You don't make clear that if you disagree with how
- "there is no distinction between "a contradiction" and "authors not knowing of the implications [Stats stuff]"; Every contradiction has that (unless done on purpose)"
for reasons you don't say,
or, if you agree & don't care about the contradiction. If it's the latter, you need to be transparent about it.
I said 2 times already & I'll say it a 3º time, since you still don't reply to it; "I say that you're trying to dismiss consistency here, and that I try to care more about it to discern what stats are correct, would you be able to counter that?" Bc the nothingburger is caring about consistency, you could have just admitted what I said and gave your reasons for it, it stands to reason to think you didn't bc that would clearly make your stance look terrible.
What about you actually show me the characters struggling from these timeframes rather than "huh huh timeframe = speed is bunk!!!", because there's litrally nothing about Smashers struggling with said timeframes lmao.
Please don't just say things like that; Tell me what do you think of what I said. As far as I know you don't actually care about those anti-feats as something against your stance, but you don't say so, yet the fact that they're not
that bad as anti-feats is an advantage for your stance now. It's a very confused way to argue, there is 0 room for vulnerability at all times.
The premise is already wrong, I don't need to show you the characters struggling, the fact that infinitely fast characters fighting within timeframes is already an anti-feat, and that happened a lot. You portray it as something stupid saying "huh huh timeframe = speed is bunk!!!" but anyone can portray anything as something stupid like that, it doesn't mean you have an argument. There is no meaningful, mechanical difference between "fighting while time passes," and "struggling to do something while passes." This goes back to what I said before about you, being quick to give premises that don't hold up at all.
But even then there are cases where time passes while they struggle:
- The subspace bomb at the start of the story is set for detonation in three minutes, the fighers battle for that long, things happens, Kirby and Peach/Zelda begin chasing Wario to save Zelda/Peach as the timer is finishing, and finishes.
- The cast fails to defeat all enemies as the timer of subspace bombs go on and on in the Subspace Bomb Factory, then they try to destroy them themselves as the timers closes in.
Blud if 2 staff and like... everyone in this thread agrees with me and not you, then that should make you start question things.
I think critically about all comments and what they imply, I don't close myself. I have my reasons to disagree, as you can see.
This is just your argument from incredulity, got it. Like... what does this try to say outside "It's not Immeasurable because I say so", really?
I did not say that was the case, I clearly gave you a hypothetical to work with, to emphasize the unlikelihood of your stance. It doesn't work if you can't see it as a hypothetical, and if you can't work with one. Can you please bother to work with my hypothetical for a moment?
It picks what characters to affect from the past and future, rather than affecting all time & all space all at once.
"Character did not show to know how to travel across eras so that's a debunk against immeasurable", ngl this is just getting desperate. You literally see the feat happening, like in front of your eyes. You're just making a bunch of sorry excuses in trying to downplay this for the sake of downplaying.
Again, you're vague as to what your stance is. So you think Kirby did time travel, and knew how to do that, right? Ok, we have that statement from Sakurai implying that couldn't be the case bc the Warp Star is just moving fast like it did in the first Kirby game. That's another argument in my favor. You would have connected the dots of what I was saying if you were less full of youself, bc at that point you wouldn't be so convinced that I'm just doing everything wrong.
Look, now you're gonna say how that argument doesn't matter due to reasons you didn't say in the comment I'm quoting, and that'll of course change nothing about your low opinion on my arguments nor recognize any mistake in yours. I just never have a point, except all those times I do which don't count, and your points are great, except all those times they misunderstand my points which don't count. I can source all of that if asked. Instead of realising stress saying things like "this is just getting desperate" and "You're just making a bunch of sorry excuses in trying to downplay this for the sake of downplaying," could you please calm down, try to understand what I'm saying, from where I'm coming from, and what would be the best way to counter it?
Bro if these are anti-feat, then you'd have to like... downgrade every verse that has Immeasurable stuff off the notion of time passing. You do realize that the story has to still be comprehensible to us, and the game has to be still playable, correct? You're under the assumption that every character who is Infinite/Immeasurable must always do everything in 0 time, but if they do, the story just wouldn't be able to progress. Even if they're MFTL+, with the current calculation, the audience wouldn't still be able to perceive them, and the fights would always realistically end in not even a second. Ergo this falls back to "authors don't realize how fast their characters are so they make goofy stuff like that" without thinking too much. These aren't anti-feats at all, only under your warped standards of it.
If the wiki is this strict about Immeasurable speed scalings, then almost no character would qualify outside of... 5 or 6 verses at most. But it's clearly not the case.
You put a lot of energy into replying these familiar things you already said, which is problematic when there are still things you miss or don't reply to. Are those comments still aimed at me? I don't believe you that every verse is like that, having a same context as to what's applicable here. But even if they had that, they could be wrong, and I would still be disagreeing. This is a Smash thread, I only cover Smash here. Building confidence on high stats being correct bc "others have the same reasons" is flawed, the fact that other verses need to keep popping up shows how intrusive and fragile that mindset is. One needs to make them stand on their own due their own logic & reason, this should not be too much to ask.
I'm not "under the assumption that every character who is Infinite/Immeasurable must always do everything in 0 time," I never said so, there can be some pretty horrible consistency, but the crazy stats need to be the
most consistent & likely. In this context, there is 1 feat at that level, which can simply be time travel, and the rest are all anti-feats.
It's true that MFTL+ isn't 100% consistent, however you do know that I said this:
- "time limits and timeframes against higher ends speeds feats are an argument due being contradictions. The higher the speed, the more normal the timeframes move, the bigger the contradiction. So moving a lightspeed and having a timeframe contradict that isn't the same as moving at infinite speed and having a timeframe contradict that. The contradiction would be infinitely bigger, and that's all based on logic"
- You again use the "authors don't realize" narrative, remember I said this about it: "That is a contradiction because, there is no distinction between "a contradiction" and "authors not knowing of the implications [Stats stuff]"; Every contradiction has that (unless done on purpose). You made up a rule as to why anti-feats can't be seen as anti-feats but there is no logic behind it." Don't you see as an issue that you didn't reply to that at the time but bring back the "authors don't realize" bit again, as if I had nothing on that? It's not much of a debate if you're going off momentum.
- Furthermore MFTL+ is more consistent
- Warp Stars move like that and the cast can barely react to them.
- Kirby can react to them while flying, which he does a lot.
- The Halberd can keep up with a Warp Star and boink Kirby and Peach/Zelda out of it; The Halberd doesn't travel super fast next to what everyone can reach to, in its stage, the cast moves in tandem with it flying around.
- Yoshi can keep up with a Warp Star by running.
- Everyone's ships are around as fast as the Dragoon, which "towers above all others [machines] in terms of speed" in Kirby Air Ride. The Warp Star is one of those machines there, and it has a sticker from that game in Smash.
- Many dodged the rays of light, which as your stance believes are Imme. and I disagree.
No one said stages aren't canon, it's just that we prioritize cutscenes over gameplay stuff.
My comment replied to something a bit like this
- "Question, are they tagged by less?"
- "I think Brawl is probably the only previous Smash Bros game worth looking at for reference as it's the only other Smash game with cinematic cutscenes or a main story."
I imagine "prioritize" doesn't mean "ignore those anti-feats as they're not cutscenes," right?
