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Marvel Comics: Thor vs. World Engine

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IdiosyncraticLawyer

IdiosyncraticLawyer

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The purpose of this thread is to add an extra feat to Thor's profile, which includes a rating of High Outerverse level for his base form when he taps into his inner life-essence, and to reinstate his Immeasurable Lifting Strength.

In Thor #494, Thor calls upon his power and overexerts himself to push the World Engine's control wheel, which had embedded itself into Yggdrasil, to reverse the cycle of Ragnarok, nearly dying in the process. Yggdrasil is a High 1-A-sized structure, so overpowering it by pushing it is High 1-A AP and Immeasurable LS. As Thor performs this feat by calling on his inner power, it qualifies as additional justification for his life essence's High 1-A rating.

This feat was initially accepted in https://vsbattles.com/threads/thor-lifting-strength-upgrade.137412/, though at the time, it was pitched as 2-C AP due to the wiki not yet considering Yggdrasil High 1-A, meaning only Thor scaling to nine spacetimes was considered. Eficiente later tried to remove it in https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-revisions-2022-12-07.145954/, which eventually got abandoned. The feat remained on Thor's profile until Ultima purged it while assigning the Heralds' preliminary tiers, initially deeming it an outlier before he added Thor's life essence to his profile.
I find Eficiente's attempt at debunking this feat quite weak, as I said on the Marvel discussion thread:
  • He spinned a wheel that was connected to the tree's "natural clock" (time in its worlds), the machine could manipulate the time on the tree's worlds by spinning and Thor spinned it backwards. He did an action that automatically causes hax through the machine's own manipulation of the tree, which is unquantifiable, not on the same level as the manipulated target. Ex. If someone punctures machines on you with a wheel that make you raise an arm when spinned, what tier is it to spin it in reverse and make you lower your arm? The answer is whatever. Replace the target of the machine with any character and the forced action with anything they can do and the answer is still whatever, anything. I cannot say it more clear than that. It's great that it took Thor an insane effert to do this and that he went up against "the combined intent of both tree and engine".
    • We say that Thor "significantly affected their timelines", which is that thing the Tiering System says, but the scans only show that he affected the natural time in them to turn back time. This is "even less 2-C" as the space between universes isn't being affected by his action, his action affects the time on those universes.
  • It was brought up how Those who Sit in the Shadows cause Ragnarok as a reason as to why it couldn't just be easily stopped, which is quite the excuse. They weren't established until way later. Even then, there is no reason as to why they would try to avoid Thor spinning the wheel backwards just like they did nothing when the wheel spinned like normal and "caused" Ragnarok, regardless of them being the ones who cause it.
  • Also, while the crazy oldman is a genius in genetics that manipulated funtions of the tree, considering how his base was an underground internment for superhumans in 1940 during WWII, I would think his machines holding and puncturing the Yggdrasil is due to the tree being not portrayed as having 2-C durability rather than the machines being that strong.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Though I used to find this convincing, I don't agree with it anymore. Firstly, Yggdrasil is being treated as High 1-A now, not 2-C, so the first sub-bullet and third bullet are irrelevant now. Second, I don't know what THSAIS have to do with this, and the argument doesn't need them to be involved anyway, so that's also irrelevant.

As for the main argument:
  1. This issue opens with Thor tracing Thurisaz, the rune representing his name, on his gauntlets while musing over releasing the past, reclaiming power, and declaring his identity, pointing to him using "the power of Thor" here.
  2. The comic explicitly states that Thor "would be fighting against the combined intent of both tree and engine", which is an odd description to make if you want to suppose that turning this wheel only indirectly causes hax, as Thor explicitly has to directly contend with Yggdrasil's might to turn it.
  3. To push the wheel, Thor exerts himself so much that his palms burn with pain and he nearly dies from the strain before managing to finish pushing, which, again, makes far more sense if we assume he's pushing himself to his limits than if we assume he's just pushing a lever to cause some random hax.
I know Eficiente says "It's great that it took Thor an insane effert to do this and that he went up against 'the combined intent of both tree and engine'", but that just comes off as mockingly dismissing the feat when the evidence in favor of it is unambiguous. The analogy doesn't work explicitly because the feat is described as Thor fighting "the combined intent of both tree and engine", so I'm making these points regardless.
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Agree: Marvel_Champion_07, Eseseso, Abu2411, Excel616, Qawsedf234, Maverick_Zero_X, Eficiente, Lightning_XXI
 
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Well, it's not to come off as mockingly dismissive, I know that going against "the combined intent of both tree and engine" sounds like it could be going against the full power of the tree, but "intent" can easily go as in, how things are meant to be naturally, in this case how time moves on its own. If you accept that premise, then you accept the fact that the feat is unquantifiable and that the amount of power it would take Thor to do this can be anything, therefore it doesn't matter the monumental effort he put into it.

So again, the wheel was connected to the tree's "natural clock"/the time in the world, we would be saying that the tree can put up a Resistance to that being manipulated on the same Tier as itself, all because the manipulation of time Thor wanted to create wasn't within the tree/reality's "intent". That doesn't mean that reality is fighting you with all its power, it just means that you're doing something abnormal to reality. Even if it was really putting up a Resistance to X aspect of one being manipulated, it's unquantifiable how much power the tree can put to defend its time being rotated, it would not be something inhereditary at the Tier of the tree itself, so again, it's a super notable feat that Thor "fought" the tree here, but what levels of power that mean can be anything.
 
Eficiente said:
Well, it's not to come off as mockingly dismissive, I know that going against "the combined intent of both tree and engine" sounds like it could be going against the full power of the tree, but "intent" can easily go as in, how things are meant to be naturally, in this case how time moves on its own. If you accept that premise, then you accept the fact that the feat is unquantifiable and that the amount of power it would take Thor to do this can be anything, therefore it doesn't matter the monumental effort he put into it.

So again, the wheel was connected to the tree's "natural clock"/the time in the world, we would be saying that the tree can put up a Resistance to that being manipulated on the same Tier as itself, all because the manipulation of time Thor wanted to create wasn't within the tree/reality's "intent". That doesn't mean that reality is fighting you with all its power, it just means that you're doing something abnormal to reality. Even if it was really putting up a Resistance to X aspect of one being manipulated, it's unquantifiable how much power the tree can put to defend its time being rotated, it would not be something inhereditary at the Tier of the tree itself, so again, it's a super notable feat that Thor "fought" the tree here, but what levels of power that mean can be anything.
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These arguments would be reasonable if this was the only time Thor displayed a feat of such a level by tapping into his inner life-essence, but as Ultima has proven, Thor's inner life-essence is consistently written as something granting him High 1-A levels of power, meaning we do have other examples to quantify it against. Even though the feat is unquantifiable if we look at it in isolation, the fact that Thor's inner power consistently allows him such a power level and he consistently must tap into it when performing Omniversal feats means that we can interpret fighting "the combined intent of both tree and engine" using his inner life-essence as fighting the full power of the tree. Thor's latent potential only comes out when he truly needs it, and if he was fighting anything less than Yggdrasil's full High 1-A power, his inner life-essence would have allowed him enough power to thwart the wheel with a flick of his pinky, which clearly didn't happen.
 
Yeah, I think we can fit this feat on his life essence section, the text also seems to consider it to be something Thor can't do freely
 
This might not be the place to mention it (I missed the previous Thor CRT), but why is "life essence" and "God Blast" listed separately on his profile if life essence is the power source for the God Blast? Idk, it just feel like " up to High 1-A through God Blast and inner life-essence" would look cleaner than "High 1-B to Low 1-A with the God Blast, up to High 1-A through his inner life-essence." Also the wording of "peak" seems a bit weird for High 3-A. I think either get rid of the 3-C rating, or change the wording because High 3-A pretty clearly isn't his peak when he can go all the way up to High 1-A.
 
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ObberGobb said:
This might not be the place to mention it (I missed the previous Thor CRT), but why is "life essence" and "God Blast" listed separately on his profile if life essence is the power source for the God Blast? Idk, it just feel like " up to High 1-A through God Blast and inner life-essence" would look cleaner than "High 1-B to Low 1-A with the God Blast, up to High 1-A through his inner life-essence." Also the wording of "peak" seems a bit weird for High 3-A.
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The God Blast typically doesn't draw on all of Thor's life essence, as its feats are all High 1-B to Low 1-A. It's a distinct enough application of Thor's power to have a separate entry.
 
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