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Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

Ok since @Eseseso's 1-A thread seems to basically be wrapped up, I wanted to get back to this. I think the main thing is to decide about Yggdrasil's tier. Is it now 1-A due to scaling across Earth-616? If so, do you all agree with all the characters I listed as scaling to it?
 
I also made this sandbox listing every character who would be upgraded based on this (the list is of every character that I think scales from Odin, or from a character who scales from Odin). I also added potential justification changes for the profiles of Thor and Odin based on my proposal in the CRT. I do have two feats I'm wondering about though:

Eric Masterson and Dargo Ktor unleashing mystical energy across all planes of reality, and powering a machine that can collapse infinite timelines into one -- What should be done with this? In the general discussion thread, the "infinite timelines" was deemed to likely just be a 2-A feat rather than 1-A. What about the infinite planes of reality? And if its 2-A, what should be done with it?

Odin and others are stated in a guidebook to be able to destroy and recreate the multiverse -- Should this statement be dropped, or can it be used to help justify 1-A?

Enchantress almost killed Yggdrasil with her magic -- People earlier seemed to be leaning towards disagreeing about scaling Enchantress to Yggdrasil, but I'd like to just make that official if everyone still disagrees

I was considering adding "with Odinsword" to Thor's 1-A tiering for his first key. He has two feats with it: he split Yggdrasil, and he defeated Bor. Do you think its worth noting?
 
ObberGobb said:
Eric Masterson and Dargo Ktor unleashing mystical energy across all planes of reality, and powering a machine that can collapse infinite timelines into one -- What should be done with this? In the general discussion thread, the "infinite timelines" was deemed to likely just be a 2-A feat rather than 1-A. What about the infinite planes of reality? And if its 2-A, what should be done with it?
Click to expand...
I suppose we'd had to set this feat aside until a bunch of other 2-A feats are found, since in isolation it comes off as outlier-ish.
 
ObberGobb said:
Ok since @Eseseso's 1-A thread seems to basically be wrapped up, I wanted to get back to this. I think the main thing is to decide about Yggdrasil's tier. Is it now 1-A due to scaling across Earth-616? If so, do you all agree with all the characters I listed as scaling to it?
Click to expand...
If it scales to the entirety of Earth-616 (aka Universal Eternity), then yes it'd scale to 1-A since the Astral Plane is the surface of Earth-616 and is contained inside it.
 
So, is everyone in agreement on it scaling to 1-A from Earth-616 reality? Personally I still think it scales to the Multiverse as a whole, but I'm happy to drop that since from what people have said, that doesn't work.
 
ObberGobb said:
So, is everyone in agreement on it scaling to 1-A from Earth-616 reality? Personally I still think it scales to the Multiverse as a whole, but I'm happy to drop that since from what people have said, that doesn't work.
Click to expand...
I mean, weren't you arguing that it scaled to all the Eternities?
 
One of the main bases of the new 1-A Tiering is that characters on a lower-level of existence interacting with the 1-A structures (As long as it ins't with the gelp of a 1-A being) would disqualify the structure as being 1-A in the first place

How this applies to Marvel and people like Thor?
 
Eseseso said:
I mean, weren't you arguing that it scaled to all the Eternities?
Click to expand...
I argued that it scaled to all realities, but I also don't think it should scale to infinite Uni Eternities. I don't think it should scale above Uni Eternity at all. Like Thor and Odin can affect it, but are solidly below Uni Eternity. I don't think it's consistent for Yggdrasil to scale above Abstract Tier considering how frequently Thor has done stuff with it. We currently have Odin scaling to the "Inner Contents" of Universal Eternity, so I figured we could just say it scales to an infinite number of "Inner Contents," but I was told that that doesn't work.
 
ObberGobb said:
I argued that it scaled to all realities, but I also don't think it should scale to infinite Uni Eternities. I don't think it should scale above Uni Eternity at all. Like Thor and Odin can affect it, but are solidly below Uni Eternity. I don't think it's consistent for Yggdrasil to scale above Abstract Tier considering how frequently Thor has done stuff with it. We currently have Odin scaling to the "Inner Contents" of Universal Eternity, so I figured we could just say it scales to an infinite number of "Inner Contents," but I was told that that doesn't work.
Click to expand...
How about "High 1-B, possibly 1-A"?
 
What does 616 scale to without looking into Eternity, after your CRT was just passed? We know that Yggdrasil scales at least to every realm, so if there is a 1-A realm, shouldn't it scale to 1-A even if it doesn't scale to Uni Eternity M-Bodies?
 
I think it should scale to all realities though, even though some people have disagreed, so I'd like to hear thoughts from others on that front
 
ObberGobb said:
What does 616 scale to without looking into Eternity, after your CRT was just passed? We know that Yggdrasil scales at least to every realm, so if there is a 1-A realm, shouldn't it scale to 1-A even if it doesn't scale to Uni Eternity M-Bodies?
Click to expand...
The High 1-B stuff is unaffected, but the Astral Plane is now 1-A, and as such so is Earth-616/Eternity.
 
Eseseso said:
The High 1-B stuff is unaffected, but the Astral Plane is now 1-A, and as such so is Earth-616/Eternity.
Click to expand...
Since we know that Yggdrasil exists across all planes of reality, and is "everything," can we confidently assume it encompasses the Astral Plane?
 
So I guess its High 1-B if it just scales to Earth-616 then? What about scaling to all realities in the Multiverse? I know @ProfectusInfinity disagrees with this idea, but I feel like its fairly consistent that characters on this tier can do that.
 
 
Yeah that's... that's a lot of Evidence. Normally I'd be on the fence of Skyfather tiers upscaling to a variant of Eternity / the whole thing, but this is A LOT to ignore outright. Not to mention there are other feats of Skyfather - Celestial Level beings clearly being a threat to all of reality / Multiverse / Omniverse.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Yeah that's... that's a lot of Evidence. Normally I'd be on the fence of Skyfather tiers upscaling to a variant of Eternity / the whole thing, but this is A LOT to ignore outright. Not to mention there are other feats of Skyfather - Celestial Level beings clearly being a threat to all of reality / Multiverse / Omniverse.
Click to expand...
Could you link some of those feats if you have them?
 
 
ObberGobb said:
Could you link some of those feats if you have them?
Click to expand...

I don't have the links right now so I'll just list them:
  • Someone with Franklin's powers (who wasn't Celestial Level yet) in Fantastic Four Volume 1 was stated to be a threat to every level of existence.
  • A Franklin during Excalibur Volume 1 is capable of easily handling a fusion of Phoenix Rachel and Nightmare. Phoenix Rachel has a good amount of at a minimum 1-A Showings, being stated to be a threat to all reality, fighting Necrom who defeated a Merlyn who created Otherworld [which as we know is at least 1-A] , etc. Again, this is a Franklin whose supposedly only Celestial Level.
  • Celestials are stated during Hickman's Run as capable of affecting/creating the entire Multiverse. While obviously this could be chalked up to them doing it as a group, at the time of this scan evidence of them having avatars within the Multiverse didn't exist, so this would only apply to their Avatar forms within the Universe.
  • (Fantastic Four Volume 3) Roma regarded Franklin as capable of reshaping the very Cosmos and can destroy Everything. Context means Cosmos and Everything mean the same thing. Roma is a being who oversees the entire Omniverse up to Complete Eternity so it's 1-A as a lowball.
  • (Fantastic Four Volume 3) Uatu also states the Fate of All may hang in the balance when it comes to Franklin's powers. Uatu is aware of the Cosmology up to at least 1-A scale considering his whole thing is that he watches Alternate Earths. Once again, they explicitly treated him as just Celestial level within that comic.
  • (Hickman's Run of Fantastic Four) A Franklin who is supposedly only Celestial Level is stated by Narration to be the most powerful mutant period during Hickman's run, making him superior to all other Mutants that appeared before then, including Nate Grey, who can tear the Astral Plane asunder, and House of M Scarlet Witch, whose Chaos Wave was stated by Roma to be capable of destroying All of Creation
  • (Hickman's Run of Fantastic Four) Franklin could halt and eventually stop the Revision Wave, a Wave going through all of reality and wiping out all realities. Again, he's treated as just Celestial Level
  • History of the Marvel Universe has a Galactus aware of all of the Marvel Universe history state that Franklin is the most powerful mutant to ever be born, giving him one heck of a Goat quote. He's still supposedly just Celestial Level
  • Tiamut in Fantastic Four Vol 3 directly states that all that is he had a hand in shaping into what it now is. It was also directly said that all of reality was in grave danger if Tiamut (a weakened one) was to succeed.
-
-
 
ObberGobb said:
Yggdrasil is connected to every timeline across the Multiverse

When the Enchantress poisoned Yggdrasil, Thor said it threatened all realities

Mephisto and Hela fighting would have caused Omniversal Armageddon
Click to expand...
Sure, I guess this is supporting evidence for 1-A.
ObberGobb said:
Guidebook says Odin and others can destroy and recreate the Multiverse

Odin's fight with Seth tore at the fabric of the Multiverse
Click to expand...
I mentioned this a few times, but the base Multiverse is just 2-A. It's been acknowledged a few times in this thread that the Odin/Seth feat just scales to planes within the Universe (dubbed "internal contents" by Ultima, though not an official term).
ObberGobb said:
Konshu's profile shows that a fraction of their power can defeat a being who threatened to destroy the whole multiverse
Click to expand...
Can't comment on this, not knowledgeable on the character.
ObberGobb said:
Phoenix Force has the power to compress the Multiverse into a singularity, and Odin and Thor are stated to be some of the beings able to kill it
Click to expand...
1. The same scan states that Base Thanos is one of the beings who can kill the Phoenix.

2. The Phoenix Force varies in power, and now that I think about it... isn't that scan just talking about Phoenix Force Echo? Whose best feat was helping holding back the First Firmament's entire Omniversal Flood (the same High 1-A feat Thor currently scales to)?

3. "Phoenix Force has the power to compress the Multiverse into a singularity" -I'm 90% sure these Phoenix Force avatars (Necrom and Feron) should be High 1-A seeing as their "multiversal" feats in context span Otherworld, which is an Omniversal Nexus that reaches High 1-A parts of the cosmology (for reference, the Chaos Wave, a High 1-A feat Ultima plans to scale Chthon to in the future, also threatened Otherworld).
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
I mentioned this a few times, but the base Multiverse is just 2-A. It's been acknowledged a few times in this thread that the Odin/Seth feat just scales to planes within the Universe (dubbed "internal contents" by Ultima, though not an official term).
Click to expand...
Do you think they are good supporting feats for the above three?
ProfectusInfinity said:
1. The same scan states that Base Thanos is one of the beings who can kill the Phoenix.
Click to expand...
I just figured that to mean with prep or something. But if you think that Phoenix shouldn't be used for 1-A in the fist place then that is fine.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Sure, I guess this is supporting evidence for 1-A.

I mentioned this a few times, but the base Multiverse is just 2-A. It's been acknowledged a few times in this thread that the Odin/Seth feat just scales to planes within the Universe (dubbed "internal contents" by Ultima, though not an official term).

Can't comment on this, not knowledgeable on the character.

1. The same scan states that Base Thanos is one of the beings who can kill the Phoenix.

2. The Phoenix Force varies in power, and now that I think about it... isn't that scan just talking about Phoenix Force Echo? Whose best feat was helping holding back the First Firmament's entire Omniversal Flood (the same High 1-A feat Thor currently scales to)?

3. "Phoenix Force has the power to compress the Multiverse into a singularity" -I'm 90% sure these Phoenix Force avatars (Necrom and Feron) should be High 1-A seeing as their "multiversal" feats in context span Otherworld, which is an Omniversal Nexus that reaches High 1-A parts of the cosmology (for reference, the Chaos Wave, a High 1-A feat Ultima plans to scale Chthon to in the future, also threatened Otherworld).
Click to expand...
Yeah Otherworld is blatantly High 1-A. Merlyn created it, Feron scales to it because he defeated an amped Merlyn, and Rachel scales to fighting that Feron.
 
Eseseso said:
Yeah, that stuff makes me feel like "High 1-B, possibly 1-A" might be a good solution.
Click to expand...
I think High 1-B, likely 1-A would be a fine compromise, but if possible I'd like to avoid that. Partially because I really do think 1-A is solid enough to warrant a flat rating, but also because having too many tiers in one key is really ugly.

Like if my changes go through, that would leave Thor's first key as being "3-C to High 3-A normally, up to at least High 1-B, likely 1-A at peak and with God Blast." I don't like the look of that at all. I know that's a petty reason so I won't argue much about it, but still.

But yeah I do think that 1-A is consistent even without aesthetic issues
 
I don't think this feat would be irrelevent or not but after strange absorbing ygddrasil magic he become more powerful than ever been Edit: that includes everything he did in past
main-qimg-78ab86f4c42fc70ba720452229b29849-lq
 
So what barriers are there for 1-A scaling for Skyfather-tiers? Does anyone disagree? Do I need more input?
 
Eseseso said:
I mean...they are shown as inferior to the Celestials, who are IIRC inferior to the Abstracts
Click to expand...
Celestials and Abstracts would just upscale from them. I think that there are enough feats and statements of affecting the Multiverse from characters solidly below Eternity that there has to be some way to make that scaling work.

What part do you disagree with? Yggdrasil and Skyfathers being Multiverse wide in scale, or the 1-A tiering for them in general? What do you think they should scale to?
 
ObberGobb said:

Part One: Yggdrasil and Those Who Scale​

Right now, Yggdrasil is scaled to High 1-A based on this panel, showing it encompassing the Living Tribunal. I have a big problem with this, as I do not think this scaling is at all narratively implied. It is a huge outlier that is never brought up or implied again. It should be entirely dropped. For new Yggdrasil scaling:

Yggdrasil is "everything" and has "roots and branches in all that is." It is also stated to exist across all planes of reality. This means that it be at least High 1-B due to encompassing all of Earth-616's realms. Furthermore, it has been stated to encompass of the Multiverse's timelines. This is supported by the fact that when the Enchantress wounded Yggdrasil with her magic, it threatened to destroy all realities. These means that beyond just scaling to the size of Earth-616, this would scale to all realities in the multiverse. This makes it a Low 1-A structure.

Proposal #1: Scale Yggdrasil to Low 1-A due to being connected to all realities across the multiverse Updated: Yggdrasil scales to all of the 616 Reality

There are many feats of scaling to Yggdrasil:

  1. Thor pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself
  2. Thor shattered the root of Yggdrasil
  3. Thor defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil
  4. Baby Thor shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried
  5. Enchantress' magic almost killed Yggdrasil had Thor not intervened
  6. Storm created a storm around Yggdrasil that threatened to tear it asunder
  7. With the Odinsword, Thor split the World Tree in twain
  8. Surtur's flame burned all of Yggdrasil, and Odin was powerful enough to negate them
Supporting feats:

  1. Hela and Mephisto fighting would cause omniversal armageddon beyond Ragnarok
  2. Odin and others are stated in Marvel: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know to be able to destroy and recreate the Multiverse
  3. Eric Masterson and Dargo Ktor clashing unleashed mystical energy across all planes of existence, and fully powered a machine that would collapse infinite timelines into one (Timelines in Marvel are entire realities, and thus this should theoretically scale to an infinite number of realities)
  4. Galactus, Scrier, and Other fighting would have destroyed all universes (We know that in this context, "universe" does indeed mean "reality," as Oblivion compares it to what the Chaos King intended on doing. However, this does not scale the feat to Chaos King's level, as Oblivion was merely saying that this would succeed at destroying all universes where Chaos King failed. He is not saying that this would mean High 1-A levels of destruction, as the only stated effects are all universes, with the power to do that not requiring Chaos King levels of power. However, I have been told that if the DeMatteis cosmology split happens then this feat likely won't be useable)
  5. Odin's fight against Seth tore at the fabric of the Multiverse (This is accepted as just High 1-B, but I think should be higher as it shows levels of power affecting the multiverse and not just Odin's reality)
These feats further indicate that characters of this tier of power can affect the all realities in the multiverse, not just 616. (Dropped scaling to infinite realities)

Proposal #2: The peaks of Thor, Loki, Enchantress, and Storm should be whatever tier Earth-616 becomes (Likely 1-A after @Eseseso's thread). By scaling above these characters, and scaling to his own feat, Odin (and by extension all Skyfather and Hell Lord tier characters) should scale to this too.

Part Two: Fixing Thor and Other Heralds Too​

Thor's profile has some big issues. There are way too many tiers listed on his profile and most of them don't need to be there.

"High 3-A at peak" — No he isn't. Why does it say that? The key lists several more tiers beyond High 3-A so clearly its not his peak. High 3-A should just be treated as his normal level of power: not holding back, and not pushing himself to his limits.

"higher with Thermo-Blast" — I think this is a bit unnecessary. Yes it is more powerful, but it is just more words cluttering the key without conveying necessary information. Thor is also stronger with Warrior's Madness, two Mjolnirs, and Megingjörð but we don't list any of those because it is redundant. This should be dropped, and in his High 3-A justification just add an explanation that this is stronger than his normal attacks.

"High 1-B to Low 1-A with the God Blast" — If Proposal #2 is accepted, then this can simply be cut to 1-A.

"High 1-A via his inner life-essence" — I already covered High 1-A being done away with, but my other issue is the wording. "Inner life-essence" isn't really treated as a thing in-story. At least, not as special of a thing as this tiering suggests. Many of the examples shown don't really have anything to do with an inner life essence, and the others are just him going beyond his limits, which is pretty common for superhero stories. This wording should be dropped entirely.

Backscaling from Herald Thor's High 1-A God Blast — Herald of None is pretty clearly a huge powerup, so it doesn't make sense at all for any feat done in a powerup form to backscale to weaker forms. I don't understand why this is on the profile, I don't think I've ever seen any other powerup treated this way. Unless we have explicit confirmation otherwise, powerups like this should be assumed to empower every stat of the character in question.

Proposal #3: Thor's first key should be simplified to "High 3-A normally, up to 1-A" at peak and with God Blast. It is much easier to read, conveys the information more efficiently, and doesn't result in insane scaling like baby Thor being stronger than the Living Tribunal. High 1-A should be dropped from Odinforce key, and that key should be changed from High 1-B to 1-A.

Thor's peak should scale to both his aforementioned Yggdrasil feats, and to some feats that scale him to Skyfathers and Hell Lords:

  1. Thor vs. Hela, Thor outright physically overpowers Hela, but this is implied to be his peak because Hela says she has not seem him this strong before.
  2. Thor vs. Hela 2, Hela says Thor is too fierce a fighter for her, so she needs to use hax to defeat him
  3. Thor vs. Mephisto, Thor defeats Mephisto by dunking him in lava and then hardening it
  4. Thor vs. Mephisto 2, Thor fights Mephisto who says that neither of them can defeat the other
  5. Thor hurt The Glory, a being with the power of an entire Pantheon
  6. Thor fought Zeus, and while he did lose, Zeus said that he resisted him stronger than any of the Titans or Olympians
  7. Thor briefly fought the manifestation of the Odinforce, which had been drained from Odin (Much less impressive than the others, but I figured still worth noting)
  8. Odin seems to have felt the need to wear the Destroyer Armor and wield the Twilight Sword when confronting Thor's rampage (Thor got stomped, but I feel its noteworthy that Odin decided to amp himself)
  9. Thor briefly fought Surtur, being able to cause him pain and survive Surtur's attack. with Surtur complimenting his strength and implying that he made him feel more pain than he has felt since he first fought Odin

Summary:​

Proposal #1: Scale Yggdrasil to either High 1-B, Low 1-A, or 1-A due to being connected to all realities across the multiverse

Proposal #2: The peaks of Thor, Loki, Enchantress, and Storm should scale to that tier. By scaling above these characters, and scaling to his own feat, Odin (and by extension all Skyfather and Hell Lord tier characters) should scale to that tier too. Thor's peak is based both on his own Yggdrasil feats, and on scaling to Skyfathers and Hell Lords.

Proposal #3: Thor's first key should be simplified to "High 3-A normally, up to 1-A at peak and with God Blast." It is much easier to read, conveys the information more efficiently, and doesn't result in insanely scaling like baby Thor being stronger than the Living Tribunal.

Votes:​

Agree: @ByAsura, @MarvelFanatic119 (Unsure on Enchantress), @Eseseso (Unsure on Enchantress), @Excellence616 (Disagree on Enchantress), @The_2nd_Existential_Seed (5)
Disagree:
Neutral:
Click to expand...
Very much agree
 
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