Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Eh, I disagree. Calling out powerscaling scenarios like Thor vs Hulk in strength or Thor vs Quicksilver in a race seems like a straight reference to the kinds of questions authors like Al Ewing or Stan Lee are constantly asked, which Stan Lee infamously responded to with "the person who'd win in a fight is the person that the writer wants to win."

It is a reference to that (An explicit one imo), but how the "Varies rating" concept is applied on the quote is what made me think on the previously mentioned interpretation:

"But strength is relative to the need for it. If I have to... I can stand on Jupiter. I can stand on anything if the need is great and the cause is just -- as can you. As can we all. We are not measured by strength, nor by raw power. The measure of us is what we do... when the need for action lies with us... and the hammer is in our hand."

There ins't too much sense on Thor talking only about the Heralds if he says that "we all" can make our strength relative to the need for it.

---

Also:

"But strength is relative to the need for it. If I have to... I can stand on Jupiter. I can stand on anything if the need is great and the cause is just"

"We are not measured by strength, nor by raw power. The measure of us is what we do..."

The above parts of the quote pretty much not only implies, but, in my opinion, explicitly shows the idea of a more "heroic" approach of the "vary in power" concept than talks about the existence of a real Varies rating

 

[Luckyfun]

What tier would Marvel cap at if this goes through?

Edit: is everyone scales to yggdrasil?

 

[Eseseso]

What tier would Marvel cap at if this goes through?

Edit: is everyone scales to yggdrasil?

This doesn't change the High 1-A cosmology.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

I was told to wait for the JM DeMatteis cosmology thread to finish, since both deal with Tier 1 stuff

 

[AndrewBennet]

Bump

 

[ObberGobb]

The JM DeMatteis thread is taking longer than I thought and I don't want this thread to die. To summarize the main points so far:

• Disagreement, mostly leaning negative, on whether Enchantress should scale to Yggdrasil
• Issues of 5-B/3-C/High 3-A to be shelved for a later, dedicated, thread. Personally for now I would prefer dropping everything below High 3-A on Thor's profile, with what to do afterwards just being revisited later.
• Pretty widespread agreement with the main points, but nothing definitive on High 1-B vs. Low 1-A
• Issue of Immortal Thor potentially implying Yggdrasil to scale to House of Ideas, with the idea being that discussion should be held off until then. I strongly disagree with that idea, as we have no reason to believe it was more than an offhand line or that it will be elaborated on to any meaningful extent. I'm also inclined to treat that as an outlier regardless of elaboration, simply due to the vast number of feats showing characters like Thor, Storm, and Odin being able to scale to it.
• Main issue with Low 1-A seems to be that it would theoretically scale these characters above Universal Abstracts. So the main topic I'd like to address is if scaling to infinite realities necessarily scaling above infinite Universal Abstracts.

We don't have to decide on anything yet, I just didn't want the thread to die so I'm summarizing the previous discussion points for whenever this is returned to (hopefully sooner rather than later)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The JM DeMatteis thread is taking longer than I thought and I don't want this thread to die. To summarize the main points so far:

As far as I understand the thread that is currently ongoing is just to split the cosmology there is still gonna be another thread to decide how this affect the rest of the marvel cosmology. If you have to wait for that it's gonna take a long long time.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Heralds and skyfather lvl beings beings High 1A makes no sense to me.

 

[Excellence616]

Heralds and skyfather lvl beings beings High 1A makes no sense to me.

Heralds things ain't for this thread

 

[ObberGobb]

The main issue left to be resolved is the Low 1-A scaling. Basically: can a character scale to destroying infinite realities, without scaling above the Eternities of those realities? Is that something that can in any way work in the Marvel Cosmology?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

The main issue left to be resolved is the Low 1-A scaling. Basically: can a character scale to destroying infinite realities, without scaling above the Eternities of those realities? Is that something that can in any way work in the Marvel Cosmology?

Don't really think that's possible. Every alternate earth is Eternity, Eternity is every alternate earth. They're one and the same.

 

[ObberGobb]

Don't really think that's possible. Every alternate earth is Eternity, Eternity is every alternate earth. They're one and the same.

What tier would it be for just destroying the physical matter of all realities?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

What tier would it be for just destroying the physical matter of all realities?

It wouldn't be possible to destroy a Multiverse and only affect the physical matter of the Universes, hence why all multiversal feats are Tier 2 regardless of temporal dimensions/fabric of space-time being name-dropped.

 

[ObberGobb]

It wouldn't be possible to destroy a Multiverse and only affect the physical matter of the Universes, hence why all multiversal feats are Tier 2 regardless of temporal dimensions/fabric of space-time being name-dropped.

So, how could this be reconciled? Should Yggdrasil just be scaled to one reality? Odin is already High 1-B due to scaling to the "inner contents of Eternity itself." Could Yggdrasil scale to an infinite number of those "inner contents?" @ByAsura also mentioned that its fairly consistent that characters like Dormammu and others can harm or blister the fabric of Universal Eternity. So maybe it would still be Low 1-A?

Like since its fairly consistent that Yggdrasil spans all realities, and that Eternity is always shown to be far above the characters that can affect it, there has to be some way for it to be reconciled in-universe. Like Surtur could burn all of reality in the "Everything Burns" arc, but I don't think the intent was for him to be killing infinite Eternities.

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

So, how could this be reconciled? Should Yggdrasil just be scaled to one reality? Odin is already High 1-B due to scaling to the "inner contents of Eternity itself." Could Yggdrasil scale to an infinite number of those "inner contents?" @ByAsura also mentioned that its fairly consistent that characters like Dormammu and others can harm or blister the fabric of Universal Eternity. So maybe it would still be Low 1-A?

Dormammu specifically, he's consistently meant to be closer to Abstracts than Skyfathers. One of his first feats (if not his very first feat) was holding his own against Universal Eternity to the point where their clash would've disintegrated both of themselves. He has that one feat of warping Lord Chaos and Master Order over a game of chess with Odin, but that's pretty outliery since Dormammu, at his absolute weakest, after being blown to a billion smithereens and reincarnating a mere fraction of his essence on Earth was equal to Odin and Zeus, then it was stated twice that once he returned to full power, he'd be capable of challenging or defeating the entire Celestial Race.

So I wouldn't use Dormammu as a measuring stick for the power of Skyfathers. The various cosmic beings across the mystic planes aren't meant to all be equal. Some are closer to SKyfathers, some are closer to Celestials, and some are closer to Absrtracts.

Like since its fairly consistent that Yggdrasil spans all realities, and that Eternity is always shown to be far above the characters that can affect it, there has to be some way for it to be reconciled in-universe. Like Surtur could burn all of reality in the "Everything Burns" arc, but I don't think the intent was for him to be killing infinite Eternities.

I think High 1-B would lead to the most consistent scaling. Going back to the old several-thread long debate over Yggdrasil's tier (which was possibly one of the longest CRT series in this site's history), there was a pretty strong consensus over Yggdrasil at least having lesser manifestations in each Universe, then something akin to a "true form Yggdrasil." I wonder why we nowadays treat all of Yggdrasil as only an Omniversal structure and not having lesser manifestations?

As for the Surtur stuff, I'm not knowledgeable on the character or that arc, but having spent lots of time on the old Skyfather CRT's, it was mostly agreed that Surtur's feats there involved tremendous preparation and/or chain reactions.

 

[ObberGobb]

Dormammu specifically, he's consistently meant to be closer to Abstracts than Skyfathers. One of his first feats (if not his very first feat) was holding his own against Universal Eternity to the point where their clash would've disintegrated both of themselves. He has that one feat of warping Lord Chaos and Master Order over a game of chess with Odin, but that's pretty outliery since Dormammu, at his absolute weakest, after being blown to a billion smithereens and reincarnating a mere fraction of his essence on Earth was equal to Odin and Zeus, then it was stated twice that once he returned to full power, he'd be capable of challenging or defeating the entire Celestial Race.

I agree with you there, I don't think that Odin or any Skyfather Tier should have any scaling to Dormammu. The two I was thinking of though were the Phoenix Force (which Odin and Thor are stated to be able to kill by the Avengers computer) and Thor's own Godblast.

I think High 1-B would lead to the most consistent scaling. Going back to the old several-thread long debate over Yggdrasil's tier (which was possibly one of the longest CRT series in this site's history), there was a pretty strong consensus over Yggdrasil at least having lesser manifestations in each Universe, then something akin to a "true form Yggdrasil." I wonder why we nowadays treat all of Yggdrasil as only an Omniversal structure and not having lesser manifestations?

I think that could be a good compromise

As for the Surtur stuff, I'm not knowledgeable on the character or that arc, but having spent lots of time on the old Skyfather CRT's, it was mostly agreed that Surtur's feats there involved tremendous preparation and/or chain reactions.

This was a prep time feat so wouldn't scale to him anyway, but my worry was that the story still doesn't treat it as killing infinite Eternities. We also have a couple other feats that are likely specifically about alternate realities rather than other realms within the 616 reality that makes me hesitant to write off Skyfather Tiers scaling beyond just one reality. Basically, while I would be happy with Yggdrasil just scaling to 616, I feel like there are enough feats affecting multiple realities that don't imply the killings of Universal Eternities that its still worth looking into.

 

[ObberGobb]

Is this feat listed on Phoenix Force's profile accepted as being about alternate numbered realities? If so, then that's one feat of characters below Eternity affecting infinite realities.

 

[Eseseso]

Is this feat listed on Phoenix Force's profile accepted as being about alternate numbered realities? If so, then that's one feat of characters below Eternity affecting infinite realities.

Tbf, the Phoenix Force is about Abstract level

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

 

[DivineCreator389]

Yggdrasil is "everything" and has "roots and branches in all that is." It is also stated to exist across all planes of reality. This means that it be at least High 1-B due to encompassing all of Earth-616's realms. Furthermore, it has been stated to encompass of the Multiverse's timelines. This is supported by the fact that when the Enchantress wounded Yggdrasil with her magic, it threatened to destroy all realities. These means that beyond just scaling to the size of Earth-616, this would scale to all realities in the multiverse. This makes it a Low 1-A structure.

Proposal #1: Scale Yggdrasil to Low 1-A due to being connected to all realities across the multiverse

Agree! Hellords , Skyfather , and others deserve an upgrage!... But if Yggdrasil scales to all realities/Eternities across the multiverse, shouldn't this makes it at least 1-A ?

Btw, Universal-Eternity (m-body) could also scale to 1-A. (here)

 

[ObberGobb]

Oh wow, so I guess that if that thread goes through then it's between High 1-B and 1-A for Skyfathers. The problem that we are currently facing is whether or not these characters can actually scale to infinite realities without scaling to infinite Uni Eternities.

Phoenix Force seems to do that I think, and Odin is stated by the Avengers' computer to be one of the beings who can kill the Phoenix Force. Alternatively, Odin currently scales to the "internal contents of Eternity," so we could have them scale to an infinite number of "internal contents." But someone here mentioned that there are other feats of Skyfather Tier characters doing thing that damage the fabric of Eternity. I know that Thor and Phoenix Force have feats like this, but I don't know about other characters.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Oh wow, so I guess that if that thread goes through then it's between High 1-B and 1-A for Skyfathers. The problem that we are currently facing is whether or not these characters can actually scale to infinite realities without scaling to infinite Uni Eternities.

Phoenix Force seems to do that I think, and Odin is stated by the Avengers' computer to be one of the beings who can kill the Phoenix Force. Alternatively, Odin currently scales to the "internal contents of Eternity," so we could have them scale to an infinite number of "internal contents." But someone here mentioned that there are other feats of Skyfather Tier characters doing thing that damage the fabric of Eternity. I know that Thor and Phoenix Force have feats like this, but I don't know about other characters.

But that's straight up not how the Tiering System works, it's impossible to significantly affect multiple Universes and only impact their "internal contents" and not the full extent of their spatiotemporality. There's not such a thing as destrying infinite timelines on a 3-D level, for instance.

And the Phoenix Force has even more statements for being Abstract level, so I can't imagine that being anything but an outlier. The Universal Phoenix Force varies, and could get even higher since at its peak, it enabled 4 Phoenix Force avatars to forcibly restrain the First Firmament's entire Omniversal flood (the feat we currently use to scale Phoenix Force Thor to High 1-A).

 

[StrangeDays20]

I would also like to add that Odin and Zeus have a feat related to the infinite embassy would could possibly be a Low 1A structure.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I would also like to add that Odin and Zeus have a feat related to the infinite embassy would could possibly be a Low 1A structure.

Elaborate?

 

[StrangeDays20]

Elaborate?

Unless I'm missing something, Odin and Zeus shook the infinite embassy in their fight. The infinite embassy sitting above earth's cluster of dimensions.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Unless I'm missing something, Odin and Zeus shook the infinite embassy in their fight. The infinite embassy sitting above earth's cluster of dimensions.

1. Being above an infinite-dimensional structure is just Higher into High 1-B.

2. It doesn't say they shake the embassy, just that their fight within it "made the world shake with rage."

3. Is the embassy even large enough to be tiered? Is it an entire dimension in itself or Universe sized?

4. It doesn't make much sense for them to threaten to destroy or significantly affect the embassy when it's stated by Mephisto that all mystic beings who attend it must come in relative peace, or the Living Tribunal will personally eradicate them. Keep in mind that the embassy's casual members include warring mystic beings like Fear Lords, or even Demon Lords competing for the title of Satan like literal Shuma-Gorath. Why would Skyfathers of all people violate the embassy's peace?

 

[StrangeDays20]

1. Being above an infinite-dimensional structure is just Higher into High 1-B.

2. It doesn't say they shake the embassy, just that their fight within it "made the world shake with rage."

3. Is the embassy even large enough to be tiered? Is it an entire dimension in itself or Universe sized?

4. It doesn't make much sense for them to threaten to destroy or significantly affect the embassy when it's stated by Mephisto that all mystic beings who attend it must come in relative peace, or the Living Tribunal will personally eradicate them. Keep in mind that the embassy's casual members include warring mystic beings like Fear Lords, or even Demon Lords competing for the title of Satan like literal Shuma-Gorath. Why would Skyfathers of all people violate the embassy's peace?

Okay

 

[ObberGobb]

So, if the 1-A thread goes through, and we decide to just have Yggdrasil scale to one reality, would that make Yggdrasil 1-A?

 

[Eseseso]

So, if the 1-A thread goes through, and we decide to just have Yggdrasil scale to one reality, would that make Yggdrasil 1-A?

Yes

 

[ObberGobb]

I think I'll just drop scaling to all realities, since it wouldn't change the tier much anyway and would just be confusing. Basically, I think it should just scale to all of the 616 reality.

So, with that in mind, could I get a tally on votes? Also on the other two proposals too. Regardless on the vote I'll wait to implement until @Eseseso's thread is complete, since that will change the tiering of Yggdrasil.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Who qualifies for Tier 0 in the current Marvel verse ? Marvel has literally like 10-15 High 1A beings but no tier 0 characters.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Who qualifies for Tier 0 in the current Marvel verse ? Marvel has literally like 10-15 High 1A beings but no tier

Only The Divine Creator currently. Old TOAA has statements of being compared to the Authors / God from the Bible / Creator of the Old Definition of the Omniverse, but none of those things really translate well to a solid tier (unless we're back in 2018 then this would've kept him as 0)

 

[Eseseso]

Pretty sure that the existence of The One Below All ruins any chance of a Tier 0 One Above All

 

[ObberGobb]

Pretty sure that the existence of The One Below All ruins any chance of a Tier 0 One Above All

How come? Tbh I don't understand the difference between High 1-A and 0.

 

[Eseseso]

How come? Tbh I don't understand the difference between High 1-A and 0.

TOBA is (to the best of my knowledge) the counterpart/equal of The One Above All and a counterbalance to him, which proves that TOAA is not above all things if there exists one being equal to him.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Similar to Great evil beast from DC comics? TOAA imo should get a different key as divine Creator.

 

[Dreamer23421]

but toaa/toba are not same being ? i'm pretty sure it was stated countless times, as for great evil beast and light of creation in dc are different entities

 

[Excellence616]

This discussion should be done at the general discussion thread