Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

[Warren_Valion]

Now that's another matter entirely. One which I genuinely have no clue.
Although, what are those multiversal statements?

It comes from a Palutena's Guidance of Young Link in Ultimate, here.

Viridi makes this statement:

"Ever action and inaction creates infinite parallel worlds! You are only in one of them."

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Nothing indicates that anybody was creating the infinite parallel worlds. Not Dialga, not Palkia, and not Arceus. They're all universal+ statements at best.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Nothing indicates that anybody was creating the infinite parallel worlds. Not Dialga, not Palkia, and not Arceus. They're all universal+ statements at best.

The trophy statements indicate that they created time, space, and "world and sky". That's some classic poetic language for creating the cosmos.

If the Creation Trio were responsible for creating the Smash Multiverse, then the feat would scale to them.

 

[The_Smashor]

Nobody is even implied to have created infinite paralell worlds. It's presented as a natural occurance.

 

[IvoryAS]

IIRC, the thing that contradicts Master Hand being this "Creator Deity" is the fact that he loses to his creations in every single game. Or something to that effect.

I was just wondering, did you guys ever resolve this, cause if not...

Couldn't the version that fights the smasher just be an infinitley weaker avatar?

 

[Eficiente]

We try, but the thread was invaded by completely different topics that are only related in the vague sense that it talks about MH being Low 2-C or not, we were close to reach a conclusion and I honestly don't know how to get back to that.

Anyone having a "weaker avatar" is a headcanon.

 

[IvoryAS]

Anyone having a "weaker avatar" is a headcanon.

Darkseid and Pennywise be like...

 

[Dragopentling]

@Warren Bro, chill....I'm not against the downgrades. It's just that people wanted to derail it by continuing to chat about something not centered around the important issue. That's why I said "stick to the main topic, ffs"

 

[Eficiente]

I called Azzy to give an opinion on Warren's stuff, I have an idea on what his position about it will be given previous comments he gave about the cosmotology of the verse (which doesn't take itself very seriously). I don't feel like arguing that anymore due to requiring logic as opposite to statements saying facts (which there are, but part of his argument require most of them to be ignored which makes everything very complicated), and that makes everything extremely long and annoying.

That said, can we continue with the other stuff, please? How much more people have to agree with it?

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren
Bro, chill....I'm not against the downgrades. It's just that people wanted to derail it by continuing to chat about something not centered around the important issue. That's why I said "stick to the main topic, ffs"

I'm pretty calm, dude.

And what are you talking about?

The last time you posted was, people were discussing possible other tiers for Master Hand and co if the downgrades go through. Which was on topic, so I don't know what else there was to discuss.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Eficiente

Yeah, I'm getting tired of debating the topic myself.

What other things need to be discussed?

 

[Eficiente]

I don't know what else there was to discuss.

Accept as false, and remove the following:

• "Created the Smash Bros. universe" from MH
• "and pulled its fighters from other universes" from MH
• "When he is killed, the universe ceases to exist" from MH
• "Created" from Tabuu
• "and embodies the Subspace realm" from Tabuu

 

[Warren_Valion]

Was that not already accepted?

 

[Eficiente]

Many were ok with it, no one seems to disagree with me on that anymore.

@Any Admin Ok so, can I perform the changes?

• Master Hand
• Tabuu

 

[Dragopentling]

@Warren It was more cause I thought the talk about the SSB versions of the Poke Gods was trying to drive it too much off topic, if that answers your question

 

[The_Smashor]

As long as they stay Low 2-C I'm fine with it.

 

[Dragopentling]

Many were ok with it, no one seems to disagree with me on that anymore.

@Any Admin Ok so, can I perform the changes?

May be just me, but I think it's fine as long as you put the link to this thread as a reason for the changes

 

[Warren_Valion]

So what will happen? Are they getting downgraded, or is their reasoning changing?

Because I have a problem with the whole, "views the Creation Trio as toys" thing.

Like, they should scale above the Creation Trio, but the "viewing them as toys" gives people the impression that the difference between Master Hand and the Creation Trio is "inconceivable".

Which is a notion that I disagree with because the truth of the matter is that Smash characters are trophies, as shown in Brawl's subspace.

Like, in this screenshot. Link and Yoshi are above the defeated trophy forms of Mario and Pit.




Does this mean that Link and Yoshi are "inconceivably" more powerful than Mario and Pit?

No, it just means that they were in their trophy forms.

And so I don't see why Master Hand and the Creation Trio should be any different, especially when the statement comes from the trophy gallery description and there is no place where Master Hand is shown in-game to view the characters as toys.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I found a statement in the European version that I thought was work sharing. He is creation personified. Someone probably has found this already, but I figured it was worth it

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Warren

I do agree 100% with that.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Warren

Galeem and Dharkon are Low 2-C for transforming Smash!Arceus into a spirit, and as we see in the intro, you literally need to vaporize said being to turn him into a spirit. And the original Master Hand and Crazy Hand can fight fighters that just defeated Dharkon, so they would scale nonetheless.

They're going to remain Low 2-C

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Honestly why does Master Hand scale above the CT in the first place? MH dies to every Smasher and Tabuu. His feats are next to none and he loses literally every fight he is a part of.

 

[Kepekley23]

Smash! Arceus is not only completely featless, even if you ignore that he is at best 3-A via creating the universe.

They're not remaining Low 2-C.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Honestly why does Master Hand scale above the CT in the first place? MH dies to every Smasher and Tabuu. His feats are next to none and he loses literally every fight he is a part of.

Read my post. "Dies to every Smasher", at the end of World of Light, MH single-handedly defeated 50 smashers and he's stated to hold back against them. He only "loses" to them only when they're amped by spirits.

Smash! Arceus is not only completely featless, even if you ignore that he is at best 3-A via creating the universe.

They're not remaining Low 2-C.

Arceus>Dialga=Low 2-C via creating time

 

[Kepekley23]

No. Dialga is not Low 2-C. I have elaborated multiple times already.

 

[TriforcePower1]

And Matt elaborated why Dialga IS Low 2-C.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Can you post the part where MH beats 50 Smashers "while holding back"? Because it looks like Marth, Zelda, and Pit are pretty confident in defeating 10 MHs.

Also in Brawl, Tabuu, who is superior to MH, loses to the Smashers.

 

[Kepekley23]

And Matt elaborated why Dialga IS Low 2-C.

He just disagreed with my arguments.

Can you respond to them? Or Warren?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Can you post the part where MH beats 50 Smashers "while holding back"? Because it looks like Marth, Zelda, and Pit are pretty confident in defeating 10 MHs.

Also in Brawl, Tabuu, who is superior to MH, loses to the Smashers.

https://youtu.be/gXRhUL1vf34 The holding back part is from ome of his trophies in a previous game (Melee iirc).

I guess that simply means that the clones are much weaker that the original.

Assalt, that's an outlier and we both know it.

 

[Eficiente]

Can we do one thing at a time? Having to repeat arguments, which are being ignored due to no one making an answer to them, is already super annoying.

I need to remove this, can I do so? Thanks. Master Hand & Tabuu

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Triforce

So beating Tabuu who is stronger than MH is an outlier.

I guess the Smashers beating MH is an outlier.

And beating Galeem, who is stronger than MH.

And beating Dharkon, who is equal to Galeem.

And beating Master Core, who is stronger than MH (I know Smash 4's lore isn't exactly fleshed out, but Master Core should be stronger than MH).

In every iteration of Smash the Smashers have beaten MH. In most there are entities stronger than MH that the Smashers beat. So either MH is the absolute god of holding back or the stats for the Smash characters are massively inflated.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Smashers are amped by spirits in Ultimate, and that was pretty much agreed on another thread due to the sheer amount of Low 2-C feats the game had. Master Hand is generally holding back against Smashers, so that doesn't count, and he fakes his death as we see in Ultimate (when you play as him and you die, he just falls on the ground, while every other time he explodes in a pretty long show). Other members like Saikou or Dragon can probably explain this better. Their only outlier is just defeating Tabuu.

 

[DMB_1]

>The sheer amount of Low 2-C feats that MH had.

Which feats are you referring to?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Being amped by spirits doesn't help them survive the only valid feat out of the verse in Galeem's universe bust. If you kill Dharkon, Galeem busts the universe. If you kill Galeem, Dharkon consumes the Earth in darkness.

Galeem's super attack doesn't scale to his base power, and thus don't scale to the Smashers.

Also you can die as MH in ultimate. So yeah, that also shows he isn't as strong as you're making him out to be.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I still stand by my argument earlier for why Master Hand himself is 4-A to 3-B regardless of who is superior to him.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'd like to bring this up again because I would like for it to be considered and addressed.

"The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!"

"THE source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe".

This isn't just a statement of him "creating things" and nothing else. He is the source of creation. If someone told you their job was the source of their stress and anxiety, you'd assume that most, if not all of their stress and anxiety came from their job.

Also, notice how it says, THE source, and not just "oh he's a source"? This, to me, implies that he is the single source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe, at least in the grand scheme of things.

All of this in tandem, to me, means that all creation in the universe came from Master Hand, or at least has its roots in him. This means that either:

• He created the big bang

or

• He manually created every single individual thing in the universe

The former would be 3-A as it doesn't indicate anything about space-time. The latter would be 4-C to 4-A as he had to create each individual star and celestial body in the universe. We see on multiple stages that stars exist in the Smash universe, and that they're plentiful.

 

[TriforcePower1]

>The sheer amount of Low 2-C feats that MH had.

Which feats are you referring to?

I'm referring to the fighers fighting Galeem, Dharkon etc.

Snip

Because Light/Corruption can be resisted via sheer AP...

And this matters why? Galeem isn't Low 2-C from that.

Boi, that's like losing against a Pidgey after you've become Pokémon champion. That's not canon in the least.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that Master Hand is obviously 3-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

Galeem is the only one with a 3-A feat, though.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think that Master Hand is obviously 3-A.

From what?

Galeem and Dharkon are only 3-A from one attack that kills everyone else in the game. Since they are defeated physically be the roster.