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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

The Smashor said:
They have a Low 2-C feat. That they had before the 3-A feat. Meaning they were established as Low 2-C before getting the 3-A feat. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
The whole being at least equal to Dialga who is Low 2-C was because of a trophy description.
Click to expand...
No, state what the feat is, show what the feat is.

Don't just state that they have the feat without proof of said feat.
 
Dialge is Low 2-C by being born. This is in his trophy description. You have probably already seen said trophy description. This was in Sm4sh. Due to Master Core spirits being in Smash Ultimate that means Sm4sh probably comes before it canoncially. That means Master Hand had a Low 2-C feat, canonically, came before Galeem's 3-A feat.

Here's the trophy description quote from Sm4sh. A similar quote is also in brawl.

The concept of time has always been one of the world's great mysteries, but Dialga might hold the answer. Legend has it that Dialga's birth caused time to begin moving! It's no surprise that the people of Sinnoh see this Pokémon as a deity. If you're ever running late, maybe you could ask Dialga to do you a favour and turn back the clock.

Now then, I gotta go.
 
Warren Valion said:
And still, it is Galeem's most notable attack and it only did a certain amount of damage..

He had to take all the Master Hand clones, condense their energy, and then disperce it out, and after a while it overtook all life in the universe. It's not the most casual of feats.
Click to expand...
Bad Ending. Dharkon is defeated, Galeem emits light and does exactly the same feat without absorbing MHs and he did that much faster. The reason it's 3-A and not Low 2-C is simply because he didn't care about changing space-time.
 
The Smashor said:
Dialge is Low 2-C by being born. This is in his trophy description. You have probably already seen said trophy description. This was in Sm4sh. Due to Master Core spirits being in Smash Ultimate that means Sm4sh probably comes before it canoncially. That means Master Hand had a Low 2-C feat, canonically, came before Galeem's 3-A feat.
Click to expand...
That's not Master Hand doing the feat, it's Master Hand scaling to a feat that was done by another character. That's not the same thing.

And why does the timing of the feat have any relevance at all?

Irenic's speed feat in Bayonetta happened before the god tiers' speed feat and hat still didn't stop that downgrade, why should a trophy from Brawl and Smash 4 stop this downgrade?


And @Eficiente, How is this derailing, isn't this still discussing the primary point of this thread? That being the legitimacy of Low 2-C Smash characters.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I re-state my feelings:
-Drop the whole "Master Hand is Low 2-C via creating the world of Trophies and seeing it as fiction". It's dumb. It's ain't making no sense. It's speculatory and hasn't been concretely supported by anything, on top of having been endlessly contradicted by MH being beaten by stuff from the world he supposedly created.

-Scale Master Hand to other Low 2-C feats (Dialga creating time according to its trophy description, Palkia controlling "All of Space", Arceus having created the world, Tabuu causing Subspace to be destroyed with his death, etc.)

-Even if none of the feats above pass, Galeem and Dharkon should remain minimally 3-A
Click to expand...
I feel we should go over this and move forward.

Giygas3 made a thread explaining his disagreements on the trophy descriptions being legitimate Low 2-C feats and I think that's where we should restart this debate.
 
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2505708

This thread shows that Master Hand is:

A: Probably 4D or at least close

B: Probably holds back against the fighters

and

C: Master Core Probably isn't Master Hand not holding back.

If you couldn't tell from all the uses of the word "Probably", I'm changing my vote from "Low 2-C or the highway" to "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C"
 
I disagree with Dialga's Trophy Description not being Low 2-C. "Set time in motion" is just an alternate way of saying he created it. Especially since it...doesn't make much sense to assume time was just stopped when created and that Dialga just made it "start".

Plus it's rather explicit time creation in Pokémon. I know we don't scale to the original games, but if both Smash and Pokémon have the exact same feat, just worded in a different way, completely ignoring the source material just seems foolish to me.
 
@Smashor that simply shows that while this thread can be debated, your thread is pretty much debunked or at least not to be taken as fact.
 
@Saikou "

"Set time in motion" is just an alternate way of saying he created it. "

I for one disagree. Again, with the other trophy quite clearly stating that time began to move with its birth. It's very possible that time itself was in a state of nothing occuring, and with Dialga's birth, everything then started to move.

Of course, This doesn't necessarily mean that Dialga didn't create time, but with how the trophies are described, it's unwise to try to make a definite conclusion based around these word choices.
 
Except that the very definition of time is that it flows. There is no time if time doesn't flow.

So either Dialga created time, or time was created before but then was stopped before Dialga made it flow again. Because you can't create time unless it flows. That's not how time works.
 
@Saikou Except... That isn't true in these types of cases.

Let me give you an analogy: If a character used time-stop on an Universal scale. Time itself wouldn't be changing - Nothing would be moving in space. Does this mean time doesn't exist because one stopped time? Of course not. Now, once a character's Time-stop ended, time itself began to move, and things within space started now moving as well. It's like that. Time itself exists, but nothing changes. When Dialga was born - Time began to move, things changed.
 
@Matthew Yes, it's just semantics. Which is important to see what's actually being meant by certain phrases....
 
"Things changing" is pretty much the definition of time though. And time stop is, actually, pretty much the same as time not existing, it's just treated differently in fiction and by proxy, by us.
 
@Saikou "And time stop is, actually, pretty much the same as time not existing, it's just treated differently in fiction and by proxy, by us."

That's Cause and Affect, that's not exactly what time is. Regardless, I agree with your general premise. However, you just stated that fiction treats it differently - So why should we treat this any differentiy?
 
What is the argument here? I am pretty sure that regardless, Dialga is still a universal creator is Smash.
 
If something is fundamentally wrong yet done often by fiction, we still don't assume it automatically without good reasons. And we lack those reasons here. We have no reasons to assume that time was created beforehand and just "started" by Dialga nor reasons to assume that time being "stopped" before creation is any different from time just not existing.

@Dragon This guy right there arguing that setting time in motion =/= creating it, which is, as Matt said, semantics.
 
I see no reason to assume Dialga didn't create time as that just contradicts the character in general. Yeah, it's the Smash version, but Dialga is still has lore based off his series of origin. It's honestly cherrypicking details and needlessly arguing semantics when the answer is just simple. Dialga created time. Unless you can prove that time was stopped beforehand and that it existed beforehand.
 
Do we know that these trophy descriptions are describing the Smash versions of the character, or if they are just describing the character from their verse?

The "setting time in motion" feat, which I do agree with Matt and Saikou as Low 2-C, might just be the trophy explaining who Dialga is in Pokemon, not that Smash Dialga did such a feat in the Smashverse.

I think I even remember reading that Dialga does a very similar feat in Pokemon or something?
 
@Warren Going to be honest with you, there is absolutely no difference between the "Smash" version and the "original" version of the characters in-universe. It's pretty much something we did by ourselves to prevent from having 2-B everyone. So the statement applies to both.

Besides, trophies are trophies of the actual Smash character, so it would definitively apply to Smash Dialga either way.
 
@Saik I wholeheartedly disagree with Smash version and original version of characters being the same in-universe. Where did you even get that assertion?
 
On what grounds? The narrative of the characters being toys is inconsistent at best, due to being contradicted by the characters living in their own universe and referring to past events of their own franchise like it happened to them.

You could argue that those are "fake memories", but that's extrapolation based on an inconsistent scenario.
 
I feel like there's potential for multiversal+ something with Viridi's statement, btw. Though it may just be limited to range.
 
cal no

No one has ever interacted with those timelines, be it in the original games or Smash itself, so they're not really relevant.
 
The toy stuff since 64 is inconsistent yes, but the alternative that you speak of, ignoring the extreme cosmology contradictions, would still be the equivalent the most contradictory and altered set of verses clustered in one, ie far worst.

Hell, the inconsistencies alone point to the fact that none of the characters in Smash are actually the characters in their respective franchises.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I see no reason to assume Dialga didn't create time as that just contradicts the character in general. Yeah, it's the Smash version, but Dialga is still has lore based off his series of origin. It's honestly cherrypicking details and needlessly arguing semantics when the answer is just simple. Dialga created time. Unless you can prove that time was stopped beforehand and that it existed beforehand.
Click to expand...
Looking at Master Hand's page, This makes no sense to me given Master Hand's AP. His AP is Universe level+ (Created the Smash Bros universe and upon his death the Universe ceases to exist). This means he hand to create space and time as well to reach low 2-C.

But Dialga created Time... Do you see the problem with that?.
 
I mean it's pretty obvious to me that the entire series doesn't take place in a single universe, given that where the characters are most often seen together (The World of Trophy I guess) is a neutral universe that isn't part of anyone else's verse. Not sure why you assume that they're all in the same universe at all time.
 
Well you did kinda forget to mention that they are also all arbitarily transported to this one neutral universe where everyone canonically dead and alive coexist.
 
I'm fairly sure I debunked Dialga's trophy being Low 2-C a while back and people agreed...
 
@Saikou

It literally says on Master Hand's page (Treats his version of Palkia and Dialga as toys).

That needs to be fixed because it sounds like they are apart of his universe. My apologies for the misinterpretation.
 
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