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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

He should be downgraded then. There a quadrillion different takes on the Cthulhu Mythos as a whole. Scaling from the original is no different than saying Mortal Kombat characters are tier 6 because there are planetary or continental characters in the crossovers.
 
Also, I should mention that literally not one single Palkia trophy mentions him actually creating space, which just puts the "Smash Dialga created time" view in even further doubtful light.

All the trophies state that he has control over space and that he can warp space. None say anything about him creating it.

Literally, all the trophy profiles needed to do was say Dialga created time or that Palkia created space - instead, the wording implies that time already existed when Dialga was born and that Palkia can just warp space.

Arceus's trophy states that he created the "world and the sky", which, while vague, is at least a statement that he created something as opposed to merely, for example, saying that his birth "brought order to the world" (which would be on the same level of "purposefully avoiding saying this" as Dialga's trophy)

I still feel, just as I did months ago, that Master Hand should be downgraded to "At most 3-A"
 
Did y'all miss my big post on how I showed that the descriptions for the trophies in Smash are about the character from their own series and how they don't equate to the Smash character versions?
 
@Warren

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or agreeing with Cal with that, but can I see the blog?
 
Yeah, I read it - makes sense since they differentiate between Smash and the original games' trophies.

But if Master Hand can't scale to the high-end interpretation of Arceus's trophy, he'd need to be rated based off of his own feats.
 
Kepekley23 said:
@Warren
I don't know if you're agreeing with me or agreeing with Cal with that, but can I see the blog?
Click to expand...
I agree that the feat stated is a creation feat, as it is the same feat that gives the Creation Trio their 2-B ratings, as I am under the impression that the trophy is describing the Pokemon iterations of the Creation Trio, not their Smash versions. So the feat doesn't apply to Master Hand or those that scale above him.

The post I posted above has an image of trophies that make the distinction between the character from their individual franchise and the Smash version of said character, proving my point.
 
@Warren

The Creation Trio is 2-B because Palkia created all the parallel universes, not because of their descriptions. Just saiyan.
 
Kepekley23 said:
@Warren
The Creation Trio is 2-B because Palkia created all the parallel universes, not because of their descriptions. Just saiyan.
Click to expand...
The Creation Trio is 2-B because they created the Pokemon multiverse.

Even Dialga's profile mentions the time-flowing feat:

"Multiverse level (Its birth made time begin to flow..."

That's not all there is to it, but it is one of the reasons why Dialga (and those who scale above it) is 2-B.

The Smash trophy mentioned this feat happening in the Pokemon universe because the trophy is talking about the Pokemon version of the character, not the Smash version of the character. And there is a difference, as I have proved with my big post above.

See here:

"Trophy descriptions don't really mean all that much since they usually specify the version of the character they mean, the Creation Trio trophies in both Smash 4 and Brawl list these characters as the Sinnoh versions of the characters (Sinnoh doesn't exist in Smash world, no reason to believe it does)...

...And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.

Mario and smash mario
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash."

So while the feat is legitimate, but the feat doesn't actually scale to Master Hand.
 
We have been through this before. Neither Dialga nor Palkia are 2-B because of their "time flowing" or "space expansion" feats. They are 2-B via scaling to Palkia creating the parallel universes.

The profile only mentions Dialga's feat because that's one of the very, very few feats he actually has.
 
Exactly, we're talking about Low 2-C Smash characters, 2-B Pokemon is completely off topic.
 
Dragopentling said:
wow, now we're just going off topic and trying to question the Poke Gods' 2-B prowess yet again
can we just stick to the main topic here?
Click to expand...
What else is there to discuss?

We've already come to the conclusion that the scaling Master Hand to Low 2-C for "creating the world" should be disregarded due to this post by Saikou:

"I re-state my feelings:

-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A"

AFAIK, people agreed to this mentality. I know I did.

And following that sentiment, I made my post proving that Pokemon's trophy statements don't scale to Master Hand.

So unless you want to contest my point with some proof that I'm wrong, I think the downgrade to 3-A can begin to commence.
 
How does Master Hand scale to Galeem? I don't recall a time where the two fought, and the only time Master Hand is present, he's mindlessly under Galeem's control.
 
ArbitraryNumbers said:
How does Master Hand scale to Galeem? I don't recall a time where he fought him.
Click to expand...
I think everybody that scales under Galeem would be "Unknown, possibly 3-A" for being comparable to Galeem or something.
 
Normally characters would need a reason to be comparable.

I recall that Master Hand and many of his duplicates were mindlessly under Galeem's control, so I don't know if it's reasonable to suggest that he's comparable at all.

My interpretation of his "source of all creation" statement is that all creation in the universe started from him. That means he either created the big band, or created every single individual thing in the universe. The latter would put him at 4-C to 4-A since we see tons of individual stars in the background.

I know it's kind of a stretch, but I thought I'd just put it out there.
 
Warren Valion said:
So unless you want to contest my point with some proof that I'm wrong, I think the downgrade to 3-A can begin to commence.
Click to expand...
If there is anything that we can take from the intro of Smash 64 is that MH can, sometimes, produce battles between characters and create the actual stage of it. As such he upscales to all the playable characters and stuff in stages, including the Poke-gods.
 
Eficiente said:
If there is anything that we can take from the intro of Smash 64 is that MH can, sometimes, produce battles between characters and create the actual stage of it. As such he upscales to all the playable characters and stuff in stages, including the Poke-gods.
Click to expand...
AFAIK, we went with ignoring Smash's metaphoric lore as it is extremely inconsistent.

So I don't think that means anything.
 
I edited my last reply while you guys were typing your respones, so I'll lay out my thoughts again:

The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!

"THE source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe".

This isn't just a statement of him "creating things" and nothing else. He is the source of creation. If someone told you their job was the source of their stress and anxiety, you'd assume that most, if not all of their stress and anxiety came from their job.

Also, notice how it says, THE source, and not just "oh he's a source"? This, to me, implies that he is the single source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe, at least in the grand scheme of things.

All of this in tandem, to me, means that all creation in the universe came from Master Hand, or at least has its roots in him. This means that either:

  • He created the big bang
or

  • He manually created every single individual thing in the universe
The former would be 3-A as it doesn't indicate anything about space-time. The latter would be 4-C to 4-A as he had to create each individual star and celestial body in the universe. We see on multiple stages that stars exist in the Smash universe, and that they're plentiful.

Some of this may seem like a stretch, but I thought I'd just throw it out there anyways.
 
Warren Valion said:
AFAIK, we went with ignoring Smash's metaphoric lore as it is extremely inconsistent.

So I don't think that means anything.
Click to expand...
Melee's intro does something similar, Smash4's puts him as a creator while not specifying what he makes, and Ultimate gives no lore. It is evident that his role isn't something to be ignore, nor is there anything that contradicts this as it was never said to be always how everything works in the verse.
 
IIRC, the thing that contradicts Master Hand being this "Creator Deity" is the fact that he loses to his creations in every single game. Or something to that effect.
 
How the hell is making the stuff in the stage=being a Creator Deity?
 
How does him being capable of losing to his own creations contradict him being a creator? Just because you create a dude doesn't mean you have the statistics of that dude. It's different with stars or planets as you have to generate sufficient amounts of energy to maintain the star's existence.
 
This what I was referring to,

"Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created."
 
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