Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

[Antvasima]

I don't have a set conclusion in mind for Godzilla. I am just uncertain regarding the issue.

 

[Eseseso]

Neutral on Godzilla

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Also neutral on Godzilla

 

[Lightning_XXI]

So leaving aside the Godzilla issue, about this then:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-thor-shaking-the-realms-of-the-world-tree.142674/post-5179880

I remember Lobo (Afaik) being listed with a Varies with the explanation being quite literally and directly "Too inconsistent to be rated properly", then he had a 4-B at peak for his best showings. I know, Varies is only for certain cases, but maybe we can open an exception for Marvel and DC ? Some characters would be far easier to work with that. However, that doesn't really change much on my list, who shouldn't scale to 2-C still won't scale

Btw, after the recent comments, can you guys point who in my list stops scaling/starts scaling to 2-C at peak ? This is important to keep track on so we don't lose ourselves again

About Godzilla, I'll avoid staying neutral and side with Tracer and Apex, if Hercules had to go absolutely serious, it should at least grant him a "Likely 2-C at peak"

 

[ObberGobb]

I agree with 2-C Godzilla

 

[Arceus0x]

2-C godzilla makes more sense to me. He pretty much ragdolled the avengers for a while, forced hercules to get serious, matched thor and thor compared it to the midgard serpent even if you say it's only by the way they act (which in my opinion is downplay but i don't give enough of a dime atm to argue against it)

 

[LordTracer]

I know, Varies is only for certain cases, but maybe we can open an exception for Marvel and DC ? Some characters would be far easier to work with that.

That’s not a precedent we should be setting. The Varies tier only exists for characters whose power level changes for canonical reasons. If a character is inconsistently portrayed, that’s not an excuse for a Varies tier, it means we need to put in more effort to find the proper tier for them.

 

[Eseseso]

I disagree with the Midgard Serpent thing not being strength scaling.

 

[KLOL506]

That’s not a precedent we should be setting. The Varies tier only exists for characters whose power level changes for canonical reasons. If a character is inconsistently portrayed, that’s not an excuse for a Varies tier, it means we need to put in more effort to find the proper tier for them.

Strongly agreed with this sentiment, especially for Marvel Comics where a clear scale of established power levels exist.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Okay, so if we disagree with this notion, how about we focus here only on giving the "2-C at peak" rating to those who deserve it (with the current accepted scaling) and leave the lower tiers to another thread ? This is being delayed long enough

 

[Eseseso]

Okay, so if we disagree with this notion, how about we focus here only on giving the "2-C at peak" rating to those who deserve it (with the current accepted scaling) and leave the lower tiers to another thread ? This is being delayed long enough

I wouldn't say "delayed" (and this is coming from someone who is usually not very patient). We just want the most accurate results, and this is a massive verse-wide scaling change.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, for Doom, would it just be possible to remove the low-end of his prep and say that it goes up to 2-A?

Since a bunch of his 2-C stuff is being questioned, he'll likely still have a few 2-C tech/prep feats but nowhere near the amount of 2-A stuff already on his profile, so it may be best to just remove the 3-C/2-C low end entirely.

Kind of like what we did to Odin.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Also, for Doom, would it just be possible to remove the low-end of his prep and say that it goes up to 2-A?

Since a bunch of his 2-C stuff is being questioned, he'll likely still have a few 2-C tech/prep feats but nowhere near the amount of 2-A stuff already on his profile, so it may be best to just remove the 3-C/2-C low end entirely.

Kind of like what we did to Odin.

Sure

 

[LordTracer]

Okay then, if you guys are fine with my suggestion, let's take the next step:

- Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Sentry, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Hercules and Hyperion are the currently accepted 2-Cs, right ? These are the owners of the accepted feats on that list

From this, I believe the Heralds that are likely to scale are:

• Apocalypse (Marvel Comics) = Disagree, his 3-C scaling comes from Thor on Earth (I absolutely disagree with Thor using that level of power on earth when it's stated that he doesn't use his full power here numerous times)
• Namor (Marvel Comics) = Disagree, his 3-C scaling mentions a weakened Thor and Red Hulk, who varies a lot in power and it's arbitrary to say he was at 2-C power at that point
• The Sentry = Already accepted
• Silver Surfer (Marvel Comics) = Already accepted
• Thor (Marvel Comics) = Already accepted
• Hulk (Marvel Comics) = Already accepted
• Beta Ray Bill = Already accepted
• Colossus (Marvel Comics) = Disagree with every key, as he fough a weakened Thor on Earth, the last one depends on Juggernaut, who also has a Varies that doesn't depend on himself and only fought Thor on Earth
• Emma Frost = Disagree, again, weakened Thor on Earth and only a brief fight against a non peak Hulk
• Red Hulk = Equal to Hulk I guess, should scale
• Loki (Marvel Comics) (Classic) = Agree, matched Silver Surfer and Thor numerous times, although in his case it's magic only
• She-Hulk = Unsure how we scale Devil Hulk, but her being comparable to Thor isn't about his Peak Power so unlikely, I guess
• Onslaught = Agree, Hulk was apparently at his peak or close to it
• Juggernaut (Marvel Comics) = Already explained above, Disagree
• The Champion of the Universe = Agree, defeated two of the 2-Cs here and overpowered Thanos
• Cyclops (Marvel Comics) = Some of his keys only have feats against Weakened Thor on Earth, but the other one is apparently enough to scale
• Red She-Hulk = Unsure, her only scaling is to Devil Hulk, which I don't know how it will work
• Magik (Marvel Comics) = Disagree, Weakened Thor on Earth
• Mindless Ones (Marvel) = Agree, harming Ego puts them above Thor by his own words
• Latveria = Wielding the Power Cosmic alone isn't enough for 2-C
• Kobik = Doesn't scale to any 2-C
• Maestro = Agree, same as The Hulk
• Godzilla (Marvel Comics) = Equal to the Midgard Serpeant who doesn't scale to Peak Thor as far as I know
• Wakanda (Marvel Comics) = Scaling to Silver Surfer's max power, so I guess so
• Drax the Destroyer (Marvel Comics) = His current self is a no no, his Classic self should have a "Likely 2-C at peak" considering his Thanos scaling, I wouldn't use his SS scaling since Norrin wasn't fighting at peak (Didn't had a reason to aswell)
• Genis-Vell = Agree, not that complicated
• Ultron (Marvel Comics) Okay, so his first key shouldn't scale as his feats against Thor are on Earth (2-C Thor on earth is not reasonable at all), his second key is scaled to Sentry, so I guess it's okay if he was at peak mental condition, his third key is scaled to Adam Warlock's third key I think, who is scaled to Silver Surfer, should be enough for a "2-C at peak", if Norrin was going all out
• Kurse (Waziria) = I guess so ? It has scaling to The Destroyer
• Iron Man Armor Model 37 = Disagree, it's scaling to Mokk who doesn't scale to Peak Thor
• Doctor Doom = Numerous scalings to other 2-Cs and scaling to even stuff beyond that, absolutely agree
• Executioner (Marvel Comics) = Unsure, but doesn't seem to be pushing Thor or BRB to their limits
• Hercules (Marvel Comics) = Already accepted
• Daimon Hellstrom (Marvel Comics) = Seems fine, has numerous scalings against already accepted 2-Cs
• Satana Hellstrom (Marvel Comics) = Already is 2-C
• Jane Foster (Marvel Comics) = Same as Thor as...Thor, her 2nd key shouldn't have "2-C at peak" since Thor wasn't at his best
• Cassandra Nova (Marvel Comics) = Her scaling is only a Possibly already, so I also Disagree
• Exodus (Marvel Comics) = Isn't 3-C to begin with

Only took the Tier 5/3 overlaps, there are more people to talk about, but it's a first step anyway

This is the list of characters that may or may not scale, right?

 

[Eseseso]

The only 2-C stuff that hasn't been disagreed with for Doom's tech/prep is:

1. Him giving Terrax an artificial Power Cosmic that he created and said himself to be on par with what Silver Surfer has.

2. Him absorbing Silver Surfer's power.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I wouldn't say "delayed" (and this is coming from someone who is usually not very patient). We just want the most accurate results, and this is a massive verse-wide scaling change.

I understand, but we need more focus aswell, no reason to start yet another complicated topic over the current scaling if that can be discussed on a specific Thread, it helps both sides to debate better (The 2-C ratings would be applied and taken into consideration when re-doing some holding back scaling, don't you think that's vital ?)

Also, for Doom, would it just be possible to remove the low-end of his prep and say that it goes up to 2-A?

Since a bunch of his 2-C stuff is being questioned, he'll likely still have a few 2-C tech/prep feats but nowhere near the amount of 2-A stuff already on his profile, so it may be best to just remove the 3-C/2-C low end entirely.

Kind of like what we did to Odin.

That works for me yeah

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

This is the list of characters that may or may not scale, right?

Yes.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

This is the list of characters that may or may not scale, right?

Actually only half of it

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-thor-shaking-the-realms-of-the-world-tree.142674/page-7#post-5178509

Here is the full list (on the end)

 

[LordTracer]

Alright then, time for me to question a lot of these.

Apocalypse (Marvel Comics) = Disagree, his 3-C scaling comes from Thor on Earth (I absolutely disagree with Thor using that level of power on earth when it's stated that he doesn't use his full power here numerous times)

Both Thor and Jane were stated to be enraged while going against Apocalypse, which would be a point against them holding back.

Namor (Marvel Comics) = Disagree, his 3-C scaling mentions a weakened Thor and Red Hulk, who varies a lot in power and it's arbitrary to say he was at 2-C power at that point

Fair enough.

Emma Frost = Disagree, again, weakened Thor on Earth and only a brief fight against a non peak Hulk

Nope, 1/2 PF Emma scales to 1/2 PF Cyclops who absolutely scales above Thor. She scales. Her 1/5 PF key not scaling is fine.

Juggernaut (Marvel Comics) = Already explained above, Disagree

Juggernaut threw hands with Green Scar Hulk, there’s an argument to be made for him scaling.

Cyclops (Marvel Comics) = Some of his keys only have feats against Weakened Thor on Earth, but the other one is apparently enough to scale

As mentioned before, there was no probable chance of Thor defeating 1/2 PF Cyclops, as stated by two of the smartest characters in the verse, so that key scales.

Godzilla (Marvel Comics) = Equal to the Midgard Serpeant who doesn't scale to Peak Thor as far as I know

I’ve already discussed why Godzilla scales, and while the Midgard Serpent doesn’t have a page, it absolutely scales to peak Thor. In Thor Vol. 1 #278, Thor was only able to weaken the Serpent, not kill it, while striking it multiple times, and one of those blows was stated to be possibly be greater than any blow Thor has struck before.

Ultron (Marvel Comics) Okay, so his first key shouldn't scale as his feats against Thor are on Earth (2-C Thor on earth is not reasonable at all)

Could argue against this, considering that Ultron has beat the tar out of Thor on multiple occasions.

Executioner (Marvel Comics) = Unsure, but doesn't seem to be pushing Thor or BRB to their limits

Executioner should scale, he’s pretty blatantly overpowering BRB.

 

[Eseseso]

Juggernaut also matched WW Hulk IIRC.

He should likely be 2-C.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Didn't he say that he was holding back throughout the world war hulk arc
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RrM0VEo3j3A/XCrgZojURsI/AAAAAAAAJVw/xI7yqz56kfgVEr6eWaB-wuOtKoPvAKO2wCLcBGAs/s1600/thumbnail_TIH_634_01.jpg
Incredible hulks #634

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Alright then, time for me to question a lot of these.

Both Thor and Jane were stated to be enraged while going against Apocalypse, which would be a point against them holding back.

Jane has no 2-C scaling and they were on Earth, I'm completely against Full Power Thor on Earth when it's stated that he never uses said Full Power here, unless he performs a feat of such scale during a fight on Earth

Nope, 1/2 PF Emma scales to 1/2 PF Cyclops who absolutely scales above Thor. She scales. Her 1/5 PF key not scaling is fine.

Yeah some of their keys scale and some don't

Juggernaut threw hands with Green Scar Hulk, there’s an argument to be made for him scaling.

And lost, and Hulk also has a Varies tier and wasn't at peak rage, and that’s the key issue: him stating to not be holding back doesn't mean 2-C when that rating varies with rage, not by how serious Hulk is or was. Also, consider Juggernaut's scaling besides this fight

Could argue against this, considering that Ultron has beat the tar out of Thor on multiple occasions.

Those fights listed on the profile are on Earth

Executioner should scale, he’s pretty blatantly overpowering BRB.

Who also holds back, but since it isn't stated to be like Thor, I don't mind him scaling, but I do think it should be a Likely or a Possibly, since BRB being at his peak there is a possibility but not something granted

 

[LordTracer]

Thor (Marvel Comics) - Just kept him here to remember that we agreed on removing his 5-B rating and change it to Varies, as it fits much better his casual shwings

Absolutely not, we are not changing Thor to a Varies tier without a canonical reason for him to vary.

Blade (Marvel Comics) - It's only with a gun and I doubt Cosmic Ghost Rider was at peak

Cosmic Ghost Rider doesn’t have a hold back thing, so there’s no reason to assume he’s not at his peak, especially when your only reasoning against it is “I doubt”.

The Destroyer (Marvel Comics) - I changed my mind a bit, I remember some fights between Thor and Beyonder being on Earth, so Thor was holding back and still managed to fight back, so I guess the 3-C key shouldn't receive the "2-C at peak"

Considering the discussion about Hercules and Godzilla, just being on Earth should not prevent someone from scaling to 2-C.

Beast (Marvel Comics) - I guess so ? Ego surely scales and his gun has a scaling to him, although just like Thor, Ego also is 2-C at his peak, which means the gun might be against a Casual Ego

We’re not giving every single character that scales an ‘at peak’ rating, that doesn’t make any logical sense.

Mangog (Marvel Comics) - If he matched jane Foster, he shouldn't scale to Peak Thor

I believe someone already explained why Mangog would scale.

Black Knight (Marvel Comics) - Can someone confirm for me if those feats against Thor are on Earth/Near Earth ? If yes, then breaking the Force Field is 3-C only

Being on Earth does not and should not invalidate 2-C.

Jormungand (Marvel Comics) - Already talked about it above

Oh, it does have a page. Well, I explained why it does scale to peak Thor earlier.

Magus (Marvel Comics) - I dunno much about the character, but Thanos also varies between 3-C and 2-C and didn't seemed to be going all out against him, his other scaling is to Nova, who in turn scales to Quasar, who...lacks a profile apparently ?

Thanos does not vary, as far as I’m aware, so…

Iron Man Armor Model 22 - Thor on Earth, so no

I’ve already explained my stance on the Earth scaling, but the Model 22 is directly powered by a gem that channels Mjolnir’s power, and it was able to absorb and redirect Thor’s powers back at him. It scales.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

So seven pages and you guys don't even agreed on if it's 2-C at peak or just plain 2-C ? Oof

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Cosmic Ghost Rider doesn’t have a hold back thing, so there’s no reason to assume he’s not at his peak

Cosmic Ghost Rider does say that he holds back a lot, though

 

[LordTracer]

Cosmic Ghost Rider does say that he holds back a lot, though

Okay, that’s good then.

 

[LordTracer]

So seven pages and you guys don't even agreed on if it's 2-C at peak or just plain 2-C ? Oof

Certain characters can have 2-C at peak, but it shouldn’t be applied to literally everyone.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Certain characters can have 2-C at peak, but it shouldn’t be applied to literally everyone.

So we'll need a list to who hs that and who doesn't

Well, one good example that I can think now is Ego: Thor stated that he can't defeat him, that's counting on his peak power, which should make Ego plain and simple 2-C

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Alright then, time for me to question a lot of these.

I’ve already discussed why Godzilla scales, and while the Midgard Serpent doesn’t have a page, it absolutely scales to peak Thor. In Thor Vol. 1 #278, Thor was only able to weaken the Serpent, not kill it, while striking it multiple times, and one of those blows was stated to be possibly be greater than any blow Thor has struck before.

I was reading Thor Vol. 1 #278 and it was stated this:

Mjolnir had no the power to destroy the Midgar Serpent and perhaps never before in a thousand eternities has such a blow been struck.

 

[LordTracer]

Jane has no 2-C scaling and they were on Earth, I'm completely against Full Power Thor on Earth when it's stated that he never uses said Full Power here, unless he performs a feat of such scale during a fight on Earth

Jane not being 2-C is… weird, but whatever. I’ve already explained why I disagree with the notion that Thor cannot be 2-C on Earth, especially when he’s getting the absolute shit kicked out of him and it’d be stupid and actively detrimental to hold back in such a scenario.

Those fights listed on the profile are on Earth

See reasons above.

Who also holds back, but since it isn't stated to be like Thor, I don't mind him scaling, but I do think it should be a Likely or a Possibly, since BRB being at his peak there is a possibility but not something granted

If BRB is getting his cheeks clapped and not putting up a good fight, I think a full rating is completely warranted.

 

[LordTracer]

So we'll need a list to who hs that and who doesn't

Well, one good example that I can think now is Ego: Thor stated that he can't defeat him, that's counting on his peak power, which should make Ego plain and simple 2-C

Thanos is another example of someone who doesn’t need it, because he has consistently annihilated Silver Surfer and Thor and occasionally fought Skyfathers but that’s besides the point.

 

[Deleted member 11410]

I think that the 2-C Godzilla looks fine too -w-'

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that not officially acknowledging Marvel's very extreme degrees of inconsistency for these characters is extremely misleading for our visitors, and also impractical, as pretending that Thor is usually portrayed as tier 3-C will lead to lots of characters, such as Wonder Man, Thing, and Colossus, also scaling to this tier. He genuinely usually varies between 5-B and 2-C depending on the writer and the opponents they have in mind.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I still think that not officially acknowledging Marvel's very extreme degrees of inconsistency for these characters is extremely misleading for our visitors, and also impractical, as pretending that Thor is usually portrayed as tier 3-C will lead to lots of characters, such as Wonder Man, Thing, and Colossus, also scaling to this tier. He genuinely usually varies between 5-B and 2-C depending on the writer and the opponents they have in mind.

I thought his Explanations section already somewhat addresses this, but I guess maybe more stuff can be added onto it?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should probably briefly mention that the real world reason is just that the different writers have very different ideas regarding how powerful Thor is, and I also have second thoughts about getting rid of his "5-B when holding back immensely in Earthly settings" tier, given that it might create a scaling mess.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I disagree with the Midgard Serpent thing not being strength scaling.

Most users including LordTracer agree with it, so it should be fine scaling Godzilla from the Midgard Serpent.

I was reading Thor Vol. 1 #278 and it was stated this:

Mjolnir had no the power to destroy the Midgar Serpent and perhaps never before in a thousand eternities has such a blow been struck.

The Midgard Serpent scales from Peak Thor and the proof is the scan I posted above.

 

[LordTracer]

Most users here including LordTracer agree with it, so it should be fine scaling Godzilla from the Midgard Serpent.

Oh, I’m neutral on Godzilla scaling to the Serpent, I just think they both scale to peak Hercules and Thor, respectively.

 

[Hasty12345]

I’m still of the opinion characters should only scale to 2-C if they themselves have 2-C feats, or have an incredibly strong reason to scale them to that rating. This principle I believe should also extend to 3-C tiered characters, it characters don’t have 3-C feats, they need a really good reason to scale them to 3-C.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Oh, I’m neutral on Godzilla scaling to the Serpent, I just think they both scale to peak Hercules and Thor, respectively.

Oops, my bad...I misunderstood your comments.

I'm neutral on Godzilla scaling to the Serpent too. But certanly Godzilla scaling from Hercules is something sure.

 

[Excellence616]

bump