Meliodas vs Natsu

[AnonymousBlank]

No one was on his level at the start of series. They were all stronger or weaker.

Twigo was fodder, Gil was fodder, Guila logically should have been fodder but somehow bullied Mel, Ban and Diane at the same time. Then you have Ban but the two just threw each other around and when they decide to have a fight for "real", the just smacked each other around more before Ban just snatched base Mel and the demon side slapped him.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"Back then, even the Goddesses could do nothing but cower, crippled by your presence."

Meliodas effortlessly cutting an Angel in half.

Eliz, can you give examples of the people weakened Mel fought that he would be comparable to?

 

[Golfgan]

@Peter , @Rorepme ( and to a certain extent @Elizhaa)

I didn't know about these CQC Full Counter feats, fair enough (and thank you). However, (putting on pause Natsu's null magic some have brought up) I don't think it dispells my statements that, at CQC, Full Counter is a non-factor. First, I still don't imagine Mel FC most attacks in a heated CQC and his battle against Gil (chapter 6 & 7) you used as argument did little to contradict me (he doesn't FC half of Gil's attacks; only one). More importantly, by design, you can only CQC Full Counter what you could've dodged or guarded anyway (because it requires the same or more amount of movements than dodging).

The only advantage of Full Counter is inflicting x2 damage to the opponent. If (like against Natsu's fire resistance) the damage part is taken away, CQC Full Counter is nothing more than a guard or dodge with more wasteful and more restrictive movements. Saying he Full Counters (most of / all) Natsu's attacks is like saying he dodges them all. No, speed is equal. Natsu has also shown to guard and dodge attacks, yet no one is saying Natsu evading or blocking attacks is an important factor in a match. My second statement was CQC Full Counter may negate the Fire around the punch but the punch still needs to be blocked, evaded or taken in the face. Again looking at the (probably retconned?) Twigo stuff (look at both page 50 then 51), he dodges the attack and after uses Counter. Gil's case (look also at the next page), Counter is also used after the physical attack landed (it's ambiguous whether he dodged and endured the attack). By the way, Estarossa shows similar pattern of FCing evaded (or while evading) attacks (but that's a subject for another time).


To conclude: if the opponent resist the reflected damage, at best, CQC Full Counter is a more wasteful dodge, at worst, still requires you to dodge or take the hit. (though the truly worst case is the one 1997KD argued for)

 

[Peter1129]

Well even if the full counter only reflects the magic I'd be more worried about Natsu trying to punch a sword from somebody who has AP comparable to him. Not to mention since this is True Magic Meliodas he could probably go CQC all the while spamming magic with his other two claws (hands?) on top of summoning Lostvayne clones to reflect any ranged magic attacks from Natsu. So versatility wise Meliodas has Natsu beat pretty badly.

 

[1997KD]

Well even if the full counter only reflects the magic I'd be more worried about Natsu trying to punch a sword from somebody who has AP comparable to him. Not to mention since this is True Magic Meliodas he could probably go CQC all the while spamming magic with his other two claws (hands?) on top of summoning Lostvayne clones to reflect any ranged magic attacks from Natsu. So versatility wise Meliodas has Natsu beat pretty badly.

Did meliodas ever use full counter/vanish counter on a attack stronger than him? The only thing mel have is fc and its not going to help, he can't spam fc he need to complete who stance to reflect an attack(like how chandler didn't able to do fc twice)

 

[1997KD]

Like chandler mel can't spam fc [1] [2] [3] And finally for ap gap, his ap is 4.2 teratons.and iirc mel ap is just 1 teratons.

 

[Peter1129]

Full Counter yes. He used it on 50% Demon King while he was just a bunch of emotions in Purgatory. And Emotions Meliodas is even weaker than Pre-Purgatory Ban who is merely 7-B.

Counter Vanish no. He has only used it once against Cain who is weaker than him.

He has the Lostvayne clones to reflect. That's the whole point of Lostvayne being compatible for him. The clones can act on their own and reflect magic for him.

 

[Peter1129]

As I said before Natsu having an AP advantage is debatable. Since their AP are as followed.

Seven Flames Fire Natsu defeated Post-SBT Absorption Human Acnologia who is at least twice as strong as his original Human Form which is stronger than Base Zeref. Base Zeref is stronger than Dark Form August who is in turn stronger than Dragon Irene who is 2.1 Teratons.

True Magic Meliodas is stated to be comparable to Demon King not sure 50% or 100% but we're assuming 50% for now though he might become comparable to Full Power Demon King Zeldris in the future chapters. 50% Demon King is much stronger than Post-Purgatory Demon Mark Meliodas who is at least over 2x stronger than Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas. Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas was easily beating Demon King Zeldris. Demon King Zeldris is stated to be somewhat comparable to Demon King Meliodas who is capable of effortlessly overpowering both True Wings King and Afternoon Mael at the same time. Afternoon Mael was able to effortlessly one shot Original Demon who had powered up with Crisis to the point where he could overpower True Body Ludoshel who is baseline Low 6-B.

So

SFFM Natsu > Post-SBT Absorption Human Form Acnologia 2x> Human Form Acnologia > Base Zeref > Dark Form August > Dragon Form Irene = 2.1 Teraton

True Magic Meliodas ~ 50% Demon King >> Post-Purgatory Demon Mark Meliodas 2x> Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas >> Demon King Zeldris >> Afternoon Mael >>> Original Demon w/ Crisis > True Body Ludoshel = Baseline Low 6-B (1 Teraton)

 

[Captain_Torch]

So

SFFM Natsu > Post-SBT Absorption Human Form Acnologia 2x> Human Form Acnologia > Base Zeref > Dark Form August > Dragon Form Irene = 2.1 Teraton

True Magic Meliodas ~ 50% Demon King >> Post-Purgatory Demon Mark Meliodas 2x> Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas >> Demon King Zeldris >> Afternoon Mael >>> Original Demon w/ Crisis > True Body Ludoshel = Baseline Low 6-B (1 Teraton)

SFFM Natsu >= RoT Human Acnologia = 4.2 teratons >> base Zeref > Dark Form August > Dragon form Irene = 2.1 teratons

True Magic Meliodas ~ 50% Demon King > Post-Purgatory Demon Mark Meliodas >= Post-Purgatory base Meliodas >= Demon King Zeldris > Afternoon Mael >> Original Demon w/Crisis >= True Body Ludoshel = Baseline Low 6-B (1 Teraton)

Natsu definetly has a noticeable AP advantage here. Also, was the 2x multiplier for Meliodas' demon mark ever accepted?

 

[Peter1129]

Why did you change the scaling chain? Demon Mark Meliodas is far more powerful than Base Meliodas. Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas was also beating Demon King Zeldris.

The Demon Mark is much more than a 2x multiplier. It's also stated in series to multiply the users power. The 2x is just for the sake of low balling since it doesn't have a set multiplier.

Literally the first instance of Meliodas using the Demon Mark on combat was him stomping someone who is twice as strong as his Base. And this was his weakest Demon Mark the Demon Mark he used in his Sealed state. All his other Demon Marks have a far larger

How does Natsu have a noticeable AP advantage? You changed the scaling chain to make it seem like Natsu has the advantage in AP even though their AP are probably similar to each other based on their real scaling chain.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

mfw when Natsu vs Meliodas gets tons of action but then stuff like this happens

 

[Captain_Torch]

<snip>

I changed the scaling chain because your scaling chain noticeably inflated Meliodas's strength.

 

[Schnee_One]

Because.......?

 

[Peter1129]

How?

You said Demon Mark Meliodas is only stronger than or equal to Base Meliodas who is stronger than or equal to DK Zeldris which is completely wrong based on what the Demon Mark does over the course of the entire series and his feats.

Post-Purgatory Demon Mark Meliodas stomped Demon King Zeldris who had started to regain his power. This very same DK Zeldris was able to no sell attacks and easily beat up Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas. Post-Purgatory Base Meliodas was also easily beating DK Zeldris before he started to regain his powers.

Afternoon Mael causally one shotted Original Demon while the day goes on and he gets weaker overtime. Original Demon was able to overpower True Body Ludoshel and he was still getting stronger because he was passively destroying his body with Merlin even stating he was powering up at a very fast pace. So at this point he is definitely not just stronger than or equal to Ludoshel he is solidly stronger by a quite a bit.

 

[Elizhaa]

Oh, I know where the AP gaps come from Natsu. The scaling come from Mercuphobia: (Even when at half power, he is superior to Dragon Irene, so when using full power, he should be twice as strong. The God Dragons have each been stated to be comparable to Acnologia)

Honestly, @DragonEmperor23, I don't know any of case where Meliodas thought characters comparable to him. I am fairly suprised that Guila was just rated at Likely 7-B as she fought Melioda, Ban, and Diane together. I am think she got beat easily by King, though.

 

[Peter1129]

@Elizhaa Guila was shown to be weaker than Gilthunder by quite a bit as the electric currents from his lightning attacks were able to injure her.

And all the Sins were holding back during the most of the first arc. They never got serious until the end of the arc. We even see that after Meliodas got serious he effortlessly killed 2nd Form Dale who is even stronger than Post-Training Gilthunder.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Peter1129, I guess you are right.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Peter

Alright, fair enough on the Demon Mark Mel & Afternoon Mael points.

Still, putting ">>" on every comparison of the scaling chain does seem kind off inflated. That is the reason why I edited it, though I admit that it doesn't really matter much in the long run.

 

[Peter1129]

> means they are just stronger.

>> means they are far stronger to the point where they can easily beat them essentially stomps.

>>> means they can one shot them.

Natsu's scaling chain only has > because there are only statements about them being stronger rather than on screen stomps or one shots without outside help.

Nanatsu no Taizai is just that series where there is never a fair fight. It's either this side stomps or that side stomps there are no in between whatsoever.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's far better to simply have a > and state by how much

Like if a chain goes A>B>C you can state

A (One Shotted)>B (Easily Defeated)>C (Casual 21 Gigatons)

For example

 

[Peter1129]

Huh never thought of doing it that way. Most scaling chains I've seen like Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei just uses a huge number of > to show how much more powerful they are on the scaling chain.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Peter1129, by your ">" meaning, SFFM Natsu >>> RoT Human Acnologia because of this Natsu oneshots Acnologia.

 

[Peter1129]

To be fair Natsu one shot Acnologia who couldn't move or defend himself unlike say Afternoon Mael who straight up one shot a powered up Original Demon who was trying to swallow his magic sun with his darkness head on.

 

[Schnee_One]

Huh never thought of doing it that way. Most scaling chains I've seen like Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei just uses a huge number of > to show how much more powerful they are on the scaling chain.

Then I need to bring this up to them.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Huh never thought of doing it that way. Most scaling chains I've seen like Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei just uses a huge number of > to show how much more powerful they are on the scaling chain.

Tbh those >'s never really made me understand how much stronger each character was than the last. It just seemed like they were spamming the button for the sake of it. Like, what's even the difference between >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>?

 

[Elizhaa]

Huh never thought of doing it that way. Most scaling chains I've seen like Digimon and Shin Megami Tensei just uses a huge number of > to show how much more powerful they are on the scaling chain.

To be fair, at those higher tiers, the AP Gap can essential be highly unquantifiable or even infinite.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

@Peter1129, by your ">" meaning, SFFM Natsu >>> RoT Human Acnologia because of this Natsu oneshots Acnologia.

While going all out with his strongest attack in the mode against a nerfed Acnologia. 7DS mode wasn't even doing much to Acno to begin with and Acnologia was still fodderizing him. That enitre fight reeked of PIS.

 

[Siegfried10]

PIS and CIS. The DS should have got one shotted when the fight started, like Serena. But they are the good guys, so...

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Prince

7FDM wasn't doing anything and got fodderized by Acno? What manga were you reading? Wendy enchanted Natsu with it, he threw a punch, one shot Acno, the end. Absolutely nothing else happened with that mode so I dunno what you are on about.

7FDM >>> ROT Acno > Dragon Acno >= FH Zeref >>> Zeref > Dark August > Dragon Irene = 2.1 teratons

PIS them not dying immediately may be, but Acno getting one shot is not.

 

[Peter1129]

Pretty sure Natsu only managed to one shot him because he was immobilized by Fairy Sphere and couldn't fight back because he lost his other arm. Before that Acnologia was quite confident he could take on SFFM Natsu.

Also when did FH Zeref one shot a Base Zeref Tier Character?

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Natsu quite literally states that even with the mode he can't win. Natsu needed his strongest attack while being enchanted by Wendy to one shot Acnologia. A Acnologia who was weakened due to the injury Igneel gave him. You're totally overestimating Natsu in this form, the dude literally couldn't do anything against Acnologia.

 

[1997KD]

@seigfried They didn't get once shotted because acno plan to seal him, that's why other than Natsu no ds scale to acnologia.

And y'all need a crt to clarify meliodas current tier, don't discuss that here

 

[Peter1129]

We don't need a crt it's already on Meliodas' Profile. We are clarifying the AP here since some people didn't believe the scaling chain Meliodas has was this big.

 

[1997KD]

Acnologia who was weakened due to the injury Igneel gave him.

Lol wut? That thing is never mention or shown in manga that acnologia is weaken, hell, even when acno comes and try to attack erza, erza states that his magic power is far greater then the last time the fought(pre sbt)

 

[1997KD]

Also when did FH Zeref one shot a Base Zeref Tier Character?

Df natsu=base zeref and fh zeref one shot him

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

@1997


Read my argument instead of using Dragon Acnologia as an example. This applies to ROT Human Acnologia. That's made clear whenever Acnologia literally had to halt himself unwilling resulting in him being unable to move.

 

[Peter1129]

But FH Zeref didn't one shot DF Natsu he one shot Base Natsu. In chapter 533 after DF Natsu used the Fire Dragon King's Demolishing Strike he reverted back to base form as he didn't have scales on his face anymore. After that he got one shot by FH Zeref who had just reversed time.

 

[Drite77]

Man, i like when my threads have almost 200 post after less than a day

 

[1997KD]

@1997 Read my argument instead of using Dragon Acnologia as an example. This applies to ROT Human Acnologia. That's made clear whenever Acnologia literally had to halt himself unwilling resulting in him being unable to move.

You said natsu claim he can't defeat acnologia in 7fdm, that no true. He never said that this

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Natsu states, and I quote "You cant end this huh? Not on your own." To be that's pretty blatant that Natsu wouldn't be able to defeat Acnologia without the aid of Lucy sealing Dragon Acnologia. And again, the enitre fight Natsu couldn't even damage Acnologia.