Minamoto no Raikou vs Charon

[Mr. Bambu]

What are the chances of Charon using a 1-A BFR? from the start of the debate it seemed that it was an ability that wasn't even in his character. You guys say that River Strix is more likely to be used in battle.

what's stopping Raikou (Gozu Tennou key) from one-shoting him via conceptual attacks and abundant negation stuff?

Better than 1/5. You clearly haven't been paying attention.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Another matter. It has come to my attention that this is part of a sensationalized trend. How in God's name has this character, for whom so much has been said, had a fair match with MCU Thanos? I don't see how that's possible if everything said in this thread is true.

Eh, it got broken when we changed to the second key

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Eh, it got broken when we changed to the second key

She was 4-D even in the first key, no?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Another matter. It has come to my attention that this is part of a sensationalized trend. How in God's name has this character, for whom so much has been said, had a fair match with MCU Thanos? I don't see how that's possible if everything said in this thread is true.

Second key is more broken. you can see reference of the power that possessed by gods here and the past nasuverse crt that has been accepted a long time ago.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

What DT says doesn't even really matter, lad. Per your own admission, your question was not about whether BFR could be 1-A, but rather if it was made 1-A by the destination alone. You have repeatedly missed the point. Cerebrosis spells such as the one cited function by manipulating the Far Realm. It is 1-A. Plain and simple.

No, it is not the potency. It is the effect. Unless you are insinuating that all BFR is the same, you are wrong. If you are insinuating that, you are wrong twice. Qawsed explained it very nicely- it cuts out a space around you and places it inside a Far Realm creature's stomach to be digested. Unless Gate of Skye is doing something very similar, this is just another in a long line of irrelevant details.

Uhhhh no it was not explained when I asked directly if you needed 1-A Resistance to resist the attack I was prompted to "If Potency is a factor" by the very same person after which I asked how would we determine it's a factor and was told were waiting on someone.

And that's LITERALLY what I'm getting at not all BFR is the same earlier we used Medea as an example but that's more Akin to directly teleporting someone rather than creating a portal and said portal sucking you into another location

"He opens a hole to the stomach of a Far Realm entity and it sucks you in."

Hence why I talked about Gate of Skye which quite LITERALLY creates a portal and said portal sucks you into another place because YES not all BFR is the same lol

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

She was 4-D even in the first key, no?

All servants have 4D stuff by default. You can check it on the servant physiology page

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Better than 1/5. You clearly haven't been paying attention.

What are the casting times?? is it instantaneous?? Can he do it whilst engaged in CQC?? Is there any prep that's required?? Cause second Key Raikou has this thing called the Curse of annihilation which basically bloodlusts her by default so the moment it gets under way she'll try to murderfy him as quickly as possible so these are gonna be important details

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Good God. I am on mobile but will still try to answer the things that could be answered by simply reading.

1. Yes. I am aware she is stronger in her second key. It was specifically chosen because it was realized she could not contend with Charon in her first key. However, she is 4-D in her first key, whereas Thanos is not. How the hell did they have a fair match?

2. I have reiterated over and over the potency of the BFR. You have repeatedly either ignored it or relied on getting an irrelevant answer from an irrelevant staff member to stave off this reality.

The hole isn't a portal, though. The way Qawsed explains it, it just cuts out the hole. The Far Realm encompasses reality- we're essentially in a bubble. This would remove the part of the bubble you inhabit. I don't see how you can understand that and say "ah well verse equalization ig". Either she resists or she doesn't, this new point is solely wasting time.

3. I am aware that all Servants have 4-D stuff per the wiki. That was, in fact, my point.

4. Say wish -> Wish happens. "I wish to cast spell". He can avoid her until then. He has an intellect that rivals gods and can teleport/travel between dimensions. Her bloodlust is noted but almost certainly not going to stop the wish.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Good God. I am on mobile but will still try to answer the things that could be answered by simply reading.

1. Yes. I am aware she is stronger in her second key. It was specifically chosen because it was realized she could not contend with Charon in her first key. However, she is 4-D in her first key, whereas Thanos is not. How the hell did they have a fair match?

Old probably, and most likely outdated given the fact we no longer give mystery via verse equalization which caused a lot of servant matches to become invalid

 

[Harith0cell]

Old probably, and most likely outdated given the fact we no longer give mystery via verse equalization which caused a lot of servant matches to become invalid

So match gonna get remove then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Which bit are you referring to? Assuming it's the match, then typically matches get removed by default unless someone steps in. I'm wondering why that didn't happen if this is accurate.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yes that Thanos match one is outdated, the reason why it wasn't removed because we are the lazy bastard lel

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Old probably, and most likely outdated given the fact we no longer give mystery via verse equalization which caused a lot of servant matches to become invalid

Basically make Nasuverse unusable 1000% for the matches

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright then. Ought to get to removin' those either way, but I can hardly fault lethargy.

Back to this match. Something something Charon has 1-A BFR that I totally forgot about at the outset of this match, amongst other less direct 1-A shit.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Good God. I am on mobile but will still try to answer the things that could be answered by simply reading.

1. Yes. I am aware she is stronger in her second key. It was specifically chosen because it was realized she could not contend with Charon in her first key. However, she is 4-D in her first key, whereas Thanos is not. How the hell did they have a fair match?

2. I have reiterated over and over the potency of the BFR. You have repeatedly either ignored it or relied on getting an irrelevant answer from an irrelevant staff member to stave off this reality.

The hole isn't a portal, though. The way Qawsed explains it, it just cuts out the hole. The Far Realm encompasses reality- we're essentially in a bubble. This would remove the part of the bubble you inhabit. I don't see how you can understand that and say "ah well verse equalization ig". Either she resists or she doesn't, this new point is solely wasting time.

3. I am aware that all Servants have 4-D stuff per the wiki. That was, in fact, my point.

4. Say wish -> Wish happens. "I wish to cast spell". He can avoid her until then. He has an intellect that rivals gods and can teleport/travel between dimensions. Her bloodlust is noted but almost certainly not going to stop the wish.

*Sigh tell that to your fellow supporter then. I asked the question directly and was given that answer. If they went and asked "Irrelevant staff" to confirm some things that's what they decided not me.

And I'll assume that he has interdimensional range on that right?? as in he can cast a spell from dimension B that affects someone in dimension A?? What's the range on his Teleportation is it short distances?? "Teleportation without error" doesn't really specify and were already at the river so idk if world recall will do too much.

Also can his Dimensional travel bypass sealing? Cause I just remembered that second key Raikou has her stage of carnage which is basically a thing where she encases her opponent in a Reality Marble like space which prevents escape via Teleportation/Creating a portal then dipping etc until the winner is decided.....so if Charon got stuck in there would his Dimensional travel/world recall still work??

 

[Qawsedf234]

What are the chances of Charon using a 1-A BFR? from the start of the debate it seemed that it was an ability that wasn't even in his character. You guys say that River Strix is more likely to be used in battle.

The sole reason he'd ever use it is if he's going against her second key. The reason most people don't cast Far Realm spells is the potential risk of corruption, madness or something from the otherside coming through.

Charon against the first key, while it's a difficult fight is still winnable to him with his normal toolset. The second key combined with prior knowledge means he knows he just cannot win without going with the nuclear option. If he doesn't have prior knowledge I don't see him uses it either, since it means that he wouldn't know who he's fighting and likely wouldn't have time to resort to such a move.

what's stopping Raikou (Gozu Tennou key) from one-shoting him via conceptual attacks and abundant negation stuff?

If he doesn't use the spell or if she can bounce off the boundry gate the he basically has no other win conditions from my understanding.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And I'll assume that he has interdimensional range on that right?

Certain spells have interdimensional range.

What's the range on his Teleportation is it short distances?

Teleportation has no range limits. It's just based on either seals or knowing the location.

so if Charon got stuck in there would his Dimensional travel/world recall still work??

It may prevent Gates but it wouldn't stop the finger. Theoretically he would also be able to cancel it out with an anti-magic field but I don't know if he can cast that freely or not.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Certain spells have interdimensional range.

Teleportation has no range limits. It's just based on either seals or knowing the location.


It may prevent Gates but it wouldn't stop the finger. Theoretically he would also be able to cancel it out with an anti-magic field but I don't know if he can cast that freely or not.

Spells including the one that opens a gate to a 1-A place yes?? Cool then

So if he got encased inside the Reality Marble then he may not be able to use it freely??

What's the "Finger"?? Also how does Anti-Magic area work?? Reality Marbles are a little different from typical Magecraft they operate on something known as the world egg theory and in layman's terms switch out current reality with their own inner reality overwriting the space itself rather than creating a boundary using magic that separates space like Bounded fields do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Spells including the one that opens a gate to a 1-A place yes?? Cool then

Well, it would have to. It's hard to open a 1-A portal if you don't have 1-A range.

So if he got encased inside the Reality Marble then he may not be able to use it freely??

I don't see how the marble negates the opening of the gate. It's a 1-A gateway.

What's the "Finger"??

The spell we're talking about.

Also how does Anti-Magic area work??

Everything magical within an area is negated or completely suppressed. Magic is canceled, artifacts don't work, constructs are deactivated, etc.

reality overwriting the space itself rather than creating a boundary using magic

If it works based off of mana or a magical effect, it would count as a magical ability under an anti-magic field. Dragons can't use breath attacks within one for example, since even that counts as magic.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Well, it would have to. It's hard to open a 1-A portal if you don't have 1-A range.

Makes sense, although it sounds a little off

I don't see how the marble negates the opening of the gate. It's a 1-A gateway.

I was talking about the Teleportation cause you said it depends on if he knows the place.

Everything magical within an area is negated or completely suppressed. Magic is canceled, artifacts don't work, constructs are deactivated, etc.


If it works based off of mana or a magical effect, it would count as a magical ability under an anti-magic field. Dragons can't use breath attacks within one for example, since even that counts as magic.

Yeah. Reality Marbles themselves aren't made of magic which why I drew the comparison with Bounded Fields cause those are things that are made up of magic. they do however, rely on Mana of the mage casting it to maintain themselves although this is mostly due to the "World" attempting to erase the Spatial abnormality. would that count??

 

[Qawsedf234]

I was talking about the Teleportation cause you said it depends on if he knows the place

Teleport without error or Greater Teleportation just requires you vaguely know where you're going. Normal teleport requires you to know the place since you can teleport yourself into a rock.

would that count?

Anti-Magic Field negates supernatural abilities like Dragon Breath, a golem existence, ghosts and the like. It being abnormal would make it negatable. Even stuff like psionics are negated in the field and they operate on an alien structure compared to D&D magic.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Teleport without error or Greater Teleportation just requires you vaguely know where you're going. Normal teleport requires you to know the place since you can teleport yourself into a rock.

Cool and can these bypass being encased in a space that prevents teleporting outside of it??

Anti-Magic Field negates supernatural abilities like Dragon Breath, a golem existence, ghosts and the like. It being abnormal would make it negatable. Even stuff like psionics are negated in the field and they operate on an alien structure compared to D&D magic.

All of these seem to be like "discharge" abilities if I can say that, so let me ask in another way you said it can nullify things like Dragon breath right?? But the dragon using it's breath does their Mana get sealed or taken away?? Is it they can still cast the spells but because they rely on magic to take effect or are made up of magic or something similar they get nullified or he takes away the the mana they use to create the effects??

 

[Qawsedf234]

Cool and can these bypass being encased in a space that prevents teleporting outside of it??

Probably not unless Charon can force himself through. But like I said if the Finger spell doesn't work he has no other real win conditions so it working or not doesn't really matter.

But the dragon using it's breath does their Mana get sealed or taken away?

They can't use any magic or supernatural ability. All they can do is physical attacks.

made up of magic or something similar they get nullified

If your summoned or composed of something you blink out of existence as long as the field overlaps you, then blink back into existence when the field leaves the area.

he takes away the the mana they use to create the effects??

It doesn't take away Mana, it just makes it not exist in that space anymore.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Probably not unless Charon can force himself through. But like I said if the Finger spell doesn't work he has no other real win conditions so it working or not doesn't really matter.

No no I was just wondering because he'd need those to avoid Raikou long enough to use it. As Mr Bambu said he can use those to avoid her long enough to use Wish to active the finger spell, but if she restricts the range of his Teleportation and Dimensional travel. then she could probably kill him fast enough Given that she can amp herself to be 4-6× Stronger and Faster than normal and then shaft him with her Gozu Tennou stuff.

Ah and also you said he may not be able to use it freely what's the reason for that??

 

[Qawsedf234]

As Mr Bambu said he can use those to avoid her long enough to use Wish to active the finger spell, but if she restricts the range of his Teleportation and Dimensional travel

He just needs to say or think "I wish to cast this spell" and point at her. Like its not a ritual or anything, since he has it as a Daily Power.

Given that she can amp herself to be 4-6× Stronger and Faster than normal and then shaft him with her Gozu Tennou stuff.

By the time she does that he has pointed his finger at her and she gets sucked into a Far Realm monster

Ah and also you said he may not be able to use it freely what's the reason for that??

Because to use Anti-Magic Field he'll have to use Wish for that, since Charon does not possess natural Wizard/Cleric spellcasting, but spell-like abilities.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

He just needs to say or think "I wish to cast this spell" and point at her. Like its not a ritual or anything, since he has it as a Daily Power.

Yeah I'm aware, never implied it was some long ritual Mr Bambu already explained the simplicity.

By the time she does that he has pointed his finger at her and she gets sucked into a Far Realm monster

The amps are pretty much instantaneous same with the deployment of the RM, in the case of Mystery Killer its automatic she doesn't even have to do a thing. So being 4-6× would probably let her Blitz. But that's just my opinion.

Because to use Anti-Magic Field he'll have to use Wish for that, since Charon does not possess natural Wizard/Cleric spellcasting, but spell-like abilities.

Ah I see.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So being 4-6× would probably let her Blitz

What exactly is she being scaled to? I'm trying to find a Fate speed calc that's Rel or FTL and I cannot find anything.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

What exactly is she being scaled to? I'm trying to find a Fate speed calc that's Rel or FTL and I cannot find anything.

Ah Calcs are being worked on the thread to get them to Those speeds only just got accepted. Her Rel+ is anywhere from 90-99% Based on The Dioscuri and Her FTL for now would be baseline at 1× for now as theres two Calcs currently being discussed on one of which puts her at 3× and another which is based on Musashi intercepting a light speed attack. However those are simply being discussed so baseline FTL is the safer option

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah Calcs are being worked on the thread to get them to Those speeds only just got accepted. Her Rel+ is anywhere from 90-99% Based on The Dioscuri and Her FTL for now would be baseline at 1× for now as theres two Calcs currently being discussed on one of which puts her at 3× and another which is based on Musashi intercepting a light speed attack. However those are simply being discussed so baseline FTL is the safer option

In that case, she is not allowed to use speed amps going by the rules

Per default the following rules and assumptions will be taken if a match takes place in a speed equalized setting:

• The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
  • Speed Amplification techniques are assumed to grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.
• Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
  • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
  • Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against not-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.
  • While time stop, which could be viewed as an infinite speed amplification, is assumed to work even on characters that would usually bypass it via speed, those matches can likewise not be added.

Charon scales to the following values

• 2x lightspeed
• 3x-11.66x lightspeed

Her speed amp would be banned, since without speed equalization Charon would be able to handle it with his minor speed advantage.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

In that case, she is not allowed to use speed amps going by the rules

Charon scales to the following values

• 2x lightspeed
• 3x-11.66x lightspeed

Her speed amp would be banned, since without speed equalization Charon would be able to handle it with his minor speed advantage.

Ah I see. Which ends were accepted for the second set of Calcs? if the high and Mid ends were accepted then I see how this applies but if we're talking the low ends then she'd probably still Blitz also if he Scales to 11.66.c how come he isn't FTL+??

Cause the Mash calc was pretty much accepted it's just that were looking to get the Musashi calc because it relates better to the evidence that was used in the second thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. Which ends were accepted for the second set of Calcs?

Going by DMUA's comments the higher end.

if he Scales to 11.66.c how come he isn't FTL+??

I don't know why exactly. Even the speed calc section notes it should be used with the other figure

• Calculation for characters avoiding or dodging close ranged light spells; Relativistic to FTL. NOTE: This calculation is the current calc for all creatures above CR 9
• Calculation for characters avoiding intersellar beams; FTL to FTL+. NOTE: This calculation is to be used with the above due to scaling issues that can come with some 4e attacks

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Going by DMUA's comments the higher end.

I don't know why exactly. Even the speed calc section notes it should be used with the other figure

Hmmm I see that's fine. Looks like some DnD pages need work, and you're certain that him only scaling to Rel+ 0.724.c and FTL 2× and not FTL to FTL+ on his profile wasn't deliberate but was actually just a mishap on the page or someone not applying the edits proper??

 

[Qawsedf234]

but was actually just a mishap on the page or someone not applying the edits proper?

I believe it was just not applying the edits; we went over it here.

Rel+ 0.724.c and FTL 2× and not FTL to FTL+ on his profile

It should be Rel+ (0.724c) with FTL+ reactions (11.67c). Since you only get FTL for general speed if you have evasion or a similar feat.

EDIT: Still, if its not on the profile it would be improper to argue for its existence. Still a 3x amp he could probably deal with without equalized speed, the 6x amp would be harder to deal with but it still isn't active from the start which gives him movement time for stuff. Speed equalized the 6x amp is more questionable for usability.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I believe it was just not applying the edits; we went over it here.

It should be Rel+ (0.724c) with FTL+ reactions (11.67c). Since you only get FTL for general speed if you have evasion or a similar feat.

Ah I see fair enough. SO even if she uses her Amps to blitz the match can't be added. That kinda blows. Well then is this thread even worth it at this point?? Cause even if Raikou wins she doesn't get it added cause of the rules.

As she absolutely would use her Amps in her second key it would be out of charchter for her not to use them since she's basically Bloodlusted all the time thanks to the curse of annihilation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah I see fair enough.

Like I said with the edit, it would be unfair to give him that speed at the moment. Since he didn't have it for the previous arguments.

Though even without the slightly greater speed he would be able to deal with the 3x and maybe 6x speed increase without equalized speed, or at least last long enough to do the finger thing.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

EDIT: Still, if its not on the profile it would be improper to argue for its existence. Still a 3x amp he could probably deal with without equalized speed, the 6x amp would be harder to deal with but it still isn't active from the start which gives him movement time for stuff. Speed equalized the 6x amp is more questionable for usability.

Just saw this was edited. And the Minimum is 4× because Mystery Killer is comparable to her other amp which is a 3× Multiplier

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Like I said with the edit, it would be unfair to give him that speed at the moment. Since he didn't have it for the previous arguments.

Though even without the slightly greater speed he would be able to deal with the 3x and maybe 6x speed increase without equalized speed, or at least last long enough to do the finger thing.

Probably 3× would be okay seeing as how he Scales to 2.c but that's only one amp 6× is the more accurate one going of the actual lore cause it could probably be higher than that given that Charon is a Mystical/Magical being thats billions of years old. Which would give MK more than it's normal amp. Cause Mystery=Age in most cases in the Nasuverse so it probably would be higher than its baseline 3× amp

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I really, really doubt a speed amp would stop a Wish.

Also, I was under the impression we didn't verse equalize Mystery. Why are we giving Charon Mystery stuff?

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I really, really doubt a speed amp would stop a Wish.

Also, I was under the impression we didn't verse equalize Mystery. Why are we giving Charon Mystery stuff?

In the case of Raikou's Mystery Killer(Mystic Killer) it basically amps her stats against supernatural/mysterious beings/entities in general rather than only working against beings who possess Mystery. So it applies to Charon since he's a supernatural being of considerable age and power.

Although it is noted to be particularly effective against those who have Mystery, my earlier statement may have been misleading however so apologies. Also idk I think she could probably Blitz given that she could potentially be more than 3 times faster. Although that's just how I see it.

 

[LazyDaoist]

In the case of Raikou's Mystery Killer(Mystic Killer) it basically amps her stats against supernatural/mysterious beings/entities in general rather than only working against beings who possess Mystery.

supernatural/mysterious beings/entities in general in Raikou's case have Mystery because they're from Nasuverse