The idea that you are arguing that the Presence only made half of the Source Wall and that someone else made the other half, and the fact that you thinking making this claim puts the onus on me to prove otherwise is not really worth taking seriously.
Because no staff members have participated in the thread?
Strawmanning an argument doesn't make it disappear.
Exactly
"True" Source Wall? As compared to the "False" Source Wall?
I mean, True Source Wall = Highest Source Wall that exist at the edge of Map. There are lower Source Walls in lower planes, as explained by Transcending.
Ahh yes, the mysterious extra Source Walls that no one in DC history has ever mentioned.
This is common, the point I don't see as necessary is how they interpret things in this context.
Going by the current canon, the wall was created by the Cosmic Raptor, not the Presence anyway.
If the Source Wall had all existed in the same dimensional level? I would have agreed with you. But in this case, the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels, and the wiki explicitly doesn't deal feats of destruction of Source Wall to automatically scale to 1-A.
Go change how the wiki treats the wall then
That's irrelevant to the discussion being had, which is about what the "Presence's creation" refers to in terms of his name maintaining existence. Even in Lucifer, the Presence himself didn't create the multiverse, Michael did, but the Presence still scales to this because he created Michael, and because his name and will is what maintains manifest reality. We know that this includes the Source Wall, which encompasses the entire Multiverse. You're trying to argue that this only encompasses lower parts of the Source Wall, but have provided no basis for this separation and it logically interferes with the story.
Destroying parts and sections of the wall doesn't automatically scale to 1-A, for obvious reasons. The same way destroying part of a building isn't building level unless it's the entire building. This doesn't change the fact that the Presence's will is what manifests the Source Wall's continued existence. There is no logical basis for applying that to only specific sections of the wall, especially given the context of the story.
In the first instance however, Presence gave Michael his powers, Presence didn't give Cosmic Raptor his powers, So retconned.
The Cosmic Raptors power most likely does come from the Presence, but that's not the point being made.
He does, because his interpretation separates a singular construct arbitrarily. Moreover, we do not "by default take the lower interpretation" if such an interpretation is unsupported by evidence.
I have addressed this repeatedly. The storyline regarding the Presence and his creation does not mesh with this claim of the Source Wall having parts external to the Presence's creation. The idea of Lucifer going into the void and creating his own multiverse is a shock to the Host of Heaven. It's unthinkable to them to have something outside what the Presence has created. This is completely incompatible with the idea that only part of the Source Wall is part of his creation, and immediately outside of it is a higher form of the same wall, that isn't part of the Presence's creation, and simply no one was aware of it and never references this.
It was an analogy for the concept. How the wiki treats the Source Wall does not support the claims you are making.
Why?
That's how the wiki's interpretation works, plus the Monitors referred to multiple Source Walls existing with Anti-Life in-between them before.
I proved it a valid possibility, that is enough.
That just means the Host lacks awareness, which makes sense. The higher parts of the Wall isn't dimensionally equal to which they know, it's dimensionally and qualitatively superior. The higher parts of the Wall are a solid 1-A compared to the Low 1-C of the Sphere and even lower of the Orrery.
This was addressed before.
Can you elaborate on this logic? I don't understand why Destiny's book not encompassing Lucifer's creation equals to the map being part of the Presence's creation.
Can you elaborate?
Because the power of the Supercelestials does.
No, it isn't. The fact that destroying a chunk of the wall doesn't scale you to the entire wall is not supportive of your claim.
No, it isn't. We are not solely looking at what is "possible" we are considering what is probable and most likely. I can refer to a scene with Batman and Joker fighting and say "well what if this whole thing was a dream?" and that's certainly possible, but that doesn't create a burden of proof on someone else to prove it's not a dream. Offering a hypothetically possible, but far-fetched, interpretation of an event doesn't mean other people have to disprove it.
No, it doesn't. I'm not just referring to average angels. Michael himself, the Endless, Lucifer, et cetera, regard the Presence's creation this way. Your divided model for the Source Wall is pure speculation and is incompatible with the storyline.
Addressing an argument doesn't make it magically disappear if the counter-argument is not sufficient. The reasoning was valid, Destiny's book covering the events of the entire Multiverse indicate that it is part of the Presence's creation.
Because the book only covers the Presence's creation.
The power of the Supercelestials to create the Multiverses was stated to come from the Presence, it wasn't stated to be their general power.
Destroying a chunk of a 1-A structure is 1-A, since the difference between 1-A and Low 1-A is more than a qualitative superiority.
You didn't understand what I said. I said I proved it a valid possibility, the fight between Batman and Joker being a dream is not a valid possibility because it has zero basis to it. I have based my possibility.
What do you mean?
Scans?
I do not think anyone addressed my counter-argument.
I don't consider the map to be part of the Presence's creation
Perpetua says in creating the Multiverse she hopes to please the Source of her power. It also stands to reason that if the Supercelestials are agents of multiversal creation being tasked out by the Presence that the Presence also created the Supercelestials, unless we think a separate unmentioned deity created them and then the Presence somehow became in charge of them, or if we theorize they somehow created themselves and then started working for the Presence. The most reasonable answer is that the Presence/Source created them.
Again, you are missing the point. This isn't about the term "1-A" this is about why destroying a portion of a structure does not scale you to the entire structure, and the fact that this difference has nothing to do with the discussion of separating the Source Wall in terms of only part of it being within the Presence's creation.
Then you're using the wrong words entirely. A fight being a dream is absolutely a valid possibility. You haven't provided actual evidence for saying the wall was created by different people, or that the Presence's creation only encompasses half of it. It's purely speculative the same way the "dream fight" would be.
This is peppered throughout the entire Lucifer storyline, but particularly with regard to Lucifer creating his own multiverse and the Presence vacating creation. I do not have the time to read through the whole thing to demonstrate this for you.
The comics disagree.
Hitchen's Razor then.
Yes it is?
Noice argument
Alright, I'll answer it for Deagon.
Believe it or not, simply naming off concepts you read about in Wikipedia articles doesn't make an argument true or false, or valid or invalid. It certainly won't result in a CRT getting approved if the argument is based on willful ignorance of the storyline, and saying that anyone who doesn't spoonfeed you an understanding of certain concepts and themes should be ignored isn't going to convince other people, especially ones who are already familiar with the story.
She never said "in creating the Multiverse", you are adding that part. She only said she wanted to please the Source of her power.
If Jason Momoa tasks his bodyguards to protect him, does that mean he created them? Non-Sequitur.
Not out of the realm of possibility, BUT
This seems to be the better alternative. Lots of characters in DC have just existed without a creator, they could have just existed like that. They could have worked for the Presence to gain the material for creating Multiverses.
That's not the most reasonable answer, that's a theory at best, an assumption at worst.
It doesn't scale you to the entire structure but it still scales you to the same tier. You would just be downscaled.
My point is that the Wall exists in different dimensional levels, so at certain levels it is 1-A, while in other levels it's 4-B. There's nothing suggesting the 1-A levels are within the Presence's creation. I will try to explain with an analogy. Suppose I am a DC character existing in the Sphere. One day I decided to create some realms larger than The Sphere but smaller than Limbo and fit the gaps between them. So I do so. Now my creation some of the Source Wall. Why? Because the Source Wall exists everywhere and nowhere. But does it contain the 1-A parts of the Source Wall? The final thing? No. Same thing here.
I don't think you understood what I meant by "valid". Is it a true possibility? Yes, and it's valid in that way. But is it something that can be used in debates? No
Wrong. I would like you to look at this chart. I am sure you know about this as you yourself have used this before. An explanation needs three things- claim, evidence, and reasoning. The dream fight has a claim, but no evidence or reasoning. My claim however, also has evidence and reasoning
So I have a complete explanation. The Dream fight doesn't. I didn't say the Wall was created by different people. Presence's creation encompassing only a part of the Wall is a definite possibility which I have based. That is enough.
They don't, however, continuing this line of argument would be the same as one of us saying "Yes" and the other saying "No". There's no point to it so I will drop it.
Exactly
You are claiming it's based on willful ignorance, burden is on you to prove it. Saying you can't prove evidence for your claims but it should still be accepted doesn't accept it. If you can't provide proof to your claims, why are you making them?
She said this in response to her sons asking what the purpose of a multiverse was.
This is completely false equivalence which ignores the setting and context. Terrible argument.
The better alternative is that the supercelestials just-so-happened to create themselves and then started working for the Presence, who asked them to make multiverses? That's ridiculous. You are making this assertion solely out of convenience, not because it is rational.
You can claim that if you want, it doesn't make much of a difference to me.
Once again, this is illogical. There is no reason why lower sections of the Source Wall would be dependent on the Presence's will to remain in existence, but higher levels separately would not. This idea of separating the Source Wall in and out of the Presence's creation is mental gymnastics with no evidentiary basis for it.
And yet, here you are.
You have provided no evidence that some parts of the Source Wall are inside the Presence's creation whereas others are outside of it. Your reasoning itself is poor and ignores the context of the story.
It's a matter of what amount of argumentation is worth my effort. In the DC general thread someone asked me to "prove" Quantum Superman was referring to Nil when he said higher dimension. Could I go and receive the scans that demonstrate this? Yes, I could. Do I intend to waste my time on someone who hasn't even read the comic book? Not really, no.
I agree
And she said that she cannot speak to its purpose, and then that she hopes to please the Source of her power. Her power is not the Multiverse. She was trying to impress the Source with how great her power was, not with how great her Multiverse was.
Calling it a terrible argument doesn't counter it. Look, all you have been doing in this CRT has been calling my arguments terrible and laughably bad without countering them, can you focus on the point instead?
Not exactly. I am saying that The Hands wanted to create the Multiverses, but they didn't have the material to, and hence asked the Source for material.
This is because the Source Wall exists in different dimensional levels. From the perspective of the higher layers, the lower layers are fiction, infinitesimal, illusion, unreal, or something like that. Presence's will is helping sections of the source wall that are not even real to the higher layers.
You have provided no evidence that the Presence's creation encompasses the entire Wall either. All we know is that the Presence's creation contains a part of the Source Wall or the entire thing. And the wiki clearly distincts the lower layers with the higher layers as proved by POTM's blog. So we take the lower interpretation, that is, it contains only a part of it.
You don't need to consider it worth your time, no problem. Your argument just wouldn't count, because you not considering it worth your time is your problem, not mine.
It is their burden to explain their claims to me and back it up. If they can't, they shouldn't make the claims.
I don't declare myself the winner usually, in any normal argument. I only declare myself so in specific debates, and I am sure you know what I am talking about.
This doesn't make any sense. The entire context of the conversation is explaining what a multiverse is, and what it's purpose is.
You're right. Consider the above response. How much time am I meant to spend explaining obvious story elements to someone who is being willfully ignorant of the story? "Impress the Source with how great her power was?"
I have already explained why this assertion does not make any sense given the context of the story, and the fact you've given no evidence of it.
The default assumption is that if his creation contains "the Source Wall" then it contains "the Source Wall." You are the one advocating for completely arbitrarily divisions, but you have absolutely no evidence for this.
this is overkillThis doesn't make any sense. The entire context of the conversation is explaining what a multiverse is, and what it's purpose is.
She creates her sons, and explains she was sent to create a system of life. They ask her what she's holding, she says a multiverse. They ask what the purpose of a multiverse is, she says she can't speak to it purpose, but she will say she hopes to please the Source of her power. She hopes to create something dynamic, beautiful, striking, and unique. She then explains the basic structure of the multiverse.
It is clear from the context that she is explaining that her job is to create a multiverse, and wants to please the Source of her power (the Source/Presence, who tasked her with creating a multiverse) and explains that she wants to make something unique and beautiful. This obviously means that this goal of creating a unique and beautiful multiverse is how she intends to please the Source.
I don't know how anyone could read that story and think somehow it meant that she was trying to impress the Source with how much power she had. That makes absolutely no sense given the context.
You're right. Consider the above response. How much time am I meant to spend explaining obvious story elements to someone who is being willfully ignorant of the story? "Impress the Source with how great her power was?"
I do not have the time, energy, or desire, to personally and individually untangle every one of the many misconceptions you have about these stories. Brandolini's Law, it takes much more energy to refute nonsense than it takes to create it. It only took you five seconds to say "she wanted to impress the Source with how great her power was" but for me to rebut that, I have to go and get a scan, and basically spoon-feed you the meaning of it, in order to clarify that what you said was clearly and obviously wrong.
I do not have the time to do that every time you say something that doesn't make any sense in a storyline, because you do it almost constantly and it isn't my job to read DC comics on your behalf. Simply put, you only have so much leeway before I am just going to say "this is nonsense" and move on, because any argument so bad that I need to just dismiss it off-hand is bad enough that it has no chance of being approved, so it isn't worth my time to personally rebut.
I have already explained why this assertion does not make any sense given the context of the story, and the fact you've given no evidence of it.
The default assumption is that if his creation contains "the Source Wall" then it contains "the Source Wall." You are the one advocating for completely arbitrarily divisions, but you have absolutely no evidence for this.
I am entirely unconcerned with whose problem you see it as, or whether or not you think I should be making true statements about the story if I can't be bothered to read it to you personally if you aren't already aware. The site functions on the approval or rejection of CRTs, so having a woefully unconvincing argument, or having an argument that relies on ignoring information that anyone who read the story would already have, is in fact your problem, because it means this CRT is probably going to go absolutely nowhere.
There are many explanations by forums talking about DC Cosmology and some good ones. The Void being 1-A
vsbattles.fandom.com
i dont understand how bro somehow went from 1-C to 1-AThere are many explanations by forums talking about DC Cosmology and some good ones. The Void being 1-A
Elizio33/Sandbox4
it is mostly this scan about how no matter how big creations get they can never fill the void.
Hmmmm this is debatable
That's Argument from Incredulity, Hitchen's Razor, Argument from Ridicule, and Ad Hominem. He hasn't been toxic while you have been uncivil all the time. Not to mention, you said Perpetua was Uni, CAS was Multi-Solar, etc, claims that are nonsense to us. Yet we wouldn't say that it's nonsense and hence we won't address it. We will address it.
We asked you for proof on your explanation and you didn't give it, meaning we can dismiss it. Further, even if we accept your explanation as true, that doesn't actually explain why the Host would still know of full Source Wall. Lastly, you haven't proved the reference was to the true Source Wall, and he has proved that Source Wall exists in all dimensional levels. So by lower interpretation, we use his interpretation.
You're ignoring his arguments. POTM blog explains how feats destroying and affecting The Source Wall doesn't automatically scale to 1-A, as it exists in lower dimensions and the destruction could have affected the lower dimensional Source Wall. Plus, he presented an analogy which you haven't countered.
Read our second point. Plus, even those hypothetical people who "read the story" in your arguments, would have to provide scans and simply saying "the comics say this" is not an argument. Hitchen's Razor exist.
