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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

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Antvasima said:
Well, we should probably briefly mention that the real world reason is just that the different writers have very different ideas regarding how powerful Thor is, and I also have second thoughts about getting rid of his "5-B when holding back immensely in Earthly settings" tier, given that it might create a scaling mess.
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So should we keep the 5-B tier or get rid of it? I am not sure which is the better solution here, but we need to make certain to create coherent and logical scaling chains for all of the Marvel Comics characters.

Also, is it fine if we just admit outright to our visitors that the real reason why Thor and other characters have variable tiers is because the writers largely contradict each other to an extreme degree in this area? Regardless whether or not Thor ends up with 5-B to 2-C or 3-C to 2-C.
 
Okay. You do not think that this will create scaling problems, given the sheer number of 5-B characters that have held their own against Thor, then?
 
Well, there are a few 5-B feats at least, including one from the Grey Hulk, and another from Gilgamesh, but we will likely have to rewrite a lot of statistics justifications in that regard and also write footnotes in Thor's and Silver Surfer's pages regarding that other characters should not scale to them if they did not repeatedly fight against them at their peaks, or if it is too inconsistent with their power level portrayals outside of this.
 
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Okay. I suppose that we can scrap the 5-B statistics for Thor, the Surfer, and similar characters after all then, but again, we have to try to handle the scaling chains very carefully and rationally.

Feel free to continue to try to figure out how to proceed in this regard then.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, is it fine if we just admit outright to our visitors that the real reason why Thor and other characters have variable tiers is because the writers largely contradict each other to an extreme degree in this area? Regardless whether or not Thor ends up with 5-B to 2-C or 3-C to 2-C.
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Thor doesn’t have a Varies tier in the first place, and what you’re suggesting would give the impression that a character can get a Varies tier just because they’re inconsistent, which we don’t do.
 
ObberGobb said:
I think we should clearly lay out what is required for a character to scale to 3-C or 2-C. If they don't meet the requirements, then they simply shouldn't scale at all. So get rid of the 5-B end, and just have "3-C normally, 2-C at peak." No more scaling to "holding back" at all.
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We already do this to a certain degree, but yes, listing Thor and the others (like Hercules, BRB, etc) as “3-C normally, 2-C at peak” would be the most accurate way to do this.
 
ObberGobb said:
I think we should clearly lay out what is required for a character to scale to 3-C or 2-C. If they don't meet the requirements, then they simply shouldn't scale at all. So get rid of the 5-B end, and just have "3-C normally, 2-C at peak." No more scaling to "holding back" at all.
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This is fine with me in itself, but we probably need to lay out some clear rational scaling rule safeguards in our Marvel Comics verse page.
 
Looks like our 3-C scaling page already lists some conditions for a character scaling to a 3-C Full Power, such as fighting them while they're in a bloodlusted state or in a scenario where they have no reason to hold back.
Antvasima said:
This is fine with me in itself, but we probably need to lay out some clear rational scaling rule safeguards in our Marvel Comics verse page.
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Something along these lines should work I think:

Please refrain from attempting to scale other Marvel Comics characters to the full power statistics of (Thor/Silver Surfer) without explicit evidence they are performing at their peaks, as they are known to hold back immensely. The characters in question often perform at various levels of powers since they have complete control over their strength levels, and can very well operate at much lower power levels.
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Also I agree with scrapping "5-B when holding back" for related characters that do not have Variable power mechanics. That never made a ton of sense seeing as Thor can pull his punches to the point where High 8-Cs or even 10-Bs can survive his attacks. Footnotes forbidding scaling to them should be enough.
 
Thank you for helping out.

Maybe something like this would work?

"Please refrain from attempting to scale other Marvel Comics characters to the full power statistics of superheroes at a 3-C or 2-C scale of power without explicit evidence that the second mention are performing at their peaks, as they are known to hold back immensely. The characters in question often perform at various levels of power, due to a mixture of extreme degrees of control over their power outputs and inconsistencies between different writers. In addition, such scaling has to make sufficiently coherent logical sense in the context of other feats for the affected characters."
 
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To note
You can't get Low Multiverse level durability from 2 universes collapsing like this for a few reasons. They only do so in the present, they only affect Hyperion in the present. A human-sized part between those universes isn't taking 2-C amounts of power, the 2-C power is the whole feat of the universes collapsing, this is environmental destruction, not something like a bomb blowing up in his face. The feat's unquantifiable as there is no way to know how much power went for every small part of the universe to be reduced to a white nothing. 2-C is also more than just destroying 2 universes, but the space between them too, and the universes were already too close when Hyperion took them collapsing.
I remember The Impress saying that the feat was much weaker due to the size of the dimension being far smaller than a universe, but idk based on what. The feat is very odd, it cannot be Low 2-C at all first of all, you can clearly see & it's stated that fragments of the terrain around and across the the universe survived for a long while, so the universe being destroyed cannot mean that it no longer has a past, present & future, but simply that it got destroyed normally, as it would have been standard to assume from the start anyway.

For it to be 3-A you would need to argue for some pretty hard environmental destruction to be going on, as the epicenter of what happened only got the terrain around fractured. It's likely that the realm wasn't even universe-size to begin with;
  • The comic doesn't imply as much.
  • It is later in a recap of those events in Defenders #1 that it's quickly stated that the universe was destroyed. The dialogue had already called the place a dimension, so it's not impossible that they meant to use another word for reality rather than to compare it to the real universe (The points below make me say that).
  • In Incredible Hulk Vol 1 issue 269 Dark-Crawler refers to the dimension/realm as a "dimension-between-dimensions"; any dimension is "between-dimensions", so to specify it to be a "dimension-between-dimensions" implies it to be a weird dimension in between regular dimensions.
  • In the comic where the feat happens Night/Dark-Crawler says "My dimension is a pathway to worlds which lie beyond!", like the universe, which is "adjacent" to it, Bruce having crossed a "forbidden border" to be there, and by the end of the battle Dark-Crawler saying that other dimensions existed alongside that one, sending the cast to the universe of his enemies, the Undying Ones, who wanted to use Dark-Crawler's dimension as a pathway to invade the main universe. So the Undying Ones' universe and the main universe are real universes with Dark-Crawler's dimension being adjacent & in between them as a pathway for both of them and more dimensions.
  • The Marvel Legacy The 1980's Handbook and Official Handbook of the Marvel-Universe A to Z portray the feat in an underwhelming manner, only saying that they destroyed all the realm's land masses.
Also in Defenders Vol 2 issue 1 Dark-Crawler is dragged from his home dimension to Earth against his will and by the end he returns to his home dimension, and Official Handbook of the Marvel-Universe A to Z specifies this dimension to be the same one as the one in which he was fighting the Hulk (It's called "Dark Dimension", but it's not Darmammu's Dark Dimension, I wasn't saying it to avoid confusion). So, that throw away line in Defenders #1 was misleading, that "universe" wasn't completely destroyed, just mostly destroyed to the point of being momentarily uninhabitable.
Could be poetic. "The fabric of" doesn't necessarily refer to all of something but a fundamental part of it, it being hyped out by being called "the fabric of" or "the very fabric of", so the fabric of infinity may refer to all infinity or a part of infinity itself, super complex as it may be, around where the feat is happening.
This feat's unquantifiable. They are fighting in the Crossroads, a dimension that has open doors to an infinite number of universes. To say that in their fight their "consecutive force" "reverberates along the pathways leading from the Crossreads to an infinite number of dimensions" is far less impressive than the description you gave to the feat. The reverberation happens on the pathways, and since the pathways lead to infinite universes, that means "universes are being affected by this", not that "all infinite universes are being affected by this at once". The consecutive force of their fight is causing this, it's not even, meaning that the total amount of universes affected by the end isn't even the same as the universes affected per blow thrown in a measurable way. As in, Hulk punches enemy A, thus there are shakes in the Earths of universes 1 & 2 but not in universes 3 & 4, enemy A punches Hulk, thus there are shakes in Earths of universes 3 & 4, but not in universes 1 & 2, we don't know.
Well, there is a good argument to be made that this doesn't apply due to the Beyonder's retcon, which resets his staments and dealings with power to a much lower level, like the galaxy he destroyed at the start being just an illusion he made to appear to be that powerful -- implying even that to be too much.
That could be poetic due to its power. The feat is for the Blood Colossus, not Thor.

We don't just assume it has the same rules & mechanics as Greek mythology would if you over analyze it, the feat's unquantifiable. We can probably assume that all of that falls if someone doesn't lift it, which would be Interstellar LS.
Ok mostly. There are shakes but "all levels of reality" aren't being shaked; mystical energies are being unleashed in them, which is not the same. That bit would simply be range, the rest of the feat is good.
 
Antvasima said:
"Please refrain from attempting to scale other Marvel Comics characters to the full power statistics of superheroes at a 3-C or 2-C scale of power without explicit evidence that the second mention are performing at their peaks, as they are known to hold back immensely. The characters in question often perform at various levels of power, due to a mixture of extreme degrees of control over their power outputs and inconsistencies between different writers. In addition, such scaling has to make sufficiently coherent logical sense in the context of other feats for the affected characters."
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Looks perfect (y)
 
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Antvasima said:
Okay. Would you be willing to handle it, @Maverick_Zero_X ?
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Added:

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Marvel Comics

For detailed information about this franchise from the Marvel Comics Wiki, you can click here. Marvel Comics is a comic book publishing company that has created many iconic superheroes such as Spider-Man, Iron Man, Wolverine, the Hulk, and Captain America, alongside many others. Beginning in...
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So did we decide which of the feats that are genuinely reliable to scale from here? I would appreciate further help in that regard.

At the very least, the Beyonder measuring the Hulk's power as infinite, and Hyperion enduring being in the center of two universes getting destroyed seem very straigthforward.
 
Eficiente said:
You can't get Low Multiverse level durability from 2 universes collapsing like this for a few reasons. They only do so in the present, they only affect Hyperion in the present. A human-sized part between those universes isn't taking 2-C amounts of power, the 2-C power is the whole feat of the universes collapsing, this is environmental destruction, not something like a bomb blowing up in his face. The feat's unquantifiable as there is no way to know how much power went for every small part of the universe to be reduced to a white nothing. 2-C is also more than just destroying 2 universes, but the space between them too, and the universes were already too close when Hyperion took them collapsing.
Click to expand...
The 2-C explosion did cause “cascading energy” where literally everything, alongside the Space and time of both universes was completely erased, but hyperion.
You cant really divide 2-C energy even if he isnt tanking the full explosion
At the very least Hyperion is Low 2-C from this

Eficiente said:
In Incredible Hulk Vol 1 issue 269 Dark-Crawler refers to the dimension/realm as a "dimension-between-dimensions"; any dimension is "between-dimensions", so to specify it to be a "dimension-between-dimensions" implies it to be a weird dimension in between regular dimensions.
Click to expand...
Isnt this the exact opposite? To even call it a dimension in comparison to other dimensions implies that it is comparable to other universes in nature

Eitherway, it does seem like hulk didn't fully destroy the universe, but, if we assume dark-crawlers Universe is comparable to 616, then this feat could still be High 3-A

If too unusable, then, maybe not using it would be the safest option, afterall, we want the most solid upgrade which is why you should hook us up on some 3-A+ feats
Eficiente said:
Could be poetic. "The fabric of" doesn't necessarily refer to all of something but a fundamental part of it, it being hyped out by being called "the fabric of" or "the very fabric of", so the fabric of infinity may refer to all infinity or a part of infinity itself, super complex as it may be, around where the feat is happening.
Click to expand...
The fabric of something is its very most basic and fundamental structure, this argument could be applied if we are talking about a clothing, or a building, but an infinitely sized universe?
It could be possibly high 3-A rather then solidly

Eficiente said:
This feat's unquantifiable. They are fighting in the Crossroads, a dimension that has open doors to an infinite number of universes. To say that in their fight their "consecutive force" "reverberates along the pathways leading from the Crossreads to an infinite number of dimensions" is far less impressive than the description you gave to the feat. The reverberation happens on the pathways, and since the pathways lead to infinite universes, that means "universes are being affected by this", not that "all infinite universes are being affected by this at once". The consecutive force of their fight is causing this, it's not even, meaning that the total amount of universes affected by the end isn't even the same as the universes affected per blow thrown in a measurable way. As in, Hulk punches enemy A, thus there are shakes in the Earths of universes 1 & 2 but not in universes 3 & 4, enemy A punches Hulk, thus there are shakes in Earths of universes 3 & 4, but not in universes 1 & 2, we don't know.
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Does seem like it, alright then, seems unusable

Eficiente said:
Well, there is a good argument to be made that this doesn't apply due to the Beyonder's retcon, which resets his staments and dealings with power to a much lower level, like the galaxy he destroyed at the start being just an illusion he made to appear to be that powerful -- implying even that to be too much.
Click to expand...
I mean, The hulk is still the hulk and the beyonder is still infinite, so i dont think it would affect the statement

Eficiente said:
That could be poetic due to its power. The feat is for the Blood Colossus, not Thor.
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I am under the impression blood colossus was empowered by Mud, blood, sacrifices and Thors lightening
Hence why i thought Thor would scale

Eficiente said:
We don't just assume it has the same rules & mechanics as Greek mythology would if you over analyze it, the feat's unquantifiable. We can probably assume that all of that falls if someone doesn't lift it, which would be Interstellar LS.
Click to expand...
It's not under assumption though, The heavens has infinite weight

Even the databook uses one of the images from the comic further implying the feat is High 3-A
Eficiente said:
Ok mostly. There are shakes but "all levels of reality" aren't being shaked; mystical energies are being unleashed in them, which is not the same. That bit would simply be range, the rest of the feat is good.
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Yes, thank you for your in depth evaluation
 
MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer said:
I tried making a summary based on stuff that was discussed earlier
vsbattles.fandom.com

Marvel Champion 07/Marvel Comics Herald Tiers scaling chain

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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It still has a couple of things that I rejected earlier.
Red Ronin - Disagree, scales to Godzilla who was rejected
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Godzilla does scale.

Magus (Marvel Comics) - I dunno much about the character, but Thanos also varies between 3-C and 2-C and didn't seemed to be going all out against him, his other scaling is to Nova, who in turn scales to Quasar, who... lacks a profile apparently?
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Thanos doesn’t vary, he’s just 2-C.
 
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