cop out this sounds like. I don't think it's appropriate to use Resistances that haven't been implemented yet no??

Charon's abilities are also are layered. A "basic" person that qualifies for an actual level in D&D is considered baseline for all of those resistances and Charon is several orders of magnitude above that level. Her resisting to the point of being utterly immune to his spells would require quite a large scaling chain.

Well similarly even the weakest mages have said resistances to Hax and Servants are several orders of magnitude above them but that wasn't really the point of that passage I was just responding to questions asked about if Servants have layerd 4D hax