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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

I don't see any debunk there. Sure the statement is poetic on both accounts but the meaning is clear, Arceus creates the universe and Dialgo creates / starts time.
 
Arceus creates the "world and the sky". The word for universe is purposedly avoided (or at least nobody with access to the original scan proved the word for "universe" was used, if anyone could provide me with the scan then I could accept 3-A, which I already kinda did as a high-end)

Dialga has numerous statements that literally imply he merely unfroze a frozen time. He didn't create it. It'd be easy to just say as much, but they avoid doing so, always.

If people can go against my points that'd be nice.
 
Yes, that's a way to say universe. "And God created the Heavens and the Earth", same thing here, world and skies is another way of saying that.

We already went over Dialga, that assumption makes no sense, and saying that a God of Time's birth "Made time start" is just a poetic way of saying time began with him.
 
A high-end interpretation of a purposedly jumpy and vague statement and it is at most 3-A, not tier 2.
 
I'm siding with Matt on this. Although I think it is a bit of a stretch to say "Creating the heavens and the earth" is an indicator of Low 2-C. But IIRC Matt's pretty knowledgeable on Greek Mythology, where I presume a lot of poetic flowery language like that is used, so I trust his judgment.
 
@Arbitrary

Mythology in particular hardly ever says "Dude went and created a universe", it's very poetic. Heavens and Earth is a very classic way of describing it, as is "The Firmament".
 
Heaven and Earth was never stated.

It was "Newly hatched, it created the world and the sky."

Which, at least to me, avoids the universe interpretation rather clearly. (Ignoring the fact that we shouldn't use personal interpretation of course)
 
World and the sky really isn't that much different. I'd also say it isn't so much personal interpretation as it is following trends that mythology and fiction tend to follow.
 
What do you think world and sky means, considering Dialga and Palkia are responsible for time and space respectively, and they are beneath Arceus It's obviously not a planet.

It's not really personal headcanon, it's just a reasonable interpretation.
 
I don't understand why we're making an exception here. We don't base statements from completely unrelated medias or mythologies to one another. Its literally the reason we don't accept the world to mean universe every time its used in fiction. Like most of the times someone 'created the world' or 'can destroy the world' we check for context first and almost never actually give them universal.

Also @Arbitrary for every one fiction that uses 'world' to describe the universe, I can give twice as many solely for planet or perhaps multiverse. Not sure why you've assumed fiction treats it as to mean universe commonly.
 
No fiction exists in a vacuum, SD. When talking about Arceus' statement it's important to not isolate it from the statements of other Creator Pokémon both in Smash and Pokémon Games proper. Assuming that it is just planetary due to a literal interpretation of a poetic phrase where Arceus and his peers are never once remotely suggested to be of such a limited scale is the true problematic approach.
 
I understand no fiction exists in a vacuum, but we've never done this approach (Outright taking context from unrelated mythologies and other canons, or just making headcanons as we go instead of taking what they say with the in-verse context)

Its like me making 3-A Dante a thing because of the world statements + its highly connected to religion.

Or... literally any fiction that features Gods and includes similar statements.
 
Except that's not at all what I'm suggesting, individual context is important, but my point is that Arceus' quote absolutely doesn't just suggest planet. You could erroneously interpret it as that by ignoring all context, but just cause someone could doesn't mean the more reasonable interpretation can't be used for the profile.
 
Remember that Palkia, who has control over space, and Dialga, who has control over time (and even gave birth to it) are both below Arceus. It's more likely that it means universe in this context than anything else.
 
@Matt never said that it means planet tho? I haven't commented on what it even actually means yet.

Likewise, you could erroneously interpert it as universal by adding context from an unrelated mythology, but just cause it 'sounds right' doesn't mean its the accurate interpertation.

@Arbitary I have no problem if you guys wanna take that route, I'm just saying that calling it universe because 'mah mythology' is absolutely inaccurate.
 
That was literally never my main point, I was just explaining what the term "Heaven & Earth" tends to mean in a religious sense, which is certainly worth discussing in this context.
 
@Matt and Lephyr

"Sure the statement is poetic on both accounts but the meaning is clear, Arceus creates the universe and Dialgo creates / starts time."

You were using it as evidence to support this, no? Sorry if I got confused, but your next post:

"Yes, that's a way to say universe. "And God created the Heavens and the Earth", same thing here, world and skies is another way of saying that."

Very visibly seemed to be your attempt at proving this in my eyes.
 
Yes, one point doesn't exclude the other. Contextually from both Smash Brothers. Pokémon, and mythology as a whole, interpreting "Arceus created the world and skies"' to mean just the planet is very illogical. Both because of what we know about Arceus and the Creation Trio, and the contet of the term in wider mythology.
 
@Matt Except we don't use author intent when it comes to phrases, nor have we ever contextualizes statements from other canons or mythologies. Can you stop bringing up planet when I have never said that?

@Drago not really, Matt hasn't offended me and I don't think I've offended Matt. Seems just like a normal discussion.
 
So I clicked on the thread that Kepekley23 left, and I saw this post by DetectiVE899 which seems to prove my point in that the trophies in Smash just describe the characters from their individual series, and not the Smash versions of said characters, as there are trophies that differentiate characters from their Smash counterparts.

I'll quote the post here:

"I don't see any of this, really.

"Superior to the Smash version of the Creation Trio" I don't agree with this statement at all.

Trophy descriptions don't really mean all that much since they usually specify the version of the character they mean, the Creation Trio trophies in both Smash 4 and Brawl list these characters as the Sinnoh versions of the characters (Sinnoh doesn't exist in Smash world, no reason to believe it does)...

...And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.

Mario and smash mario
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash."

So while the feat is, in my interpretation legitimate, the feat doesn't actually scale to Master Hand.
 
SomebodyData said:
@Matt Except we don't use author intent when it comes to phrases, nor have we ever contextualizes statements from other canons or mythologies. Can you stop bringing up planet when I have never said that?

@Drago not really, Matt hasn't offended me and I don't think I've offended Matt. Seems just like a normal discussion.
Click to expand...
You didn't catch it?
 
Don't really know Smash Bros but Matt seems to be making sense here.

About the authorial intent point, not using authorial intent when the goal is to determine what a certain description about a character means in context is, in all honesty, a silly thing to do.
 
Uh, we never treat specific versions of a character as equal to their original versions unless there are very direct statements outright saying as much.
 
And trying to guess author intent like people actually know what the author intended is, to say the least, completely, wholly and integrally irrelevant.

Unless we have direct Word of God, then "muh author intent" to me has the same value as bunch of zeros stacked together.
 
Dang it Drago, lol.

@Andy don't get me wrong, author's intent is important. but when you have to rely on other fictions or mythology itself, that's when the line gets blurry. We would basically have stuff like 3-A Dante or 3-A Tart (Second key) if that was the case.
 
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