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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades
- Thread starter Eficiente
- Start date
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What would that even rate him?Eficiente said:
Those kilometers are only a few kilometers wide, aren't they?
That's probably a Tier 8 feat at max.
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That doesn't address my particular case for Master Hand being 4-C to 3-A.
The argument Saikou is addressing assumes that "source of all creation in the universe" = creating the universe, and powerscales him to trophies with statements referring solely to the context of their own individual verses. I'm going purely by Master Hand's statement in the trophy and the backgrounds of the stages, and I'm not arguing that he created the universe as a whole, just everything in it.
It also doesn't address the points Eficiente brought up about Master Hand creating stages in Smash 64's intro, either.
My initial point still stands as well; a character being able to lose to their creations doesn't necessarily contradict the fact that they're a creator. You can create characters you don't scale to. It's different with things like stars or planets as you have to create enough energy to necessitate their GBE.
The argument Saikou is addressing assumes that "source of all creation in the universe" = creating the universe, and powerscales him to trophies with statements referring solely to the context of their own individual verses. I'm going purely by Master Hand's statement in the trophy and the backgrounds of the stages, and I'm not arguing that he created the universe as a whole, just everything in it.
It also doesn't address the points Eficiente brought up about Master Hand creating stages in Smash 64's intro, either.
My initial point still stands as well; a character being able to lose to their creations doesn't necessarily contradict the fact that they're a creator. You can create characters you don't scale to. It's different with things like stars or planets as you have to create enough energy to necessitate their GBE.
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We just established why they aren't Low 2-C.Eficiente said:
But Master Hand being "At least 4-A, possibly 3-C" is probably fine.
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I'm not okay with Low 2-C. For reasons stated before, the Low 2-C statements coming from the Smash creation trio don't scale to Master Hand.Eficiente said:
I am, however, okay with 4-A at minimum. And last time I checked I'm not sure if the galaxy-like thing in the background of Final Destination in Ultimate is really a galaxy. Let me take a look.
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The Smash trophy mentioned this feat happening in the Pokemon universe because the trophy is talking about the Pokemon version of the character, not the Smash version of the character. And there is a difference, as I have proved with my big post above.Eficiente said:
See here:
"Trophy descriptions don't really mean all that much since they usually specify the version of the character they mean, the Creation Trio trophies in both Smash 4 and Brawl list these characters as the Sinnoh versions of the characters (Sinnoh doesn't exist in Smash world, no reason to believe it does)...
...And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash."
So while the feat is legitimate, but the feat doesn't actually scale to Master Hand.
This is like my third time posting this info.
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Yeah calling this a galaxy is a bit iffy. It could be a black hole or even a hurricane.
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Clearly not a hurricane unless hurricanes fly.
If it were a black hole the stars behind it would be distorted or not visible.
Where is that from anyway?
If it were a black hole the stars behind it would be distorted or not visible.
Where is that from anyway?
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- Thread starter
- #332
So what? The description of the Smash version of the character targets the Smash version of the character. Everyone is "supposed" to be the real version going by trophy descriptions and lore given by Snake and Palutena, etc. Since when do we ignore information like that?Warren Valion said:
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The trophy descriptions of the Pokemon aren't for the Smash versions, they are talking about the Pokemon characters from Pokemon, not Smash.Eficiente said:
I showed you proof that the series makes a distinction. You're the one ignoring information.
And by your logic, Smash should be 2-B because of the Creation Trio.
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- Thread starter
- #334
Not enough, nor I went "let's ignore Crossovers rules lol". If info establishes something there is no reason to ignore it.
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What are you talking about?Eficiente said:
There is visual proof of a distinction between characters from Smash and from their original series when it comes to trophy entries which prove that the descriptions of the Creation Trio are just explaining who the character is from Pokemon and aren't saying that the Creation Trio did the feat in the Smashverse.
And you are just ignoring that just because? What is your reasoning for ignoring evidence?
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You know Olimar is like the size of a thumbnail, right? Well, he's not in Smash.Eficiente said:
Using conversations that are meant to fourth-wall breaking with tons of references to the original series isn't proof of anything.
There are no feats that put the Smash versions of the Creation Trio anywhere near where they are in Pokemon, and if we are using the trophies as proof of them being Low 2-C, then we should go with the trophy interpretation of these characters.
That being that there is a distinction between the Smash versions and the series they originate from.
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- #338
I am supposed to care about Olimar's size why?
What's established is anyone's canon there, what's not it's not, simple logic that apparently I have to mention. Not by fault if you want to ignore dozens of statements to satisfy your headcanon.
What's established is anyone's canon there, what's not it's not, simple logic that apparently I have to mention. Not by fault if you want to ignore dozens of statements to satisfy your headcanon.
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Just because there are statements talking about the adventures of the characters from their franchises doesn't mean the feats from said franchises scale to these characters.Eficiente said:
If Eldritch Horrors are mentioned in the story, do you immediately assign them the Lovecraftian level of 1-A?
No, you don't, you need proof of it. Same thing in Smash.
Just because its a crossover doesn't mean that the characters scale to feats from the individual franchises.
That would be headcanon.
And again, the Creation Trio feat is a trophy statement, and the trophies have shown the distinction between the Smash versions of the characters and the real versions of them.
Master Hand doesn't scale. It's that simple.
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I guess I'll quote this again:Eficiente said:
...And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash."
This proves that there is a distinction between the trophies ^ This proves my point.
I don't know what you mean by, "does the same with less insufficient evidence". This doesn't really string together any coherent verbal statement. Can you elaborate, please?
Also, can you please knock it off with the attitude, it is rude and uncalled for.
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I keep repeating myself because you are just not excepting the proof I keep showing you that you are asking for.Eficiente said:
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If you call out for somebody and they ignore you, what do you usually do?Eficiente said:
You say their name again, but louder until they hear you.
The same applies here.
You ask for proof, and I showed you proof.
You then ignored the proof, said I was spewing bullshit headcanon, and when I called you out your facetiousness, you complained that I was repeating myself over and over again.
My repeating myself is because you keep asking for proof even though I have already given it to you.
Just like how one would repeat the name of the person that they were calling for until said person heard him/her. I was constantly showing you the proof that you kept on asking for.
That's a reasonable response that makes sense.
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You were ignoring the proof by calling it insufficient.Eficiente said:
My repetition was used as a way to reiterate my stance as a statement to say you are wrong, and the evidence is not insufficient.
You can't say that there is no proof that there is a distinction between the original version of the character and the Smash version when I literally am showing proof of said distinction within the series.
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@Warren
From which games comes those two descriptions?
Also, could you find some from other characters as well?
Because seeing Dialga's... It doesn't make any distinction at all.
From which games comes those two descriptions?
Also, could you find some from other characters as well?
Because seeing Dialga's... It doesn't make any distinction at all.
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Also, in the Mario one, there isn't a distinction from the text itself. One trophy talks about the history of the character, the other about mechanical aspects of said character in-gameplay.
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The images are in the pic are very clearly from Melee. Just search up Melee's trophy descriptions, there is plenty with the word Smash written in brackets right next to them. These are the most explicit distinctions and therefore the ones I kept mentioning.
Now you may say, "but things change, it that doesn't necessarily affect other games in the series."
That's not the case, however.
Here's the thing.
Trophies will label what franchise the characters are apart of, they will differentiate whether the version is from Smash or the characters respected franchises.
Here's an example.
Both Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are both stated to be apart of different Pokemon games, the characters and the descriptions are for said Pokemon character from said Pokemon games.
Again, you might ask. "Why would you assume that the symbol is proof of a distinction between Smash canon and other franchise's canon?"
That's because a distinction is shown. With the Final Smash.
Their Final Smash clearly shows that the version of the character that the description applies to is the Smash version of said character, not the one from whatever Pokemon games they hail from.
Now you may say, "but things change, it that doesn't necessarily affect other games in the series."
That's not the case, however.
Here's the thing.
Trophies will label what franchise the characters are apart of, they will differentiate whether the version is from Smash or the characters respected franchises.
Here's an example.
Both Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer are both stated to be apart of different Pokemon games, the characters and the descriptions are for said Pokemon character from said Pokemon games.
Again, you might ask. "Why would you assume that the symbol is proof of a distinction between Smash canon and other franchise's canon?"
That's because a distinction is shown. With the Final Smash.
Their Final Smash clearly shows that the version of the character that the description applies to is the Smash version of said character, not the one from whatever Pokemon games they hail from.
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That's because Smash descriptions talk about the game mechanics of a character or an attack, while the trophies that represent the character from their original franchise talks about the backstory and lore of said character and franchise.LephyrTheRevanchist said:
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And yet only melee show "alternate trophies" for the playable characters. Hmm.
That tag show from where the character/thing showcased originated from. The final smash is entirely a smash thing, so it shows it coming from there.
This doesn't prove a distinction besides gameplay features, imo.
That tag show from where the character/thing showcased originated from. The final smash is entirely a smash thing, so it shows it coming from there.
This doesn't prove a distinction besides gameplay features, imo.
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Funny enough, I wouldn't say that. I would say:Warren Valion said:
"In melee trophies, only the playable character have those brackets, and are used to talk about game features. There is no distinction there, specially when the other games seized to do it."
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While yes, Melee is the only game with duplicates that say Smash in brackets, there is also another thing that only Melee trophies have. It's that it lacks the tag. You can see so here.
The logical explanation as to why Melee versions lack the tag is because they have a bracket and double of the character that differentiates the canon character from the Smash version of said character.
The character doubles and bracket were removed from subsequent Smash games as it is a more neat and concise way of explaining the lore of a character from their game, and because it doesn't clutter the game with unnecessary trophies. Could you imagine how many trophies there would be if there were Smash duplicates? Especially considering that the only thing the Smash versions of the character did was tell you the moveset of the character.
So a change was implemented.
The trophy's tell the backstory of the character from the games for said games, and the final smash will tell of the thing that makes the Smash version of the character unique, the Final Smash.
There is a distinction between characters from their series and from Smash, and it is ludicrous to assume that the feats from the individual series, or statements explaining the lore of the characters from their own games, should be used in scaling Smash characters.
So said feats and statements don't apply to the Smash version of the characters, and we should use feats done by the Smash versions of the characters, not the franchises that the characters hail from.
Just because a character is mentioned to exist in a series, does not mean you scale that character to the original canon. Cthulhu from Cthulhu Saves the World is a good example of this.
The logical explanation as to why Melee versions lack the tag is because they have a bracket and double of the character that differentiates the canon character from the Smash version of said character.
The character doubles and bracket were removed from subsequent Smash games as it is a more neat and concise way of explaining the lore of a character from their game, and because it doesn't clutter the game with unnecessary trophies. Could you imagine how many trophies there would be if there were Smash duplicates? Especially considering that the only thing the Smash versions of the character did was tell you the moveset of the character.
So a change was implemented.
The trophy's tell the backstory of the character from the games for said games, and the final smash will tell of the thing that makes the Smash version of the character unique, the Final Smash.
There is a distinction between characters from their series and from Smash, and it is ludicrous to assume that the feats from the individual series, or statements explaining the lore of the characters from their own games, should be used in scaling Smash characters.
So said feats and statements don't apply to the Smash version of the characters, and we should use feats done by the Smash versions of the characters, not the franchises that the characters hail from.
Just because a character is mentioned to exist in a series, does not mean you scale that character to the original canon. Cthulhu from Cthulhu Saves the World is a good example of this.
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Except we don't use feats from their series to scale them. We use the thing written on the trophies themselves.
Still don't agree there is a distinction. Arguing this will just have us repeating ourselves to infinity, so let's agree to disagree and see what conclusions others arrive to.
And still am neutral. ovo
Still don't agree there is a distinction. Arguing this will just have us repeating ourselves to infinity, so let's agree to disagree and see what conclusions others arrive to.
And still am neutral. ovo
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Now that I think about it, doesn't Smash have a multiverse that's 2-B to 2-A?
Then, if we used the description from the trophy, wouldn't the tiering for the Creation Trio in Smash be 2-B to 2-A?
And wouldn't that be an enormous outlier considering the strongest being in the series, Galeem, only did a 3-A feat?
Then, if we used the description from the trophy, wouldn't the tiering for the Creation Trio in Smash be 2-B to 2-A?
And wouldn't that be an enormous outlier considering the strongest being in the series, Galeem, only did a 3-A feat?
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Now that's another matter entirely. One which I genuinely have no clue.
Although, what are those multiversal statements?
Although, what are those multiversal statements?
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Galeem and Dharkon are Low 2-C for transforming Smash!Arceus into a spirit, and as we see in the intro, you literally need to vaporize said being to turn him into a spirit. And the original Master Hand and Crazy Hand can fight fighters that just defeated Dharkon, so they would scale nonetheless.
About Dialga's feat, I agree with Lephyr.
About Dialga's feat, I agree with Lephyr.
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- #359
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ7EzilotMYArbitraryNumbers said:
I was thinking how Brawl's Final Destination had a more realistic galaxy when I noticed that it had 3.
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Master Hand being 3-B, and Galeem being 3-A would actually be kind of consistent.
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