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Super Mario Revision: What to Do About Dreams?

CloverDragon03

CloverDragon03

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Note: This is not strictly an upgrade or downgrade thread. This is just to determine what exactly to do about this topic.

So there was a thread about the nature of dreams in the Mario franchise some time ago, but it kinda got bloated and died so I wanted to revisit the topic from a neutral perspective. As in, I'm not aiming for a specific outcome here, I just wanna figure out what the best course of action is.

Basically, this thread will aim to determine whether or not dreams are universal in size, based on evidence provided from various points in time as this topic's been discussed. Let's begin.

Arguments For Dreams Being Universal in Size:
Arguments Against Dreams Being Universal in Size:
I think this is everything relevant. I should note what'll happen IF the downgrade side of things is what's accepted. Basically, 2-B and 2-A for Mario would go, and would be replaced by the following:
  • For the 2-B Dream Team stuff, we'd have two things:
    • Characters like Antasma would become 4-A for consuming individual dreams, which would go down to that size via the starry sky calc
    • Characters like Zeekeeper and Dreamy Bowser scale to the Dream Stone which is accepted as being amped by 100,000 dreams, so they'd scale to that value multiplied by 100,000. This becomes 1.688e+68 Joules, or 3-C
    • I propose that, given the discrepancy between Dreamy Luigi fighting both non-Dark Stone amped Antasma and the Zeekeeper, we should have him at something like "4-A, 3-C as Giant Luigi." And if the upgrade is what's accepted, I suppose Dreamy Luigi would be "Low 2-C, 2-B as Giant Luigi" (regardless of what happens, this inconsistency needs to be addressed, and this is the best way to do it imo)
  • For the 2-A stuff, I'll just grab what a downgrade thread had initially proposed, which is, and I quote:
    • "The Void from SPM, as well as those who scale to it (Super Dimentio, Chaos Heart, and Pure Heart Wielders), would remain at some degree of multiversal - However, they would no longer be able to scale to 2-B/2-A due to the cosmology no longer containing countless dreams of universal size. It would be limited to the universes/dimensions we see in Super Paper Mario (The 7 Worlds, Mario’s home universe, and Count Bleck’s home universe), and we can likely count a parallel dimension in Color Splash, which would be Low Multiversal (should be about 10 universes, however there are arguments for more or less, the specifics can be worked out later)." So, 10 universes into 2-C, basically. Of course, it would stay at 2-A if the upgrade's accepted
I'm also not knowledgeable enough to say for sure how this affects the Infinite speed stuff, so that needs discussing if the downgrade side of things is accepted. If the upgrade side is accepted, things will stay as is.

So yeah, that's about it on my end. It was kinda nagging at me that this was never fully resolved, so I wanted to make a thread from a neutral perspective that aims to finally get this dealt with. Now, I'll open the floor to discussion!

Tally:
Dreams are Universal: DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, LephyrTheRevanchist
Dreams are Not Universal:
Neutral:
 
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So basically, Marioverse gets downgraded again?

LuckyEmilie thinks they're still universes (I was told at their request to comment such). And I still buy dreams being universes
 
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This wont affect the infinite speed stuffs foundations btw, the stuff in the book certainly has an infinite realm.

A lot of this hinges on the paper realm being identical to the main one.

I think it makes more sense that the paper beings send dreams to the dream world, being it's not actually properly part of the main one, but we have stuff like paper shy guys, which by lore originate in dream worlds. And it's confirmed paper beings do dream.
 
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I get real exhausted with repeated topics, but I am the one who also basically made our Universe page and would ought to know what would or wouldn't qualify for ones that I have invested in or spoke with others who did in depth research. But I should mention this section.
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
The bubbles are clearly intended to show all Dreams as being parallel to one another, which means if at least one of them is universal in size, all of them should be effectively. But Future Dream clearly has far too many evidences of being "Endless" or "Infinite". Also, "Wonders of the universe" sounds metaphorical on paper to say it's a dream about space and Astronomy, but in execution "The Universe" is specifically referring to Future Dream. Also, in story mode, when Misstar says "Dream of the Universe", she is literally describing Future Dream as a Dream that contains the Universe. So I think being Universal in size is pretty on point. Other Dream Worlds such as Super Mario Bros 2 and Mario & Luigi: Dream Team also consistently have starry skies, but being parallel to each other or Subcon being Parallel to Subspace (Which also has a starry sky) are supporting evidence of Dreams being parallel. Subcon is also called a Universe here. And also, iirc, certain worlds in Dream Team also had statements about being endless in size.

Furthermore, while it's still being worked on, probably won't happen anytime soon. There are plans to revise the baseline of Low 2-C, where dimensions having their own space-time continuum alone is enough to qualify as Low 2-C size. Reason being, because infinite temporal snapshots put together are effectively infinite when put together. We have a weird needs to be to have at least as much 3-D volume as the observable universe on time of having a 4th dimension being time. The problem is having the latter automatically exceeds the former (And automatically larger than High 3-A size by default) supposedly. And if this goes through, the flow of time thing alone justifies the big multiverse and Dream Worlds being universes. But I still think other reasons outside of that proves universes. Super Paper Mario also confirms that there exist innumerable amounts of parallel worlds/dimensions even outside of Dream Worlds, so the cosmology would effectively still be a big multiverse either way.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Thanks for the input. I assume I can put you down for supporting dreams being universes?

Also, whenever you're able, would you be able to send some scans for some of things you've mentioned? Like when you said Super Paper Mario confirms the existence of innumerable worlds/dimensions, for instance
 
I'm pretty much in the same boat as DDM and Planck, but I'm unfortunately not staff.
 
I brought this up two years ago, and this user was able to give, in my opinion, better supporting evidence that these dream worlds are universes.

vsbattles.com

Evidence for dreams being universes in Mario?

Does anyone have any other scans that showcase that dreams in Mario verse are universes? Currently it links to this page, which doesn't really express that in my opinion. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/9/9a/7XLwQ1X.png/revision/latest?cb=20170410103803 First of all, this is...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

The future dream is not good evidence and should not be used, but the rest of the things shown in mario dream team should be enough. So I agree.
 
I agree that dreams can be universes, but I don’t agree that every dream is inherently universal size (I’d say this about any sort of dream cosmology).

Dream Team shows that shared dreams can exist and even has four Pi’illos occupy the same dream space, and in general the game treats different dream worlds as subsections of an overarching world. This is sort of consistent with future Dream, as it’s not the Dream of any one individual so much as, the collective dream of the universe.

The bubbles being the same size isn’t enough to prove things to me, the bubbles are not the actual dreams themselves so much as representations of them.

So, I guess I agree dreams as a whole should be downgraded in the sense of them all being universal I disagree with, but I’m fine with dreams being able to reach universal size (either through the dream of a powerful individual or a collective dream)
 
JJSliderman said:
Dream Team shows that shared dreams can exist and even has four Pi’illos occupy the same dream space, and in general the game treats different dream worlds as subsections of an overarching world. This is sort of consistent with future Dream, as it’s not the Dream of any one individual so much as, the collective dream of the universe
Click to expand...
The plot of Dream Team is that multiple Dream Worlds are being merged into one as the instruction manuels say. And the fact that Dreambert still uses "Worlds" as plural.
JJSliderman said:
The bubbles being the same size isn’t enough to prove things to me, the bubbles are not the actual dreams themselves so much as representations of them.
Click to expand...
Bubble imagery is basically a visual aesthetic intended to resemble the bubble multiverse theory videos all over the internet and were all over TV before the internet. And the general conclusion is each bubble is a dimension/universe. Seeing a bubble multiple times that gives an image of Future Dream is just viewing the same bubble multiple times, and not evidence that Future Dream consists of multiple bubbles. So Future Dream is merely the size of one bubble and/or there are multiple Future Dreams.
JJSliderman said:
So, I guess I agree dreams as a whole should be downgraded in the sense of them all being universal I disagree with, but I’m fine with dreams being able to reach universal size (either through the dream of a powerful individual or a collective dream)
Click to expand...
There is still ultimately the parallel status that SMB 2 confirms, and all the bubbles are literally "Parallel" to each other. If at least one of them is universe sized, all of them are. And it's especially Dream Team showcasing Dream Worlds have flow of time behaving differently from each other and the world Luigi is awake in.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The plot of Dream Team is that multiple Dream Worlds are being merged into one as the instruction manuels say. And the fact that Dreambert still uses "Worlds" as plural.

Bubble imagery is basically a visual aesthetic intended to resemble the bubble multiverse theory videos all over the internet and were all over TV before the internet. And the general conclusion is each bubble is a dimension/universe. Seeing a bubble multiple times that gives an image of Future Dream is just viewing the same bubble multiple times, and not evidence that Future Dream consists of multiple bubbles. So Future Dream is merely the size of one bubble and/or there are multiple Future Dreams.

There is still ultimately the parallel status that SMB 2 confirms, and all the bubbles are literally "Parallel" to each other. If at least one of them is universe sized, all of them are. And it's especially Dream Team showcasing Dream Worlds have flow of time behaving differently from each other and the world Luigi is awake in.
Click to expand...
I agree they have a different flow of time, I don’t agree that each individual world is universe sized. The game has instances where you outright need to expand dream worlds because they’re not large enough to hide Peach despite that, not making sense if they were all universal by default. The subcon in Mario 2 is likely not the same as the subcons in the sequel, since Subcon in 2 was described as “a world of dreams” plural, meaning multiple dreams comprised the singular universe of subcon. This status wasn’t used again for any of the subcons in the sequel, since they were ascribed to individual dreamers, so I don’t see why they would be universes.

Multiple dreams being merged into one does not make those dreams universes, nor does DB’s statement of them being worlds. If they aren’t universal size then, having a time flow doesn’t matter according to the site’s rules.

The problem with future dream is they don’t ascribe it to any one dreamer. Misstar just refers to it as “the dream of the universe”, which is a generic term that can be dreamed up by multiple individuals. Same with the other dream orbs, they could feasibly be comprised of multiple dreamers’ aspirations as well, given they all represent generic concepts and the precedent for shared dreams exists from both Mario 2 and Dream Team.
 
The instruction Manuel literally says Dreams are born every day, meaning a single character creating many dreams is still on going. And there are obviously many characters producing.

"World of Dreams" is left kind of vague, it's not limited single universe containing numerous pocket dimensions. And the word "World" isn't locked to mean a single universe, multiverses can be called worlds too. But the Subcon Mario and friends go to in Super Mario Bros 2 is just one of many Dream Worlds, Subspace is also a literal parallel world to Subcon that also has its own flow of time + starry skies. Also, Mario, Luigi, Toad, and Peach having that same dream was just that one time; but in lore, people usually just have their own dreams. Same thing happens IRL where people can occasionally have the same dream as someone else the same night, but usually people just have their own.

Needing to expand dream worlds in Dream Team is mainly just game mechanics. And it's not so much the size of them is smaller, but just the size of place Mario can explore would be. Some dream worlds have a little bit of land, but the rest is just limitless amounts of empty space. Also, while it hasn't been applied yet; there are eventual plans to revise the baseline of Low 2-C. Where having a single temporal dimension justifies it alone seems to be the likely conclusion.

I still highly doubt Future Dream was just a single dream shared by billions; way too big of a coincidence for that to be a case. "Dream of the Universe" literally just means a Dream about "Exploring the Universe." Misstar refers to dreams based on what they're about or the theme of the Dream. And if anything, it basically justifies Future Dream being Universe sized.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The instruction Manuel literally says Dreams are born every day, meaning a single character creating many dreams is still on going. And there are obviously many characters producing.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't this make the cosmology Ad-Infinitum in 2-B like Undertale is?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Wouldn't this make the cosmology Ad-Infinitum in 2-B like Undertale is?
Click to expand...
That's what we used to have, but it's not actually a counter against infinite. Something can be infinite and still growing; and be a "Adding to infinity but still infinity." It's weird, but still plausible. And they got the 2-A stuff for different reasons; such as their being an infinite number of particles per universe, and even particles are sentient lifeforms who have dreams.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The instruction Manuel literally says Dreams are born every day, meaning a single character creating many dreams is still on going. And there are obviously many characters producing.

"World of Dreams" is left kind of vague, it's not limited single universe containing numerous pocket dimensions. And the word "World" isn't locked to mean a single universe, multiverses can be called worlds too. But the Subcon Mario and friends go to in Super Mario Bros 2 is just one of many Dream Worlds, Subspace is also a literal parallel world to Subcon that also has its own flow of time + starry skies. Also, Mario, Luigi, Toad, and Peach having that same dream was just that one time; but in lore, people usually just have their own dreams. Same thing happens IRL where people can occasionally have the same dream as someone else the same night, but usually people just have their own.

Needing to expand dream worlds in Dream Team is mainly just game mechanics. And it's not so much the size of them is smaller, but just the size of place Mario can explore would be. Some dream worlds have a little bit of land, but the rest is just limitless amounts of empty space. Also, while it hasn't been applied yet; there are eventual plans to revise the baseline of Low 2-C. Where having a single temporal dimension justifies it alone seems to be the likely conclusion.

I still highly doubt Future Dream was just a single dream shared by billions; way too big of a coincidence for that to be a case. "Dream of the Universe" literally just means a Dream about "Exploring the Universe." Misstar refers to dreams based on what they're about or the theme of the Dream. And if anything, it basically justifies Future Dream being Universe sized.
Click to expand...
My problem was not future dream being universe sized, it was the idea that a single dreamer created future dream. The concept of “exploring space/the universe” isn’t a unique idea for a dreamer, neither is a dream about toys or sweets.

If the revision happens and just having a temporal dimension alone is enough for Low 2-C, I’ll rescind my comments. But regarding the comment of not being able to move Peach further due to lack of solid ground, it’s shown that Mario can glide through the air in dreams from the start of the game, so the entire space is available right from the start.

The idea of a single dreamer having many dreams is true, makes sense, that doesn’t clarify that a single person made something like future dream.

Idk why you brought up subspace, like I acknowledge Mario 2 Subcon is a universal scope dream, I just don’t think there’s evidence that solely Mario made it. Actually, that wouldn’t really make sense, Subcon is treated as having existed long before Mario was dreaming in that game.
 
JJSliderman said:
My problem was not future dream being universe sized, it was the idea that a single dreamer created future dream. The concept of “exploring space/the universe” isn’t a unique idea for a dreamer, neither is a dream about toys or sweets.
Click to expand...
That would still effectively make me argue that there are many dreams like Future Dream in lore. Of course, there isn't just 1 astronomer in the Mario multiverse; there are obviously many. And each and every one of them would logically be dreaming about universes. And the same would still be dreaming them up many times over. Even having 2 to 4 people who know each other share a dream is actually quite rare. Also, when "Dream worlds are called unique", that is lose. It doesn't mean there is only one Dream world about a "The Universe," or Toys, or Sweets. The ones were explore are random dreams not known who dreamt of them individually. And are common themes yes, but unique just means it has a least one tiny detail slightly different from anything else. As in, there is basically a limitless number of dreams that are "Similar by different" to Future Dream.
JJSliderman said:
Idk why you brought up subspace, like I acknowledge Mario 2 Subcon is a universal scope dream, I just don’t think there’s evidence that solely Mario made it. Actually, that wouldn’t really make sense, Subcon is treated as having existed long before Mario was dreaming in that game.
Click to expand...
The one in SMB2 was specifically created by Mario, and coincidently shared by Luigi, Toad, and Peach. The one you may be thinking of was a different Subcon from BS Super Mario USA perhaps. Also, people creating Dream Worlds also can cause history to just be pre-created; and other signs about just having its own flow of time.
 
That’s not how the dream worlds are treated in 5 though, future dream is just treated as the “dream of the universe”, as opposed to one interpretation of it by one dreamer. The dreams are treated more as the collective of dreams that involve the scope of space. There has never really been an instance of a confirmed universe sized dream created by one individual dreamer in any dream focused Mario game, which is what I think would be necessary for saying that the dreams of individuals can reach universe size.

Also, why is it assumed that dream depot gathers all dreams from across the entire multiverse? All it says is that it “gathers everyone’s dreams” without specifying a range.

Subcon being created by Mario right at that moment wouldn’t make sense, it would mean he also created Wart, the being who would conquer Mario’s own dream.
 
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JJSliderman said:
That’s not how the dream worlds are treated in 5 though, future dream is just treated as the “dream of the universe”, as opposed to one interpretation of it by one dreamer. The dreams are treated more as the collective of dreams that involve the scope of space. There has never really been an instance of a confirmed universe sized dream created by one individual dreamer in any dream focused Mario game, which is what I think would be necessary for saying that the dreams of individuals can reach universe size.

Also, why is it assumed that dream depot gathers all dreams from across the entire multiverse? All it says is that it “gathers everyone’s dreams” without specifying a range.
Click to expand...
That doesn't make any sense and sounds like you're implying the exact opposite of what's literally stated here
j2bD0Z8.png

Future Dream is literally just one dream; period. And there are many, not just 5. Your claims about "Treated" just seem downright blasphemous to what's literally in our face.

We have evidence that even characters from the afterlife have dreams, even ghosts have dreams, and even hemoglobins inside Bowser have dreams. Such as sleep walking or talking in their sleep. And even characters native to those Dream worlds also fall asleep and have Dreams is the icing on the cake.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
That doesn't make any sense and sounds like you're implying the exact opposite of what's literally stated here
j2bD0Z8.png

Future Dream is literally just one dream; period. And there are many, not just 5. Your claims about "Treated" just seem downright blasphemous to what's literally in our face.

We have evidence that even characters from the afterlife have dreams, even ghosts have dreams, and even hemoglobins inside Bowser have dreams. Such as sleep walking or talking in their sleep. And even characters native to those Dream worlds also fall asleep and have Dreams is the icing on the cake.
Click to expand...
How exactly does this prove the idea one person is having this universal scope dream? It just says that DD gathers everyone’s dreams. It doesn’t ascribe any of the dreams to any individual. If anything, other dream focused Mario media displays the idea that dream worlds being conglomerates is a common occurrence across even a city or mountain wide scale.

The only thing that might make it viable is Mario supposedly dreaming the entirety of Mario 2 Subcon, but there hasn’t been a source provided for that. Subcon in the context of Mario 2 is just referred to as a “world of dreams”, rather than Mario’s dream specifically.

The last paragraph just addresses the idea that there are a lot of sentient beings that can dream in Mario, as opposed to the actual size of those dreams, so I don’t see the point of it.
 
But if the argument is that there is infinite dreams within the scope of Mario’s universe and that each dream has the potential to be universe sized with either one or multiple joined together, and Dream Depot can hold every single dream that will ever be made all at once then…sure, I suppose. I might take a look at the evidence for an infinite amount of dreams later and see if it holds up.
 
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JJSliderman said:
Subcon in the context of Mario 2 is just referred to as a “world of dreams”, rather than Mario’s dream specifically.
Click to expand...
Please bother to check past threads then say this, First check SMB2 ending and mind you, it was already stated that each person has it's own subcon and there are as many subcons as the number of dreams they see
 
Yeah if anything the narration says the one subcon seen in smb2 truly is one of many, with mario's dream / mind alone holding it.

There isnt any given distinction and rather its a parallel support there between the one subcon in smb2 and the ones talked about in bs super mario usa being as numerous as the amount of people dreaming, at least in terms of cosmology, with only one subcon being threatened out of many subcon in the events of smb2, regardless of origin.
 
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Mephistus said:
Yeah if anything the narration says the one subcon seen in smb2 truly is one of many, with mario's dream / mind alone holding it.
Click to expand...
All it says is that Mario saw it in his dream. Not that Subcon was solely his own dream.

I’m also still unsure why this would inherently prove every Subcon is universal, obviously everyone has a dream world but it’s never said they all are the same scope. I would say the same about any dream cosmology ftr, like Maginaryworld in Sonic has the same issue.
 
Boop.

Its very directly stated to be all a part of Mario's dream / Mario's Dream in the dark horse encyclopedia released by Nintendo for SMB2, although this seems to be reaching semantics if you don't think the other one is specific enough. I mean it corresponds since the population of dreamers being proportional to the # of Subcons would support that they dream it up with the number necessarily increasing the amount of Subcons with new dreamers being born for the narration statement to be true.

The main argument I can give for the scope would be that the name Subcon is the identifier/descriptor of the whole dimension itself in Club Nintendo, official info released by Nintendo. There's supplementary that calls the name of the "dream world" to be "Subcon". The parallel dimension shown in BS Super Mario USA has the indistinguishable outer space scope and planet settings with the stars being the same location in the sky (notice the new dream they go into has the identical pyramid settings), with it being stated that the antagonists that fled the first Subcon and are even shown on screen stealing/transporting the Gold Mario statues set up by the King in the initial Subcon to another parallel dimension also conveniently treated as a copy dimension called a Subcon that was suffering once they returned by the narration. Its pretty easily setup as the dimensions being the same place and described as the same thing, another "Subcon".
 
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This thread was made before this one was. And they did add a lot of important information that kind of is even more blunt about stuff commonly debated. But Dream worlds being their own Space-Time Continuums was quite literally spelled out to us. And that the Subcon that the entirety of BS Super Mario USA was was just one of many Subcons. There are as many Subcons as there are persons dreams.

Hopefully those two scans pretty permanently clears any doubts about the minimum size of the multiverse then.
 
Mephistus said:
I don't think we consider the Nintendo Adventure Books as canon since they change up lore with the mushroom kingdom location and cause contradictions for this.
Click to expand...
I mean didn't Nintendo of America make the plot of Super Mario Bros. 2? If they gave it the official seal I would assume they made would at least make sure it didn't contradict what little official lore existed at the time.
 
They are stated on the covers to be "based on" the settings but i don't think they are considered properly part of the continuity or that they couldn't add fluff.
 
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