Excellence616
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All other Hulks except Meastro shouldn't scale to Hulk. Hulk varied power is the problem.
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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
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Personally, I don't see why not
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Applied this
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Wasn’t Galactus weakened at this point? Not to mention that Thor scaling to a moderately fed Galactus doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in general.
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I'm pretty sure this was the same storyline that Galactus fought and proved superior to Odin, which is one of the reasons for his 2-A rating. So Thor was harming a 2-A Galactus here
If anything, it was Thor who was weakened at this point because he had a growing injury caused by Yggdrasil (which dragged on all the way until the Fear Itself event, if I'm not mistaken)
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I don't think he was weakened, but he was concentrated on his mental battle with Odin. Thor also by no means one shot Galactus, he was still fine and continued to fight Odin. So it's kinda just Thor hurting an off-guard Galactus.
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So it’s not useful as supporting evidence for this.
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I will rename it to “Thor harms galactus” but again, thats 2-A, if there exists more 2-C scaling chains please inform me
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Also, that used to be a part of moderately fed Galactus’ justification, not well fed Galactus.
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This isnt too far off for RKT not gonna lie (lies)
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We probably have to scale them to other characters instead, yes.
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Well, we should give them some sort of variable tiers to acknowledge that they are extremely inconsistent between writers, both in terms of power levels and power levels relative to other characters.
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I would much prefer if you avoid it. Base Thor's own feats do not reach anywhere near that high, and I keep explaining over than over that out of control chain-scaling really would give every single Marvel character 1-A tiers.
It is not just Thor that has been depicted as damaging beings far more powerful than himself, far less powerful characters have also damaged Thor considerably more frequently, just to name one example.
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We can’t do that, because that’s not how Varies tiers work. They need to have a canonical reason for their power to vary, just being inconsistent doesn’t cut it.
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I was hoping to actually discuss this in another thread and discuss how this would mainly scale only to a maximum-exertion Thor and basically no one else.
I mean, in a bunch of the actual 2-A feats, Thor is either going 110% all out, or is extremely pissed.
But I don't want to derail too much which is why I was planning to make another thread once this concluded.
I'm sorry, but it's not like him having 2-A scaling is a one-time thing outside of the God Blast.
He has like 6 to 8 2-A feats that we know of.
But that should be discussed in another thread in the future.
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None of this is good-enough reasoning to justify a "Varies" tier in a series that has well-established hierarchies between characters to then make it go against our wiki rules. It'd be one thing if this was just a cartoon made for fun like Courage the Cowardly Dog or Looney Toons where there is no sense of power hierarchy and wasn't made with combat and fighting in mind, and even then it's pushing it.
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I don't think that we have any rule set in stone for that, and nor should we. There is absolutely no way to give the Celestials a consistent tier given how ridiculously incoherent they are in this area, and we need to officially acknowledge that, rather than be extremely dishonest to our visitors in this regard, and likely end up with lots of extremely unreliable chain-scaling issues as well. Are Doctor Doom's force fields suddenly of a Low 1-A scale due to enduring force blasts from Celestials for 28 minutes, for example? That doesn't make any sense.
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This only constitutes and extremely small number of all of his thousands of appearances, and he likely has over a hundred instances of tier 9 to 5 characters harming him as well, which isn't really any different beyond cherry-picking issues, and all of it gradually ends up with massive chain-scaling for all Marvel characters to each other.
This is the main reason why we should only scale him from his own feats, which only reach 2-C at their peak. We even have rules to prevent out of control chain-scaling for these characters.
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That is just not true. There are no well-established hierarchies at all within Marvel Comics. It runs on everybody can fight everybody as long as one of the several hundred writers feels like it, due to plot conventions, bias, or rule of cool. It is arguably far more inconsistent than either Looney Tunes or Courage the Cowardly Dog.
As such, we need to be extremely careful to avoid chain-scaling characters to each other for this particular verse, and have a responsibility to be honest to our visitors in cases of ridiculously extreme inconsistencies.
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If you want a more official explanation for the inconsistencies in the power levels of Celestials, we could probably use this though.
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We actually do. It's why the whole thread about whether cartoon characters could keep a "Varies" mechanism was made in the first place.
Depends on how many feats they have on that scale and what the actual context is behind those feats.
Frequency, consistency and context. The big three's of feats.
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There actually is, and it’s a very necessary rule because it prevents people from going “I don’t feel like finding consistency, so I’ll just slap a Varies tier on them”.
Yes, there is, it’s called giving them multiple keys. Or, even better, not assuming that every single Celestial is equal.
Giving every single Marvel character a Varies tier is far more dishonest than using common sense and consistency to find their tiers. Captain America having a Varies tier between 9-B and 3-C would be completely asinine, but what you’re suggesting would result in things like that.
Depends on the Celestials. Do they have consistent Low 1-A feats? Does their group have Low 1-A feats? If they don’t, then no, Doom’s forcefields wouldn’t scale to Low 1-A. Also out of all the characters you used for this analogy, you used Doom? The guy that has stuff like Low 1-C absorption in his standard equipment?
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Can you cite and link to it please?
Back when they were first introduced they could blow up planets, and an Odin-powered Destroyer could cut their arms off, and that was it.
Much later Tom DeFalco upgraded them to higher-dimensional entities that were several degrees of infinity above established as universal scale cosmic cubes.
During the Infinity Gauntlet story, they were again downplayed as minor threats to the collected here merely shown as universal scale Infinity Gems, as they merely attacked by throwing planets at Thanos.
During Heroes Return they were established to be able to create or contain universes within themselves, but that this took a lot of effort for them.
If I remember correctly, During an Eternals comic book storyline, the Celestials were established to be opposed and threatened by something called The Horde, which was essentially a swarm of planet-ravaging insects, and it was stated that they serve The Fulcrum, who was essentially played as an avatar of Jack Kirby.
During Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four run, Doctor Doom was able to endure an energy blast barrage from insane Celestials for 28 minutes, and Galactus was shown to be slightly stronger than individual Celestials when well-fed.
If I remember correctly, during an obscure X-Men story they were mentioned to have used a weapon to change the universe into one where divergent timelines/universes could be created to create a multiverse.
Again if I remember correctly, during a Matt Fraction Defenders maxiseries, it was established that Death Celestials existed and were counteracted by the Omega Council, which was not further explained at the time.
There was also a story in which Kang tricked Thor into offhandedly enchant his axe Jarnborn into being able to kill Celestials, which it did twice during this storyline, when wielded by Kang or his servants. The power of the Hulk and The Sentry were also shown capable of stopping or almost stopping the Celestial Exitar's descent when the latter was larger than the Earth.
During Al Ewing's Ultimates series, it was established that the Celestials were created as servants/servitors by The First Firmament, the original universe, but that a part of them rebelled and detonated a weapon that caused a part of The First Firmament to split off from him and form the first multiverse/second cosmos. They also helped Lifebringer Galactus fight against the servitors (presumably Death Celestials) who still served The First Firmament.
During Jason Aaron's Avengers run, the Celestials were possible to defeat or fight by the Ghost Rider, a giant Iron Man armor, and Thor and She-Hulk enlarged by the blood of Ymir.
During the King in Black storyline, several Celestials were easily defeated by Knull and converted into servant that were in turn beaten by The Sentry.
During one of Al Ewing's Defenders miniseries, it was revealed that the Omega Council are Beyonders, and that all Beyonders were created by the Celestials, but that they are more powerful than their creators.
During the recent Day of Judgement event, a single Celestial was able to easily defeat Thor via hax rather than raw power, and was shown to be able to blow up the planet Earth.
That is pretty much it. The Celestials certainly haven't ever explicitly displayed a scale of power anywhere near infinite degrees of infinity on their own, but some sort of weapon of theirs seems to have partially shattered The First Firmament, and Death Celestials/Aspirants were able to fight Lifebringer Galactus. Then again, Lifebringer Galactus was not ever shown at anywhere near a Low 1-A power level either, and Ego the Living Planet was also able to fight the Servitors.
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The problem is that there is almost no consistency whatsoever for Marvel Comics in terms of power levels. No coherence, nothing. All of its hundreds of writers tend to have completely different ideas in this regard, and often don't even bother to at all be consistent in their own stories either. Sometimes characters swing between 9-B and 1-A depending on the story. We are actively misleading our visitors by pretending otherwise.
They are all roughly comparable to each other. Some are larger and stronger, such as Exitar, but that is it. They certainly do not differ by many infinite degrees.
Well, I gave a suggestion above for simply using an old mention of them creating avatars when interacting with lower dimensions if you prefer:
Well, Thor's axe Jarnborn was also able to kill Exitar when wielded by Kang the Conqueror, if you prefer that example instead.
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You might not think there’s any consistency, but several people such as Zark, Confluctor and I (as well as a bunch of other people) have found consistency with numerous character because we actually tried to find it and didn’t just go “oh it’s inconsistent, let’s make them varies and call it a day”. Acting like there’s no consistency within the entire verse and that the tiers on the profiles are all misleading is actually extremely disrespectful and dismissive of the work that goes in to make and revise these pages.
Says who? Show me where in the comics it’s said that all Celestials are comparable to each other. Show me where it says that some of them can’t be infinitely stronger than others.
I reiterate the same logic as before: does Kang have consistent feats on that level? If not, then the feat would be disregarded as an outlier. The Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC page that you constantly point people to even says to use feats, consistency and common sense to determine the proper statistics of a character.
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Wasn't Jarnbjorn
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If we are going to keep them with a single Tier, we need something to keep people away from trying some unreasonable upgrades purely based on, for example, a Thor profile that only lists his 2-C key (which appears to be the intentions here)
In the end I agree with both sides here, using a Varies would be against the rules, and breaking it can cause more problems, on the other hand, Marvel Comics is undeniably massively inconsistent, so instead of a Varies or ignoring the problem, we need to think on a good way to scale them and avoid unreasonable stuff
In the end I agree with both sides here, using a Varies would be against the rules, and breaking it can cause more problems, on the other hand, Marvel Comics is undeniably massively inconsistent, so instead of a Varies or ignoring the problem, we need to think on a good way to scale them and avoid unreasonable stuff
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I was not intending to be disrespectful to the people in our wiki who are trying to find a coherent pattern. I greatly appreciate that they are helping out. I just think that Marvel's editorial department has often done an extremely bad job. That is all.
It is technically up to you to prove that they explicitly differ in power by infinite magnitudes, not the other way around, as I am going by Occam's razor, whereas you are making an extraordinary claim, but all that we know is that the entire host was slaughtered en masse by the Beyonders, that they were slaughtered en masse again by the Logos, that they were resurrected by the Never Queen, and fought together with Ego and Galactus against the Aspirants without any of them standing out.
If I remember correctly, it has been stated that Exitar is likely the most powerful among them, in the Tom DeFalco Celestials/Watchers war story, in which the Invisible Woman blew up Exitar's physical body, but he has never stood out to such an insane degree, and like I mentioned previously, The Sentry and The Hulk were almost able to stop his descent to Earth, and Thor's axe, which he enchanted for half a minute, was able to kill Exitar anyway. None of that implies infinite degrees of difference in power.
That said, if it was indeed stated in Fantastic Four #400 (likely the Celestials/Watchers war story) that Celestials create much weaker avatars for interacting with lower realities, we might have an in-continuity solution/justification for their variable tiering there. Especially as Scathan the Approver (a Celestial that has consistently been ignored afterwards) was strongly implied to be more powerful than The Living Tribunal in the original early 1990s Guardians of the Galaxy comic book.
It isn't a feat for Kang. It is a feat for young Thor's enchantment power, and it doesn't make any sense for him to be able to spend 30 seconds creating Celestial-slaying weaponry without any training in this area, even though even Odin didn't display this degree of magic power with all power in Asgard combined and while inhabiting the Destroyer armor.
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Yes, and sorry about being strayminded in accidentally calling it a hammer. I corrected the posts that said this.
Anyway, please see my reasoning above regarding Jarnborn.
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We cannot realistically give them a single tiers, as it would scale Ghost Rider, Thor, She-Hulk, Ymir, Iron Man, Knull, and Sentry to Low 1-A. However, we might have found a cheat solution/in-continuity "justification" for their tiering by listing their true forms as Low 1-A and their avatars as sometimes going as low as 3-C or somesuch.
Well, we have to be realistic about that we cannot just scale all characters to the strongest characters they ever fought against while ignoring all the weaker characters they fought against a much greater number of times. This is why I want us to mostly scale them from their own greatest explicit feats combined with consistent portrayals instead, and our rules for this issue say the same thing.
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Yeah, in some comic character's cases(Ex: Odin, Superman, Namor) a Varies tier works because they have CANONICAL reasoning to vary in power, but the second you start trying to have, say, Thanos vary becuase one writer writes him as Herald Tier when like a dozen others write him at Galactus-tier to Skyfather-tier, I think the best option then is to choose one of the ladder tiers that's the most consistent, and if somehow it's a tie or damn near it, THEN you just slap a likely/possibly there and put a note on Thanos's file.
Don't get me wrong, I don't read comic books(I've read like 2 for real), but striving for finding the most consistent rating is what we should always do, we shouldn't throw around a varies rating for characters with no reason to vary other than inconsistent, that's just... lazy. As a lazy person myself I can confirm it's lazy too.
Don't get me wrong, I don't read comic books(I've read like 2 for real), but striving for finding the most consistent rating is what we should always do, we shouldn't throw around a varies rating for characters with no reason to vary other than inconsistent, that's just... lazy. As a lazy person myself I can confirm it's lazy too.
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Hold up, when did anyone ever suggest that? As far as I can tell, the plan has always been “3-C normally, 2-C at peak” for Thor, Surfer, Hercules and those like them. The only characters with just 2-C would be the characters that scale above them at their peaks.
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Well, the Celestials have been so all over the place that we have to safeguard ourselves from scaling every single character that ever fought them efficiently, along with all of the characters at their level, and so onwards to Low 1-A.
However, as I mentioned above, it seems like we have likely found a "cheat" solution/explanation to this problem if it really has been explictly stated (in Fantastic Four issue 400) that they create much weaker avatars to interact with lower levels of reality.
However, as I mentioned above, it seems like we have likely found a "cheat" solution/explanation to this problem if it really has been explictly stated (in Fantastic Four issue 400) that they create much weaker avatars to interact with lower levels of reality.
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That is correct, yes.
Excellence616
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