Excellence616
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All other Hulks except Meastro shouldn't scale to Hulk. Hulk varied power is the problem.
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Personally, I don't see why notReal question, with the current state of the sandbox, would it be safe to go for a 2-C upgrade to the heralds?
Or should we wait for more feats?
Applied thisAll other Hulks except Meastro shouldn't scale to Hulk. Hulk varied power is the problem.
Wasn’t Galactus weakened at this point? Not to mention that Thor scaling to a moderately fed Galactus doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in general.Thor one-shots a moderately fed Galactus | The Mighty Thor (2011) #4
I'm pretty sure this was the same storyline that Galactus fought and proved superior to Odin, which is one of the reasons for his 2-A rating. So Thor was harming a 2-A Galactus hereWasn’t Galactus weakened at this point? Not to mention that Thor scaling to a moderately fed Galactus doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in general.
If anything, it was Thor who was weakened at this point because he had a growing injury caused by Yggdrasil (which dragged on all the way until the Fear Itself event, if I'm not mistaken)Multiverse level+ (His battle with Scrier and the Other threatened to destroy all universes. Killed a Mad Celestial. Consistently regarded by Doctor Strange to be more powerful than him, even with preparation. Fought against and proved superior to Odin, and regarded as his equal on two separate occasions)
I don't think he was weakened, but he was concentrated on his mental battle with Odin. Thor also by no means one shot Galactus, he was still fine and continued to fight Odin. So it's kinda just Thor hurting an off-guard Galactus.Wasn’t Galactus weakened at this point? Not to mention that Thor scaling to a moderately fed Galactus doesn’t make a whole lot of sense in general.
I'm pretty sure this was the same storyline that Galactus fought and proved superior to Odin, which is one of the reasons for his 2-A rating. So Thor was harming a 2-A Galactus here
So it’s not useful as supporting evidence for this.I don't think he was weakened, but he was concentrated on his mental battle with Odin. Thor also by no means one shot Galactus, he was still fine and continued to fight Odin. So it's kinda just Thor hurting an off-guard Galactus.
Also, that used to be a part of moderately fed Galactus’ justification, not well fed Galactus.I'm pretty sure this was the same storyline that Galactus fought and proved superior to Odin, which is one of the reasons for his 2-A rating. So Thor was harming a 2-A Galactus here
GrossConsidering Thor started this year at 4-B and will be 2-C by the end, at the rate we're going he will be High 1-A by this time next year
-_-We can just use Thor hurting well-fed Galactus in the 2-A Thor CRT that'll follow this thread's conclusion
This isnt too far off for RKT not gonna lie (lies)Considering Thor started this year at 4-B and will be 2-C by the end, at the rate we're going he will be High 1-A by this time next year
We probably have to scale them to other characters instead, yes.All other Hulks except Meastro shouldn't scale to Hulk. Hulk varied power is the problem.
Well, we should give them some sort of variable tiers to acknowledge that they are extremely inconsistent between writers, both in terms of power levels and power levels relative to other characters.Real question, with the current state of the sandbox, would it be safe to go for a 2-C upgrade to the heralds?
Or should we wait for more feats?
I would much prefer if you avoid it. Base Thor's own feats do not reach anywhere near that high, and I keep explaining over than over that out of control chain-scaling really would give every single Marvel character 1-A tiers.We can just use Thor hurting well-fed Galactus in the 2-A Thor CRT that'll follow this thread's conclusion
We can’t do that, because that’s not how Varies tiers work. They need to have a canonical reason for their power to vary, just being inconsistent doesn’t cut it.Well, we should give them some sort of variable tiers to acknowledge that they are extremely inconsistent between writers, both in terms of power levels and power levels relative to other characters.
I was hoping to actually discuss this in another thread and discuss how this would mainly scale only to a maximum-exertion Thor and basically no one else.I would much prefer if you avoid it. Base Thor's own feats do not reach anywhere near that high, and I keep explaining over than over that out of control chain-scaling really would give every single Marvel character 1-A tiers.
It is not just Thor that has been depicted as damaging beings far more powerful than himself, far less powerful characters have also damaged Thor considerably more frequently, just to name one example.
None of this is good-enough reasoning to justify a "Varies" tier in a series that has well-established hierarchies between characters to then make it go against our wiki rules. It'd be one thing if this was just a cartoon made for fun like Courage the Cowardly Dog or Looney Toons where there is no sense of power hierarchy and wasn't made with combat and fighting in mind, and even then it's pushing it.I would much prefer if you avoid it. Base Thor's own feats do not reach anywhere near that high, and I keep explaining over than over that out of control chain-scaling really would give every single Marvel character 1-A tiers.
It is not just Thor that has been depicted as damaging beings far more powerful than himself, far less powerful characters have also damaged Thor considerably more frequently, just to name one example.
I don't think that we have any rule set in stone for that, and nor should we. There is absolutely no way to give the Celestials a consistent tier given how ridiculously incoherent they are in this area, and we need to officially acknowledge that, rather than be extremely dishonest to our visitors in this regard, and likely end up with lots of extremely unreliable chain-scaling issues as well. Are Doctor Doom's force fields suddenly of a Low 1-A scale due to enduring force blasts from Celestials for 28 minutes, for example? That doesn't make any sense.We can’t do that, because that’s not how Varies tiers work. They need to have a canonical reason for their power to vary, just being inconsistent doesn’t cut it.
This only constitutes and extremely small number of all of his thousands of appearances, and he likely has over a hundred instances of tier 9 to 5 characters harming him as well, which isn't really any different beyond cherry-picking issues, and all of it gradually ends up with massive chain-scaling for all Marvel characters to each other.I was hoping to actually discuss this in another thread and discuss how this would mainly scale only to a maximum-exertion Thor and basically no one else.
I mean, in a bunch of the actual 2-A feats, Thor is either going 110% all out, or is extremely pissed.
But I don't want to derail too much which is why I was planning to make another thread once this concluded.
I'm sorry, but it's not like him having 2-A scaling is a one-time thing outside of the God Blast.
He has like 6 to 8 2-A feats that we know of.
But that should be discussed in another thread in the future.
That is just not true. There are no well-established hierarchies at all within Marvel Comics. It runs on everybody can fight everybody as long as one of the several hundred writers feels like it, due to plot conventions, bias, or rule of cool. It is arguably far more inconsistent than either Looney Tunes or Courage the Cowardly Dog.None of this is good-enough reasoning to justify a "Varies" tier in a series that has well-established hierarchies between characters to then make it go against our wiki rules. It'd be one thing if this was just a cartoon made for fun like Courage the Cowardly Dog or Looney Toons where there is no sense of power hierarchy and wasn't made with combat and fighting in mind, and even then it's pushing it.
If you want a more official explanation for the inconsistencies in the power levels of Celestials, we could probably use this though.Not exactly but in Fantastic Four Vol 1 400 it is made clear that their armors are bodies that they send to the lower plane and with which they interact
We actually do. It's why the whole thread about whether cartoon characters could keep a "Varies" mechanism was made in the first place.I don't think that we have any rule set in stone for that, and nor should we.
Depends on how many feats they have on that scale and what the actual context is behind those feats.There is absolutely no way to give the Celestials a consistent tier given how ridiculously incoherent they are in this area, and we need to officially acknowledge that, rather than be extremely dishonest to our visitors in this regard, and likely end up with lots of extremely unreliable chain-scaling issues as well. Are Doctor Doom's force fields suddenly of a Low 1-A scale due to enduring force blasts from Celestials for 28 minutes, for example? That doesn't make any sense.
There actually is, and it’s a very necessary rule because it prevents people from going “I don’t feel like finding consistency, so I’ll just slap a Varies tier on them”.I don't think that we have any rule set in stone for that, and nor should we.
Yes, there is, it’s called giving them multiple keys. Or, even better, not assuming that every single Celestial is equal.There is absolutely no way to give the Celestials a consistent tier given how ridiculously incoherent they are in this area
Giving every single Marvel character a Varies tier is far more dishonest than using common sense and consistency to find their tiers. Captain America having a Varies tier between 9-B and 3-C would be completely asinine, but what you’re suggesting would result in things like that.rather than be extremely dishonest to our visitors in this regard, and likely end up with lots of extremely unreliable chain-scaling issues as well.
Depends on the Celestials. Do they have consistent Low 1-A feats? Does their group have Low 1-A feats? If they don’t, then no, Doom’s forcefields wouldn’t scale to Low 1-A. Also out of all the characters you used for this analogy, you used Doom? The guy that has stuff like Low 1-C absorption in his standard equipment?Are Doctor Doom's force fields suddenly of a Low 1-A scale due to enduring force blasts from Celestials for 28 minutes, for example? That doesn't make any sense.
Can you cite and link to it please?We actually do. It's why the whole thread about whether cartoon characters could keep a "Varies" mechanism was made in the first place.
Back when they were first introduced they could blow up planets, and an Odin-powered Destroyer could cut their arms off, and that was it.Depends on how many feats they have on that scale and what the actual context is behind those feats.
Frequency, consistency and context. The big three's of feats.
The problem is that there is almost no consistency whatsoever for Marvel Comics in terms of power levels. No coherence, nothing. All of its hundreds of writers tend to have completely different ideas in this regard, and often don't even bother to at all be consistent in their own stories either. Sometimes characters swing between 9-B and 1-A depending on the story. We are actively misleading our visitors by pretending otherwise.There actually is, and it’s a very necessary rule because it prevents people from going “I don’t feel like finding consistency, so I’ll just slap a Varies tier on them”.
They are all roughly comparable to each other. Some are larger and stronger, such as Exitar, but that is it. They certainly do not differ by many infinite degrees.Yes, there is, it’s called giving them multiple keys. Or, even better, not assuming that every single Celestial is equal.
Well, I gave a suggestion above for simply using an old mention of them creating avatars when interacting with lower dimensions if you prefer:Giving every single Marvel character a Varies tier is far more dishonest than using common sense and consistency to find their tiers. Captain America having a Varies tier between 9-B and 3-C would be completely asinine, but what you’re suggesting would result in things like that.
Not exactly but in Fantastic Four Vol 1 400 it is made clear that their armors are bodies that they send to the lower plane and with which they interact
Well, Thor's axe Jarnborn was also able to kill Exitar when wielded by Kang the Conqueror, if you prefer that example instead.Depends on the Celestials. Do they have consistent Low 1-A feats? Does their group have Low 1-A feats? If they don’t, then no, Doom’s forcefields wouldn’t scale to Low 1-A. Also out of all the characters you used for this analogy, you used Doom? The guy that has stuff like Low 1-C absorption in his standard equipment?
You might not think there’s any consistency, but several people such as Zark, Confluctor and I (as well as a bunch of other people) have found consistency with numerous character because we actually tried to find it and didn’t just go “oh it’s inconsistent, let’s make them varies and call it a day”. Acting like there’s no consistency within the entire verse and that the tiers on the profiles are all misleading is actually extremely disrespectful and dismissive of the work that goes in to make and revise these pages.The point is that there is almost no consistency whatsoever for Marvel Comics in terms of power levels. No coherence, nothing. All of its hundreds of writers tend to have completely different ideas in this regard, and often don't even bother to at all be consistent in their own stories either. Sometimes characters swing between 9-B and 1-A depending on the story. We are actively misleading our visitors by pretending otherwise.
Says who? Show me where in the comics it’s said that all Celestials are comparable to each other. Show me where it says that some of them can’t be infinitely stronger than others.They are all roughly comparable to each other. Some are larger and stronger, such as Exitar, but that is it. They certainly do not differ by many infinite degrees.
I reiterate the same logic as before: does Kang have consistent feats on that level? If not, then the feat would be disregarded as an outlier. The Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC page that you constantly point people to even says to use feats, consistency and common sense to determine the proper statistics of a character.Well, Thor's axe Jarnborn was also able to kill Exitar when wielded by Kang the Conqueror, if you prefer that example instead.
Wasn't JarnbjornWell, Thor's axe Jarnborn was also able to kill Exitar when wielded by Kang the Conqueror, if you prefer that example instead.
I was not intending to be disrespectful to the people in our wiki who are trying to find a coherent pattern. I greatly appreciate that they are helping out. I just think that Marvel's editorial department has often done an extremely bad job. That is all.You might not think there’s any consistency, but several people such as Zark, Confluctor and I (as well as a bunch of other people) have found consistency with numerous character because we actually tried to find it and didn’t just go “oh it’s inconsistent, let’s make them varies and call it a day”. Acting like there’s no consistency within the entire verse and that the tiers on the profiles are all misleading is actually extremely disrespectful and dismissive of the work that goes in to make and revise these pages.
It is technically up to you to prove that they explicitly differ in power by infinite magnitudes, not the other way around, as I am going by Occam's razor, whereas you are making an extraordinary claim, but all that we know is that the entire host was slaughtered en masse by the Beyonders, that they were slaughtered en masse again by the Logos, that they were resurrected by the Never Queen, and fought together with Ego and Galactus against the Aspirants without any of them standing out.Says who? Show me where in the comics it’s said that all Celestials are comparable to each other. Show me where it says that some of them can’t be infinitely stronger than others.
It isn't a feat for Kang. It is a feat for young Thor's enchantment power, and it doesn't make any sense for him to be able to spend 30 seconds creating Celestial-slaying weaponry without any training in this area, even though even Odin didn't display this degree of magic power with all power in Asgard combined and while inhabiting the Destroyer armor.I reiterate the same logic as before: does Kang have consistent feats on that level? If not, then the feat would be disregarded as an outlier. The Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC page that you constantly point people to even says to use feats, consistency and common sense to determine the proper statistics of a character.
Yes, and sorry about being strayminded in accidentally calling it a hammer. I corrected the posts that said this.Wasn't Jarnbjornthe axeenchanted so that it could specifically cut through Celestial armour, which is like Durability Negation or something?
We cannot realistically give them a single tiers, as it would scale Ghost Rider, Thor, She-Hulk, Ymir, Iron Man, Knull, and Sentry to Low 1-A. However, we might have found a cheat solution/in-continuity "justification" for their tiering by listing their true forms as Low 1-A and their avatars as sometimes going as low as 3-C or somesuch.If we are going to keep them with a single Tier, we need something to keep people away from trying some unreasonable upgrades purely based on, for example, a Thor profile that only lists his 2-C key (which appears to be the intentions here)
Well, we have to be realistic about that we cannot just scale all characters to the strongest characters they ever fought against while ignoring all the weaker characters they fought against a much greater number of times. This is why I want us to mostly scale them from their own greatest explicit feats combined with consistent portrayals instead, and our rules for this issue say the same thing.In the end I agree with both sides here, using a Varies would be against the rules, and breaking it can cause more problems, on the other hand, Marvel Comics is undeniably massively inconsistent, so instead of a Varies or ignoring the problem, we need to think on a good way to scale them and avoid unreasonable stuff
Hold up, when did anyone ever suggest that? As far as I can tell, the plan has always been “3-C normally, 2-C at peak” for Thor, Surfer, Hercules and those like them. The only characters with just 2-C would be the characters that scale above them at their peaks.Thor profile that only lists his 2-C key (which appears to be the intentions here)
That is correct, yes.Hold up, when did anyone ever suggest that? As far as I can tell, the plan has always been “3-C normally, 2-C at peak” for Thor, Surfer, Hercules and those like them. The only characters with just 2-C would be the characters that scale above them at their peaks.