- 40,459
- 12,940
If you looked at the justification, you'd see that the character is tier 1 for something from the actual mythos.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades
- Thread starter Eficiente
- Start date
- 8,427
- 3,144
Isn't the meaning of "angeled space" spatial-temporal dimensions though?
- 15,332
- 7,563
He should be downgraded then. There a quadrillion different takes on the Cthulhu Mythos as a whole. Scaling from the original is no different than saying Mortal Kombat characters are tier 6 because there are planetary or continental characters in the crossovers.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Also, I should mention that literally not one single Palkia trophy mentions him actually creating space, which just puts the "Smash Dialga created time" view in even further doubtful light.
All the trophies state that he has control over space and that he can warp space. None say anything about him creating it.
Literally, all the trophy profiles needed to do was say Dialga created time or that Palkia created space - instead, the wording implies that time already existed when Dialga was born and that Palkia can just warp space.
Arceus's trophy states that he created the "world and the sky", which, while vague, is at least a statement that he created something as opposed to merely, for example, saying that his birth "brought order to the world" (which would be on the same level of "purposefully avoiding saying this" as Dialga's trophy)
I still feel, just as I did months ago, that Master Hand should be downgraded to "At most 3-A"
All the trophies state that he has control over space and that he can warp space. None say anything about him creating it.
Literally, all the trophy profiles needed to do was say Dialga created time or that Palkia created space - instead, the wording implies that time already existed when Dialga was born and that Palkia can just warp space.
Arceus's trophy states that he created the "world and the sky", which, while vague, is at least a statement that he created something as opposed to merely, for example, saying that his birth "brought order to the world" (which would be on the same level of "purposefully avoiding saying this" as Dialga's trophy)
I still feel, just as I did months ago, that Master Hand should be downgraded to "At most 3-A"
- 8,427
- 3,144
Did y'all miss my big post on how I showed that the descriptions for the trophies in Smash are about the character from their own series and how they don't equate to the Smash character versions?
- 32,358
- 20,298
I didn't, and I very much agree with Warren. Also, comparing it with Cthulhu Saves the World or Dante is a big false equivalency.
- 15,332
- 7,563
@Warren
I don't know if you're agreeing with me or agreeing with Cal with that, but can I see the blog?
I don't know if you're agreeing with me or agreeing with Cal with that, but can I see the blog?
- 32,358
- 20,298
It's not a blog, it's a post.
- 15,332
- 7,563
I read it as "blog post."
- 15,332
- 7,563
Yeah, I read it - makes sense since they differentiate between Smash and the original games' trophies.
But if Master Hand can't scale to the high-end interpretation of Arceus's trophy, he'd need to be rated based off of his own feats.
But if Master Hand can't scale to the high-end interpretation of Arceus's trophy, he'd need to be rated based off of his own feats.
- 8,427
- 3,144
I agree that the feat stated is a creation feat, as it is the same feat that gives the Creation Trio their 2-B ratings, as I am under the impression that the trophy is describing the Pokemon iterations of the Creation Trio, not their Smash versions. So the feat doesn't apply to Master Hand or those that scale above him.Kepekley23 said:
The post I posted above has an image of trophies that make the distinction between the character from their individual franchise and the Smash version of said character, proving my point.
- 15,332
- 7,563
@Warren
The Creation Trio is 2-B because Palkia created all the parallel universes, not because of their descriptions. Just saiyan.
The Creation Trio is 2-B because Palkia created all the parallel universes, not because of their descriptions. Just saiyan.
- 8,427
- 3,144
The Creation Trio is 2-B because they created the Pokemon multiverse.Kepekley23 said:
Even Dialga's profile mentions the time-flowing feat:
"Multiverse level (Its birth made time begin to flow..."
That's not all there is to it, but it is one of the reasons why Dialga (and those who scale above it) is 2-B.
The Smash trophy mentioned this feat happening in the Pokemon universe because the trophy is talking about the Pokemon version of the character, not the Smash version of the character. And there is a difference, as I have proved with my big post above.
See here:
"Trophy descriptions don't really mean all that much since they usually specify the version of the character they mean, the Creation Trio trophies in both Smash 4 and Brawl list these characters as the Sinnoh versions of the characters (Sinnoh doesn't exist in Smash world, no reason to believe it does)...
...And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash."
So while the feat is legitimate, but the feat doesn't actually scale to Master Hand.
- 15,332
- 7,563
We have been through this before. Neither Dialga nor Palkia are 2-B because of their "time flowing" or "space expansion" feats. They are 2-B via scaling to Palkia creating the parallel universes.
The profile only mentions Dialga's feat because that's one of the very, very few feats he actually has.
The profile only mentions Dialga's feat because that's one of the very, very few feats he actually has.
- 8,438
- 3,293
Poor Dialga. Being a time traveling dinosaur isn't as cool as being a space-tearing dragon.
- 15,332
- 7,563
But his feat is stll infinitely superior to his counterpart's feat, ironically.
- 31,372
- 34,119
They both scale from each others feats though; so it's not really relevant.
- 15,332
- 7,563
...Dude...
The joke went way over your head. Way over.
The joke went way over your head. Way over.
- 3,651
- 264
wow, now we're just going off topic and trying to question the Poke Gods' 2-B prowess yet again
can we just stick to the main topic here?
can we just stick to the main topic here?
- 31,372
- 34,119
Exactly, we're talking about Low 2-C Smash characters, 2-B Pokemon is completely off topic.
- 8,427
- 3,144
What else is there to discuss?Dragopentling said:
We've already come to the conclusion that the scaling Master Hand to Low 2-C for "creating the world" should be disregarded due to this post by Saikou:
"I re-state my feelings:
-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.
-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)
-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A"
AFAIK, people agreed to this mentality. I know I did.
And following that sentiment, I made my post proving that Pokemon's trophy statements don't scale to Master Hand.
So unless you want to contest my point with some proof that I'm wrong, I think the downgrade to 3-A can begin to commence.
- 15,332
- 7,563
What is 3-A based on again?
- 8,427
- 3,144
Galeem crushing the universe, but no space-time was mentioned.Kepekley23 said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
Alright.
- 8,427
- 3,144
Yeah, here's the video explaining exactly what happened.
- 4,652
- 1,328
How does Master Hand scale to Galeem? I don't recall a time where the two fought, and the only time Master Hand is present, he's mindlessly under Galeem's control.
- 8,427
- 3,144
I think everybody that scales under Galeem would be "Unknown, possibly 3-A" for being comparable to Galeem or something.ArbitraryNumbers said:
- 4,652
- 1,328
Normally characters would need a reason to be comparable.
I recall that Master Hand and many of his duplicates were mindlessly under Galeem's control, so I don't know if it's reasonable to suggest that he's comparable at all.
My interpretation of his "source of all creation" statement is that all creation in the universe started from him. That means he either created the big band, or created every single individual thing in the universe. The latter would put him at 4-C to 4-A since we see tons of individual stars in the background.
I know it's kind of a stretch, but I thought I'd just put it out there.
I recall that Master Hand and many of his duplicates were mindlessly under Galeem's control, so I don't know if it's reasonable to suggest that he's comparable at all.
My interpretation of his "source of all creation" statement is that all creation in the universe started from him. That means he either created the big band, or created every single individual thing in the universe. The latter would put him at 4-C to 4-A since we see tons of individual stars in the background.
I know it's kind of a stretch, but I thought I'd just put it out there.
- 8,427
- 3,144
Well, then I guess they will be just unknown then.
- 15,441
- 5,031
- Thread starter
- #312
If there is anything that we can take from the intro of Smash 64 is that MH can, sometimes, produce battles between characters and create the actual stage of it. As such he upscales to all the playable characters and stuff in stages, including the Poke-gods.Warren Valion said:
- 8,427
- 3,144
AFAIK, we went with ignoring Smash's metaphoric lore as it is extremely inconsistent.Eficiente said:
So I don't think that means anything.
- 4,652
- 1,328
I edited my last reply while you guys were typing your respones, so I'll lay out my thoughts again:
The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!
"THE source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe".
This isn't just a statement of him "creating things" and nothing else. He is the source of creation. If someone told you their job was the source of their stress and anxiety, you'd assume that most, if not all of their stress and anxiety came from their job.
Also, notice how it says, THE source, and not just "oh he's a source"? This, to me, implies that he is the single source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe, at least in the grand scheme of things.
All of this in tandem, to me, means that all creation in the universe came from Master Hand, or at least has its roots in him. This means that either:
Some of this may seem like a stretch, but I thought I'd just throw it out there anyways.
The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!
"THE source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe".
This isn't just a statement of him "creating things" and nothing else. He is the source of creation. If someone told you their job was the source of their stress and anxiety, you'd assume that most, if not all of their stress and anxiety came from their job.
Also, notice how it says, THE source, and not just "oh he's a source"? This, to me, implies that he is the single source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe, at least in the grand scheme of things.
All of this in tandem, to me, means that all creation in the universe came from Master Hand, or at least has its roots in him. This means that either:
- He created the big bang
- He manually created every single individual thing in the universe
Some of this may seem like a stretch, but I thought I'd just throw it out there anyways.
- 15,441
- 5,031
- Thread starter
- #315
Melee's intro does something similar, Smash4's puts him as a creator while not specifying what he makes, and Ultimate gives no lore. It is evident that his role isn't something to be ignore, nor is there anything that contradicts this as it was never said to be always how everything works in the verse.Warren Valion said:
- 4,652
- 1,328
I don't recall anything contradicting Master Hand being a creator either.
- 8,427
- 3,144
IIRC, the thing that contradicts Master Hand being this "Creator Deity" is the fact that he loses to his creations in every single game. Or something to that effect.
- 4,652
- 1,328
How does him being capable of losing to his own creations contradict him being a creator? Just because you create a dude doesn't mean you have the statistics of that dude. It's different with stars or planets as you have to generate sufficient amounts of energy to maintain the star's existence.
- 8,427
- 3,144
This what I was referring to,
"Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created."
"Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created."
Similar threads
- Locked
