Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

[Eficiente]

How do you believe that this responds my question, in any way? And how do you believe that I don't know the other stuff you said?

 

[The_Smashor]

IF YOU KNOW THAT THEN HOW DO YOU STILL THINK THESE NERFS ARE RIGHT?!

 

[Eficiente]

If he precedes time then the god-tiers may as well have infinite speed.

@Smashor Sorry but I kinda have to assume "the worst" from your answer.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I question why people think yelling in all caps makes their arguments stronger. Like this isn't emphasis. just screaming...

 

[The_Smashor]

Being stronger than a Low 2-C makes you Low 2-C. I don't see the debate here. This isn't like tier 5 base Sonic where the feats are iffy. Master Hand is blatantly above a Low 2-C character. And as I mentioned before, being the sole source of creation in a universe and no known source of creation predating them implies they created the universe.

 

[Eficiente]

So, you disagree with Saikou, Matt, Assalt and me on some stuff but agree on the stuff everyone agrees with, basically.

 

[The_Smashor]

Why wouldn't I? Being far above a Low 2-C makes you at least a Low 2-C. This isn't hard.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why is Master Hand "far above" Arceus and Palkia?

 

[The_Smashor]

He's the final boss. That should make him superior to any Assist Trophy or Pokeball Pokemon. Including Arceus.

 

[Eficiente]

@Smashor Only you are talking about that. I don't want to sound arrogant for repeating something basic more than once, but you need to read the thread, all of it. You clearly didn't, or didn't get what even is about.

 

[The_Smashor]

I don't need to. Your points are all probably invalid. Master Hand is stronger than Smash Arceus and Smash Dialga for the same reason that Asriel is stronger than Omega Flowey and Chara or that Heaven Ascension DIO is superior to Diavolo and Funny Valentine. Smash Arceus and Smash Dialga were fodderized and made to possess characters by Galeem. Master Hand was considered strong enough to duplicate directly.

 

[Warren_Valion]

He's the final boss. That should make him superior to any Assist Trophy or Pokeball Pokemon. Including Arceus.

Assist Trophies can hurt and injure the roster.

The same roster that defeats Master Hand, and beings stronger than Master Hand, constantly, in every game.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah. And the roster can defeat Arceus and Master Hand can still damage them. What is your point here?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yeah. And the roster can defeat Arceus and Master Hand can still damage them. What is your point here?

That they are all comparable to one another. That Master Hand isn't "far above" Arceus and Palika as you claim.

 

[The_Smashor]

Well that still makes him Low 2-C.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Isn't Galeem and Dharkon's best feat 3-A? And aren't they the strongest characters in the series?

 

[The_Smashor]

Then their Low 2-C for being better than Master Hand, who you and I just proved as definitively Low 2-C. You probably just used a fallacy.

 

[Eficiente]

@Any admin Please help.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Wouldn't they be 2-C for reaching Purgatorio and Subspace? Anyway, they're Low 2-C for being >MH/CH

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah admin. Close this. Because it's pointless and has been clearly disproven.

This entire post is just argumentum ad nauseum fallacy at this point.

As a wise man with a Jerry profile picture once said: "Hakai this thread"

 

[Warren_Valion]

Then their Low 2-C for being better than Master Hand, who you and I just proved as definitively Low 2-C. You probably just used a fallacy.

I proved they are all comparable with one another, and I just stated the fact that the strongest characters in the series have a weaker feat showing, it implies that the Low 2-C feat that is being used by a weaker character is, in fact, an outlier.

This is the same logic that downgraded Bayonetta character's speed, and I see no reason for why isn't sound here.

"You probably just used a fallacy." What does this even mean? You can't refute my argument, so you claim it's a fallacy to dimish its value without proving it? If I have used and are still using a fallacy, then prove it to me and everyone else in the thread,

And please stop with this elitist attitude, it is supercilious, annoying, and portrays you as nothing more than a fanboy who doesn't want one of his favorite verses to be downgraded. I'm not saying you are that kind of person, but you are portraying that kind of attitude.

Please act more professional in future debates.

 

[The_Smashor]

You are assuming that because a character's strongest personal feat is High 3-A and their stronger than a character who has a Low 2-C feat they can't be Low 2-C. A Low 2-C character can still easily preform a High 3-A feat, so that logic is broken, even if I couldn't find a fallacy on the wiki for it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You are assuming that because a character's strongest personal feat is High 3-A and their stronger than a character who has a Low 2-C feat they can't be Low 2-C. A Low 2-C character can still easily preform a High 3-A feat, so that logic is broken, even if I couldn't find a fallacy on the wiki for it.

The feat is 3-A, not High 3-A. And 3-A is literally two infinities below Low 2-C.

Again, this is the same logic that downgraded the speed for Bayonetta characters, who used to all scale to a fodder character whose feat was, IIRC, millions of times greater than the god tiers of the verse.

The difference between AP, in this case, is literally infinitely greater than the difference in speed with Bayonetta characters.

I don't see why the same logic wouldn't apply to Smash.

And again, if I'm using a fallacy in logic, then explain it to me. Otherwise, it comes off as you using a defensive maneuver to try and belittle my argument. A maneuver that's based on feelings instead of facts and logic.

 

[The_Smashor]

READ. MY. WORDS. A. TIER. TWO. CHARACTER. CAN. PREFORM. A . TIER. THREE. FEAT.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Any admin Please help.

 

[Warren_Valion]

READ. MY. WORDS. A. TIER. TWO. CHARACTER. CAN. PREFORM. A . TIER. THREE. FEAT.

Writing in all caps doesn't make your argument any more apparent, it just makes you seem more puerile.

And why yes, what you said is true. What I said is also true.

Have you read a single one of my rebuttals? I explain how the Low 2-C feat is likely an outlier by comparing it to a similar scenario regarding Bayonetta characters and what their speed ratings used to be.

 

[The_Smashor]

It is not an outlier. Master Hand is superior to a character, who's ONLY FEAT is Low 2-C. There is literally no room for outliers there. Can somebody hakai this already?

 

[Warren_Valion]

It is not an outlier. Master Hand is superior to a character, who's ONLY FEAT is Low 2-C. There is literally no room for outliers there. Can somebody hakai this already?

I thought Master Hand was Low 2-C for scaling above or around Arceus and Palika? What feat did he do that was Low 2-C?

If you are going to say that he is Low 2-C for creating the World of Trophies, I must remind you that we all came to the conclusion to drop such a notion in Saikou's previous post:

"I re-state my feelings:

-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A"

And like I said, I believe the feats to be outliers, as stronger characters with their most notable attack was only able to produce a level of energy that is two whole infinities lower than said weaker character's feats.


And trying to silence a current discussion because someone doesn't agree with your point of view helps absolutely no one.

 

[The_Smashor]

Fine. But can we agree that, in some way shape or form, Master Hand and everyone who scales from him is Low 2-C? Because I've proved this numerous times.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Fine. But can we agree that, in some way shape or form, Master Hand and everyone who scales from him is Low 2-C? Because I've proved this numerous times.

I think Master Hand and everyone else in the series is comparable to one another since they've all fought one another. I disagree with them being Low 2-C though. I believe them to be 3-A, for the reasons I've stated in my previous posts. I have stated this numerous times.

I think an, "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" rating could work though. However, the discrepancy in feats needs to be made apparent.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I agree with Warren.

 

[The_Smashor]

I don't. I don't see why the 3-A need to be there. It's as redundant Sportacus' 7-C was.

 

[TriforcePower1]

(*Sigh*)

I'll see what I can do here.

Fiction doesn't really consider the gap that big 99% of the time. Also, with a logic like that a 3-A character performing a Low 2-C feat is an outlier as much as a 10-C doing the same feat because the gap between their tiers and Low 2-C is the same.

Master Hand is still one of the strongest beings of the verse. While there aren't a lot of characters outside the Smashers, it doesn't change that he's far from fodder.

Galeem can reuse the Light Beam attack rather casually in the Bad ending if you choose to kill Dharkon. This feat should be 2-C but that's for an another time.

Smashor, calm down. Admins, please help.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Also, Galeem didn't even want to destroy the space-time of the universe, he just physically destroyed it and recreated his own World of Light because he also wanted his own world like his emo echo figher. A tier 7 character would only destroy a building if he only wanted to destroy that single building.

 

[The_Smashor]

Master Hand has a Tier 2 feat in Smash 4. If Galeem and Dharkon didn't have tier 3 feats this probably wouldn't be an arguement.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Master Hand has a Tier 2 feat in Smash 4. If Galeem and Dharkon didn't have tier 3 feats this probably wouldn't be an arguement.

Saying he has a feat is meaningless unless you show it. But they do have a 3-A feat, and so this is an argument.

 

[Jinsye]

Are we really arguing that with a Low 2-C feat is an outlier because a stronger character did a 3-A feat?

Stronger characters do lesser feats than lower characters all the time, powerscaling exists.

The characters also have two feats, one is Low 2-C iirc. Not much room for outliers there.

This also isn't contradictory of anything.

 

[The_Smashor]

They have a Low 2-C feat. That they had before the 3-A feat. Meaning they were established as Low 2-C before getting the 3-A feat. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

The whole being at least equal to Dialga who is Low 2-C was because of a trophy description.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@TriforcePower1

What Fiction dictates is irrelavant. This is our tier system.

And yes, they are both outliers unless their is a reason for the discrepency. Case in point, Goku from DBS is 3-A for most of the series.

In the Zamasu arc, when Zamasu becomes Low 2-C, Goku states that if he was at full strength he would be able to defeat Infinite Zamasu, but that was considered an outlier and disgareded.

In the next arc, he started getting scaling above said Low 2-C character in the series. It would have also been considered an outlier, if not for said power being obtainable by a new form that has legendary power.

There was a reason for an increase in power, so it is considered legitamate.

Other examples might not be the case.


And still, it is Galeem's most notable attack and it only did a certain amount of damage..

He had to take all the Master Hand clones, condense their energy, and then disperce it out, and after a while it overtook all life in the universe. It's not the most casual of feats.

 

[Eficiente]

@Any admin Please help.

I had the best of intentions, I would be very grateful if someone cleans this derailing.