IDK3465
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Speaking of which, why the hell do we not have a Steve profile yet? Someone should really get on that tbh…
(Also, I agree with 2-A)
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The 2-B Super Smash Bros. CRT
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
- Start date
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(Also, I agree with 2-A)
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- #82
Because the Smash Bros characters we have rn are only 21 compared to the full list lmfao.
I cannot do it because I am too tired for that rn, if you guys want you can ofc.
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Agree with you 2-A and the other proposals.
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- #85
I'll ask a 3rd staff as I wanna go 10000% sure about the ENG stuff ngl.
Same with @Executor_N0.
For the upcoming staff, the evidence I use for ENG being canon is here.
Can you guys ping staff who know about this (Found a list here).
Same with @Executor_N0.
For the upcoming staff, the evidence I use for ENG being canon is here.
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Since I have been asked about this, think of this as a quick exploration of canon as a help for not just this, but also future "canon discussions" (Be it here, or somewhere else).
Generally, when canon is addressed, it could be done in a solid way, by having a defined accepted canon by a producer or something like that, but we rarely have access to such things directly, so most of the time we need to get information for each piece of media individually, or guess based on some external information. So, how is that done?
The answer is generally, is the intent to bring something back for future usage, or the intent to apply something from the past into current usage. That is, what was taken into account while making a work.
The reason why normally people like to say "The original author" or "the original release" isn't for some inherent value of being the first to be released that makes it canon, but that by standard the first release usually meant the one that was worked directly by the original author, that would likely best reflect their ideas, at least better than some adaptation made with an early version of the script, and it's likely that if future work would be made, the author would refer to that release, instead of an obscure comic.
And even then, that isn't always the case. There are cases of adaptations, be it comics or novels, that are an even truer depiction of the events than the "official original release" that is taken into account instead of the original release. And this isn't even taking into account the different edit cuts of a movie, some truer to the version of the producer, director, screenwriter, sponsor, etc.
So, inherently, release dates do not matter. A rich king could buy the rights to a movie for 1 billion dollars and request a special edit made just for him to air in their country one year before the rest of the world, this won't mean that cut will be the one thought as "canon" for any future sequels for that movie.
And of course, even this talk about intent isn't sure. Using as reference this video made by the Watchtower Database, basically, no one on WB or DC wanted to take the word if certain projects are canon or not, you had the producer, the screenwriter, the director, the owners of the IP, all of them basically pushing it to someone else and not taking a 100% certain call about it, because they know how some fans can be regarding canon. So ultimately, anything regarding canonicity is almost always a case-by-case situation that can have various layers and ways of discussion.
Back to the intent stuff, normally when something is accepted as "canon", here at least, it's based on whether or not the original creators, or at least the one in charge of creating future official mainline material, take that information into account while making something new. I think the recent Bleach anime version was immediately considered canon by Bleach fans due to the whole situation regarding the series and how much more this series has been developed to expand the original manga with the help of the author. I don't think the word "canon" was ever used regarding it on an official way, but in a way "canon" has evolved to mean many things, so people will look for those other meanings and give it the description of "canon" (In this interpretation, canon is whatever the observer understands as canon, even if it's not called as that).
Usually, if the original creators were involved and it was made taking into account the official lore, as it can only do what is true in the lore, then it's likely that it can be used as evidence as if it was canon, regarding that lore, even if the work itself isn't in continuity (That is, you can have episodes of TV shows that do not fit the canon story or some adaptation that changes some events, but if they are done within the limitations of the official lore and are described for that, it can often be accepted as evidence).
The problem will be having the information to be sure about that. Especially nowadays when localization is such a touchy subject many companies will bring localization to the very start of development, with entire games and other stories being made with the intent of being prepared to go to a different country. But honestly, this doesn't change much stuff. Because stories are being made already thinking about going to a different region isn't anything new, Brock was removed from Pokémon because the producer thought it wouldn't fit well when the anime continued to be localized, so they even changed the main cast for an entire season just to better fit another country (As an example from my country, one of the voice actors for the Brazilian adaptation of Surf's Up told how in the process they had to go to London, discuss changes with every director, and basically every country had to follow this process to correctly adapt that movie to their own countries). So just because the localizers might have a direct connection with the original staff, it isn't really sure that whatever is in the dub will be made as canon (LucasFilm for example had entire documents about the localization of Star Wars movies and directly discussed it with the localizers, yet I don't think anyone would say every Star Wars dub change is canon).
The truth is, the companies can often do whatever they can to make a work do better in another country and get more money from that, if they need to change the dialogue, make it be released sooner or later, it doesn't matter, anything can happen.
So while trying to see how well any different adaptation can be used for the mainline work as "canon" (Not just dubs, but also multimedia adaptations like a game or novels), look at what they are expressing using that change. If it's something just done because it better fits with the expectations of that region and no deeper thought about that fictional world, I wouldn't count them as canon, as the changes might be done writing-wise by the localization side alone, while being overseen by some brand manager.
If it was done taking into account the lore, or maybe something like "this region has players that are fine with games with more exposition, so for their version let's use the background documents and reveal to them the lore that was left unused in other versions", I would be fine with that.
Of course, all of this means nothing without a proper example, so let's use the Sonic series.
Originally, Sonic had three different major canons, you had the American Canon, the European Canon, and the Japanese Canon. Different stories are told in the manuals and supplementary media for each one of those branches, and since Sonic was made targeting more the United States, some games not only were made thinking of that region as the main target but also released first there or even were made directly on American ground. Yet, I don't see anyone using the American Sonic CD version that has Princess Sally instead of Amy Rose and uses the rest of the American Canon as actual canon for the overall franchise (And yet some changes made for the American side were used in the Japanese version later on, case in point, the very name of Doctor Eggman being Robotnik, see how nuanced these topics can be?).
But as of now, all the sides are working together with lore teams to make sure that there's one unified Sonic lore for every region, which means that not only the very lore is being taken into account (Including work position as Associate Lore Manager), but we also have an example of a localization being done with the intent of revealing more about the lore, such as the Japanese version of Sonic Frontiers, which was rewritten from the original English script to Japanese by the director because he wanted to express more about the lore he made using Japanese.
(Still, Sonic still has a lot of contradictions and cases in which the supervision doesn't matter and they still call contradictory elements canon, such as Sonic Prime).
The answer is generally, is the intent to bring something back for future usage, or the intent to apply something from the past into current usage. That is, what was taken into account while making a work.
The reason why normally people like to say "The original author" or "the original release" isn't for some inherent value of being the first to be released that makes it canon, but that by standard the first release usually meant the one that was worked directly by the original author, that would likely best reflect their ideas, at least better than some adaptation made with an early version of the script, and it's likely that if future work would be made, the author would refer to that release, instead of an obscure comic.
And even then, that isn't always the case. There are cases of adaptations, be it comics or novels, that are an even truer depiction of the events than the "official original release" that is taken into account instead of the original release. And this isn't even taking into account the different edit cuts of a movie, some truer to the version of the producer, director, screenwriter, sponsor, etc.
So, inherently, release dates do not matter. A rich king could buy the rights to a movie for 1 billion dollars and request a special edit made just for him to air in their country one year before the rest of the world, this won't mean that cut will be the one thought as "canon" for any future sequels for that movie.
And of course, even this talk about intent isn't sure. Using as reference this video made by the Watchtower Database, basically, no one on WB or DC wanted to take the word if certain projects are canon or not, you had the producer, the screenwriter, the director, the owners of the IP, all of them basically pushing it to someone else and not taking a 100% certain call about it, because they know how some fans can be regarding canon. So ultimately, anything regarding canonicity is almost always a case-by-case situation that can have various layers and ways of discussion.
Back to the intent stuff, normally when something is accepted as "canon", here at least, it's based on whether or not the original creators, or at least the one in charge of creating future official mainline material, take that information into account while making something new. I think the recent Bleach anime version was immediately considered canon by Bleach fans due to the whole situation regarding the series and how much more this series has been developed to expand the original manga with the help of the author. I don't think the word "canon" was ever used regarding it on an official way, but in a way "canon" has evolved to mean many things, so people will look for those other meanings and give it the description of "canon" (In this interpretation, canon is whatever the observer understands as canon, even if it's not called as that).
Usually, if the original creators were involved and it was made taking into account the official lore, as it can only do what is true in the lore, then it's likely that it can be used as evidence as if it was canon, regarding that lore, even if the work itself isn't in continuity (That is, you can have episodes of TV shows that do not fit the canon story or some adaptation that changes some events, but if they are done within the limitations of the official lore and are described for that, it can often be accepted as evidence).
The problem will be having the information to be sure about that. Especially nowadays when localization is such a touchy subject many companies will bring localization to the very start of development, with entire games and other stories being made with the intent of being prepared to go to a different country. But honestly, this doesn't change much stuff. Because stories are being made already thinking about going to a different region isn't anything new, Brock was removed from Pokémon because the producer thought it wouldn't fit well when the anime continued to be localized, so they even changed the main cast for an entire season just to better fit another country (As an example from my country, one of the voice actors for the Brazilian adaptation of Surf's Up told how in the process they had to go to London, discuss changes with every director, and basically every country had to follow this process to correctly adapt that movie to their own countries). So just because the localizers might have a direct connection with the original staff, it isn't really sure that whatever is in the dub will be made as canon (LucasFilm for example had entire documents about the localization of Star Wars movies and directly discussed it with the localizers, yet I don't think anyone would say every Star Wars dub change is canon).
The truth is, the companies can often do whatever they can to make a work do better in another country and get more money from that, if they need to change the dialogue, make it be released sooner or later, it doesn't matter, anything can happen.
So while trying to see how well any different adaptation can be used for the mainline work as "canon" (Not just dubs, but also multimedia adaptations like a game or novels), look at what they are expressing using that change. If it's something just done because it better fits with the expectations of that region and no deeper thought about that fictional world, I wouldn't count them as canon, as the changes might be done writing-wise by the localization side alone, while being overseen by some brand manager.
If it was done taking into account the lore, or maybe something like "this region has players that are fine with games with more exposition, so for their version let's use the background documents and reveal to them the lore that was left unused in other versions", I would be fine with that.
Of course, all of this means nothing without a proper example, so let's use the Sonic series.
Originally, Sonic had three different major canons, you had the American Canon, the European Canon, and the Japanese Canon. Different stories are told in the manuals and supplementary media for each one of those branches, and since Sonic was made targeting more the United States, some games not only were made thinking of that region as the main target but also released first there or even were made directly on American ground. Yet, I don't see anyone using the American Sonic CD version that has Princess Sally instead of Amy Rose and uses the rest of the American Canon as actual canon for the overall franchise (And yet some changes made for the American side were used in the Japanese version later on, case in point, the very name of Doctor Eggman being Robotnik, see how nuanced these topics can be?).
But as of now, all the sides are working together with lore teams to make sure that there's one unified Sonic lore for every region, which means that not only the very lore is being taken into account (Including work position as Associate Lore Manager), but we also have an example of a localization being done with the intent of revealing more about the lore, such as the Japanese version of Sonic Frontiers, which was rewritten from the original English script to Japanese by the director because he wanted to express more about the lore he made using Japanese.
(Still, Sonic still has a lot of contradictions and cases in which the supervision doesn't matter and they still call contradictory elements canon, such as Sonic Prime).
So with the above in mind, release dates don't really matter, and I'm fine with the song being written by the same person, but I don't think that would be evidence that all the text can be considered as the same canon (That is, if a company that makes a CG movie lets the movie be animated again taking into account the motion capture for the dialogue in other languages, that wouldn't make every dub version of that movie canon).
I would recommend looking into mentions about the localization process, either for that game or games that were localized/worked on by the same team and see how they address the process. I would say that if they mention something about "being consistent with the lore" (Either favorably or negatively, with stuff being removed because it didn't fit with the lore), then I would be fine with that being used as at least supplementary evidence.
Of course, everything I said on the Spoiler tabs works not just with localization, but also with any type of adaptation. So if you can find information about how the other media or language was shaped/limited by the lore, then I think it would be fine (Still, a lot of case-by-case, never forget).
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Wait a second...
- Composer / Arrangement Supervisor: Hideaki Sakamoto
- Lyrics Supervisor: Masahiro Sakurai
- Lyrics Translator: Eric M. Smith / Ryan N. Kelley
- Recording Manager: Mahito Yokota
- Musician Coorardinater: Norito Sekiya
- Japanese Vocalist: Erina Koga
- English Vocalist: Abby Trott
- Orchestrational Performer: Super Smash Bros. Orchestra
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- #89
Right, forgot.
,2 staff went here, one agreeing with AP upgrades and one instead with both Immeasurable and AP upgrade.
I'll call more people.
,2 staff went here, one agreeing with AP upgrades and one instead with both Immeasurable and AP upgrade.
I'll call more people.
ZespeonGalaxy
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Bump
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- #92
I am sorry for the delay dudes, I am pretty full in these days so I can barely get on PC.
Anyway, as I said above, I don't think 2-A is really valid anymore after the stuff Executor said, however 2-B off 173 x countless timelines is still gucci.
I'll call more people about Immeasurable speed.
Anyway, as I said above, I don't think 2-A is really valid anymore after the stuff Executor said, however 2-B off 173 x countless timelines is still gucci.
I'll call more people about Immeasurable speed.
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Honestly for how dead the thread is I suppose that I'll apply the 2-B statistics first and then the Immeasurable speed talk will be handled in another CRT, given that no staff seems to come in, but generally there's no resistance against 2-B stats from what I saw.
Will do so this evening as I'm not on PC rn.
Will do so this evening as I'm not on PC rn.
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- #94
Oh about this as I forgot.
Undertale isn't merely because of Asriel's Hyper Goner being an attack that destroys a timeline, is because of Frisk dodging the very destruction of said space-time, aka yours is a false equivalence.
Regardless I myself am starting to become a bit unsure about Immeasurable myself (though the arguments are different), but there's still MFTL+ as alternative (and a far higher one at that given that the current calc assumes that the light devoured only a galaxy in seconds when in actuality is the universe).
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Is it not the multiverse? Comprised of 173x countless universes? If we decide to give this a finite speed value, it'll be the highest finite value I've ever seen in power-scalling, which is fine by me since I also find immeasurable a bit iffy.
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Not even close lol
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I said that I've seen. I know there must be way higher ones
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- #98
Tbh we see a kind of timeskip between Kirby landing in the new universe and Galeem being done with the destruction, so ig we can't assume that?
IDK3465
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Personally, I think an “At least 2-B, likely 2-A” would work better as, while the exact wording is different, the overall idea should still be the same.
It’s not like the multiverse is expanding infinitely, but is finite in size at all points in time, because, well, time is only a thing within timelines. Outside of the universes, all possibilities and timelines would already have to exist. If all worlds are truly “eternal” as mentioned in the cosmology blog, then there’d have to be an infinite amount of timelines to match.
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Galeem's attack speed would also have to be at least infinite
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No, the wiki does index infinitely-expanding timelines as just 2-B, because it's simply never infinite despite always increasing in size with no end.
It'd be a NLF to say that it's 2-A, because that'd require additional evidence (plus every verse running on MWI would be 2-A too by this logic).
We don't say that a universe that's infinitely expanding is High 3-A despite lacking evidence of straight up infinite size by the get go for a reason, either.
Plus if you wanna argue it still just make another CRT as this one is going from 2 months and I am getting a lil' tired, ya know. Gonna apply the 2-B ratings to the verse as I said above.
IDK3465
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Alright, fair, but I want to note that there's a difference between an endlessly expanding universe, which is inherently limited by time and therefore always finite, and a multiverse, which most commonly isn't.
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- #103
The thing is that in fiction is mostly potrayed as the universes spreading around just like you'd think at a certain timerate, aka I'd avoid using unnecessary assumptions here.
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Not a significant one for sure. Kirby just warps away from Galeem's attack and the next thing we know, he warps back in and everything's dead
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Here is the new thread:
Smash Bros: Immeasurable speed revision
A continuation of this as that CRT is accepted about AP, but for speed is dead as ****. Anyway, let's keep this simple: As accepted in the linked CRT and current Galeem's profile, his light has expanded across all the cosmology to devour it and all the characters inhabitating it. The evidence...
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- #107
I am EXTREMELY SORRY for bringing this again (spoke with Ant and he gave me the ok), but I have found a major issue that makes this CRT pretty moot and shoots it to the ground (outside of Range, it being 2-B is still ok).
I do not think anymore Galeem is 2-B because of the fact that after both his and Dharkon's deaths, the spirits are shown to return to their home worlds after being freed, and they specifically use a portal, which would make no sense if Galeem destroyed all the universes except of one, with another major contradiction is Galeem still nuking the universe in the bad ending despite his intention of making his own world.
I remembered of this detail only today, so I am sorry for any inconvenience that this caused.
If you're ok, everyone who was upgraded to 2-B will return to be "3-A, likely Low 2-C", with Galeem and Dharkon still having 2-B range. It's like Heaven Dio who despite clearly having 2-A range, his destructive power can be mostly condensated in a single universe.
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DAMN, that stings
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Ouch.
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RIP
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I was about to do Smash Sonic vs base Game Sonic too...
IDK3465
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Lou_change
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That is supposed to be a portal?
Does no one else scale to the cosmological several beings are at least implied to have created individual infinitely branching universes (Master Hand and Arceus for example) would they only scale to the initial universe they created.
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It's a big glowing thing in the middle of outer space where everyone else goes to. Don't think can be anything else.
Tbh the way SSB is handled here is horrible, Master Hand is currently High 6-A for example. Trying to fix that soon.
IDK3465
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Wait, hold on… I think I have a counter-argument:
When Galeem and Dharkon are defeated, they explode into shockwaves of light that reshape the planet, heavily implying their deaths resulted in the whole world being rid of their influence. While we only get to see the earth get returned to normal, given how the other cutscenes make use of the terms “universe,” “world,” etc. I’d say it’s a fair assumption that this affected the rest of the universe as well.
Also, that thing about Galeem “nuking the universe” in the light ending, going against their goal of making a new world is also wrong. What we see there is literally the same thing as the opening, Galeem probably just saw how their plan was skewed up by Kirby, and decided to reset it all so that they wouldn’t get defeated again.
Besides, if the other universes still existed since the start, why didn’t the spirits just return home right after being freed by the fighters? Why would they all unanimously decide to leave right at the very end? Hell, why were the fighters forced to be within Galeem’s realm if several of them could easily teleport out of there whenever they wanted? It’s not like they were on any kind of time limit after all.
So, the spirits being able to return home isn’t necessarily because they were never destroyed, but rather, Galeem’s death causing them to be reformed.
Lou_change
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I think it's because he's said to only represent the power of creation, but it shouldn't take more than a minute to understand that he is the literal right hand of the creator and logically was used to create the world.
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- #119
Extending the "restored the planet" to "restored the multiverse" is definitely a big stretch ngl. We don't see much visually, so se just go by what we see and know.
This is another assumption. He's not resetting anything, it's clear that filling with light completely destroys the universe, why would it magically assume that it has now reset attributes?
Them being able to go back there is a contradiction regardless, if the assumption of all the universes being gone is taken.
Plus there's the fact that as you said, Galeem still had influence over them, it doesn't contradict the narrative of "they still couldn't go back to their home universes until Galeem dies".
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- #120
Tbh while 2-B is bunk, I realized that there are way more Low 2-C stuff in Smash than I thought, but that's gonna be handled in its own thread tbh.
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