Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

[Eficiente]

I think that Master Hand is obviously 3-A.

How so?

 

[Zeldasmash]

Can you post the part where MH beats 50 Smashers "while holding back"? Because it looks like Marth, Zelda, and Pit are pretty confident in defeating 10 MHs.
Also in Brawl, Tabuu, who is superior to MH, loses to the Smashers.

I think it's mostly because when Master Hand takes on all 50 of them, he does not use his full moveset. He only uses a handful of attacks and still takes on all 50 of them near effortlessly.

So either Master Hand is holding back, or the clone fighters are pure fodder (and considering the Smashers basically have to use spirits to fight some of the more stronger clones, not sure this is true) which would question why Galeem and Dharkon even sent them against Master Hand to begin with.

Also I sure hope everyone is noticing the puns in this thread. XD

 

[Eficiente]

Reestablishing my arguments on the matter, I find that the most logical way to interpret "Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe" is to relate it to what we already know of him, Smash64 and Melee's intros. In something like "Master Hand sometimes creates the battles between the characters as well as the scenario where they take place". This does not mean that he always does that as the characters have life on their own, and this does not mean that he made the universe, which was already there.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Kepekley @Eficiente @Warren Are any of you reading the arguments that I posted?

 

[Eficiente]

I did. I prefer my interpretation, which makes him 3-B (ignoring the CT).

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Kepekley @Eficiente @Warren
Are any of you reading the arguments that I posted?

I have, and I think it makes sense.

lt sticks with the lore saying that Master Hand is the source of creationm, and personally, I have no idea how to tier these characters otherwise.

 

[Eficiente]

Pointing out, again, Crazy Hand statements on the matter. "Where the Master Hand loves to create, its alter ego is impulsive and destructive" Melee, "Seemingly a manifestation of the destructive spirit in direct contrast to Master Hand, who is the manifestation of the creative spirit." Brawl, "The erratic Crazy Hand embodies destruction in the Smash Bros. universe" 4.

We never saw CH destroying anything, by contrast we did saw MH creating something.

 

[Dragopentling]

Crazy Hand is Low 2-C via powerscaling and comparison with Master Hand, that's all

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Sakurai makes it clear that Smash is more about fun than story. So it's only natural that we'd never see an elaborate cutscene showcasing Master Hand and Crazy Hand making and destroying things.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Being the "spirit of creation" or "embodying destruction" mean nothing without feats to back them up. We have no such feats. The only feat is Galeem's and he does it amped in a way that doesn't scale to the cast or his durability.

 

[Eficiente]

@Assalt I agree with that, but what do you think of my interpretation?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

That until we get a more literal/in-depth explanation we can't assume literally everything that causes creation is done by his power, therefore we can't accept that method.

That's my opinion.

 

[Warren_Valion]

What's your interpretation?

 

[Eficiente]

@Warren This one.

@Assalt As it says there, it doesn't mean that he always does that, only sometimes.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I feel like it's a little too much like cherry-picking, tbh.

The tiering of a character should be based on solid foundations, not "something that sometimes is and sometimes isn't."

At best I can see that being a "possibly X tier" rating

That's my look on it.


Anyway, I got to go soon to celebrate the New Year with my family.

 

[Eficiente]

To quote Cal

Implications require common sense. Something VSBW has come to forget is that everything doesn't need to be said to you like you're a child.

The previous implications were false for the reasons stated above, I'm yet to see reasons for this ones being wrong. Surely we aren't going to take MH as someone who merely creates unknown things and fights everyone on Final Destination.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'll take MH to be whatever he has shown himself to be, which is not much in Smash. We never even see MH make much at all and he is pretty much featless. While I agree not everything needs to be spoon fed, we need a bit more here, or else we slap Low 2-C on everyone called a god.

Being something in and of itself means little.

 

[Eficiente]

It's less about the trophy statements and more about the intro in 64, in which he animates random characters as well as the stage, how is he not able to do the same with other stages?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Making stages in 64 isn't exactly prime evidence.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Creating a stage seems like prime evidence to me that he's a creator. Even if we go solely by Smash 64, the stages Kongo Jungle, Sector Z, and Yoshi's island all contain one or numerous stars in the background, which would put Master Hand at 4-C to 4-A for creating them, backing up my arguments from earlier.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Bump.

 

[NoOneCanJustDeflectTheEmeraldSplash]

I agree. Literally creating the stages and being HEAVILY stated that he's a creator seems pretty obvious that he's a creator.

 

[Teengohanrocks]

Smashers are amped by spirits in Ultimate, and that was pretty much agreed on another thread due to the sheer amount of Low 2-C feats the game had. Master Hand is generally holding back against Smashers, so that doesn't count, and he fakes his death as we see in Ultimate (when you play as him and you die, he just falls on the ground, while every other time he explodes in a pretty long show). Other members like Saikou or Dragon can probably explain this better. Their only outlier is just defeating Tabuu.

Defeating Tabuu to me isn't an outliner because he seemed heavily weakened by Sonic. Otherwise it's pretty obvious the Smash Bros characters wouldn't have standed a chance.

Although I guess Sonic has a pretty strong feat now considering he was able to weaken Tabuu with a surprise attack.

 

[The_Smashor]

The wings are a weak point?

 

[NoOneCanJustDeflectTheEmeraldSplash]

Wings aren't a weak point, Sonic destroyed them to stop the Off Waves.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Sonic being able to harm Tabuu is the outlier.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So is everything in the Smash franchise going by that logic.

 

[Teengohanrocks]

Arceus is a spirit at the very end of World of Light meaning either Galeem or Dharkon killed the Smash Bros form of Arceus. Which keeps them at Low 2-C but for slightly different reasons than before.

 

[The_Smashor]

Master Hand was able to fight an entire army of duplicate fighters by himself who are, in turn, able to fight fighters with spirits like Arceus and Dialga.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Erm

1. Fighting many clone fighters is something the original fighters are able to do mostly individually

2. The spirit of a character isn't necessarily as strong as the original.

 

[The_Smashor]

1. The duplicates fight the fighters during the Galeem and Dharkon fight, who are Low 2-C at that point via spirits because:

2. They probably are since fighters can fight Galeem and Dharkon with them who killed them to begin with.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Smashers are kind of inconsistent and all over the place, but the bosses are generally very consistent with their universal feats regardless of 3-A or Low 2-C. All smashers should generally be on each other's level, but even then there are instances of one smasher being above every smasher put together including an identical clone of themself; and this could happen to any Smasher. So if anything, Smashers could have a variable tier; low end to scale from their own feats and/or calcs and the other for being on tier of the bosses at their peak.

 

[Zeldasmash]

The Smashers are kind of inconsistent and all over the place, but the bosses are generally very consistent with their universal feats regardless of 3-A or Low 2-C. All smashers should generally be on each other's level, but even then there are instances of one smasher being above every smasher put together including an identical clone of themself; and this could happen to any Smasher. So if anything, Smashers could have a variable tier; low end to scale from their own feats and/or calcs and the other for being on tier of the bosses at their peak.

This honestly sounds like a good course of action since looking for a full blown ranking for the fighters is incredibly inconsistent. It'd be like:


Tier: Varies. From 7-B at their weakest to 3-A, Low 2-C at their strongest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, if the better calcs get evaluated and accepted; like Ice Climber's Tier 6 feat, that would serve as a good low end. But yeah, that looks good. Speed seems pretty solid at Massively FTL+ I should add.

 

[Zeldasmash]

What does everyone else think?

If the fighters go to 3-A, Low 2-C, Tabuu and Master Hand/Crazy Hand should also remain said tiers.

 

[The_Smashor]

Because the world needs a tier 2 Dark Samus

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Care to list some examples of inconsistencies between the fighters?

Because I think a solid "at least High 6-A" for all of them would work just fine. They can tank hits from the Majora's Mask Moon assist trophy, which is stated in a trophy in Smash 4 to be capable of ending the world. That would at least be High 6-A. And they can all damage each other.

Also I recall that we agreed the fighters were amped up by spirits, so they'd only scale to Galeem or Master Hand when amped up by them.

 

[Missy0124]

@DarkDragonMedeus
Care to list some examples of inconsistencies between the fighters?

Because I think a solid "at least High 6-A" for all of them would work just fine. They can tank hits from the Majora's Mask Moon assist trophy, which is stated in a trophy in Smash 4 to be capable of ending the world. That would at least be High 6-A. And they can all damage each other.

Also I recall that we agreed the fighters were amped up by spirits, so they'd only scale to Galeem or Master Hand when amped up by them.

i do argee with the trophy argument in ending the world but in which way pure force,society wise and your saying a assist trophy counts is dumb cause for one you can see the moon in the one zelda stage called bay as welll as a assist trophy and the moon in the great bay and his games the assist tropie has never showned planetary desruction but it only stated world you could say when everything points to being able to destroy the survface of the planet as well you counted smash 64 stages as attack potency since he created them so does shenron have multiplanet level power cause he revied frieza and master hand effortless wiped out dharkon boosted fighters which disproves your scaling. and the pokemon like arcues are shown to have thier powers not ap when paklia changes space alignment in his assist trophy and his stage hazard in the spear pillar stage and palkia is shown to have multiple of his abities as shown with tropies in brawl and 4 with these two being quotes from these trophies Stories surround this Legendary Water/ Dragon-type Pokémon, saying that it has control over all of space. Its Spacial Rend attack will tear space and flip the screen upside down. When this happens, the left and right controls of the fighters will become flipped as well.Stories of this Legendary Pokémon say that Palkia is a god that controls all of space. When it uses its Spacial Rend attack in Super Smash Bros., it causes the screen to flip upside down. If that wasn't confusing enough, it also flips the left and right controls! and A Spatial Pokémon. In the Sinnoh region, this Pokémon has been revered for many generations, much like Dialga. It lives between parallel dimensions and is known for its power, rumored to be able to warp space. It can use Spatial Rend to rip through the very space an enemy resides in, damaging the foe at the same time. for examples showing them being consistent to their lore of that fransice

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I never said it was planetary destruction, which is why I said it was High 6-A and not 5-B.

How does Master Hand knocking out Dharkon-boosted fighters disprove my scaling?

I don't know why you're going on about the creation trio. My argument has nothing to do with that.

 

[Missy0124]

I never said it was planetary destruction, which is why I said it was High 6-A and not 5-B.
How does Master Hand knocking out Dharkon-boosted fighters disprove my scaling?

I don't know why you're going on about the creation trio. My argument has nothing to do with that.

it has to do with the fact other characters in smash have comparable to their Pokemon counterparts and world destroying can mean multiple things as stated like world can mean anything for example i could have my house destroyed and i would say my world would be destroyed and i could say city level destruction would be world destroying from my perscective and dharkon controling fighters would be weaker than highly weaken spirtis of characters that were destroyed almost compltely